Rhodesia

[Flbt]

I think that would solve a lot of problems in the USA, if people that owned Real property were the only ones allowed vote, they are usually the ones paying the bills for the freeloaders.

Look into the original voter laws
They were not federal they were state. And that where they should have stayed along with a lot of other things.

 

[bashaw]

I think that went out the window in 1866

& we’ve been going down hill ever since

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I have written about this once before, but this is a good place to recall an equally brutal adjacent conflict took place in what is now northern Namibia and Angola. Starting in 1966 and running until 1990, it was a longer and more complex war than the Rhodesian conflict. It also saw far more direct Soviet Proxy involvement, as conventional Cuban troops participated along with Russians in their advisory capacity. The fighting within Angola continued as a civil war until 2002.

One common narrative to the two wars was the successful Soviet propaganda effort that cast the conflicts as white verses black, successfully ignoring the facts on the ground where the South African backed UNITA movement was native Angolan. Like Rhodesia, initial US and British support, however tepid, eventually collapsed under this racial narrative. For the South Africans and their UNITA allies the end of support forced a South African withdrawal from Angola when on the verge of defeating the MPLA and its Cuban/Soviet sponsors.

One of the most famous units of that campaign was the South African led 32 Battalion known by the MPLA, FAPLA. and SWAPO guerilla forces in Namibia as "Os Terríveis" the Terrible Ones or the "Buffalo Soldiers" for their implacable ferocity. Normally a battle group of Brigade strength, its was composed of anti-Marxist Angolans and some Portuguese officered by South Africans. The unit's founder, creator of its operational tactics, and first commanding officer was Colonel Jan Breytenbach.

Fifteen years ago, I was hunting in the Caprivi, and my young PH was also with the Namibian Park Service. He was something of a frustrated soldier where realistically a military career was essentially closed to him in the Namibian armed forces, such as they are, because he was white. He was fascinated with my career, and asked if I would like to take a day off from hunting to visit the remains of Buffalo Camp which had been the home base of 32 Battalion. I naturally jumped at the opportunity.

I have rarely seen such a forlorn ruin. Breytenbach's name can still be read on the remains of the entrance gate.
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The cemetery was the saddest. Here, the Namibian government it delighted to have the graves returning to the bush. No names were placed on the headstones - only numbers - so as to prevent reprisals against families in Angola.
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The barracks areas are now just foundations, long stripped of every usable piece of wood. The shells of the more substantially built headquarters condonement area has survived better.
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The remains of the hospital operating theater were particularly poignant. There souls could be felt.
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I suppose it is theoretically possible in some future place or parallel universe that a Namibian or Zimbabwean government may be created that acknowledges and protects the resting places of all those who sacrificed so much on all sides during those long conflicts. Sadly, if my own country's recent efforts to erase the Confederacy from the nation's memory is any indicator, I suspect the ghosts of 32 will continue to walk an ever encroaching wilderness alone.
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There’s a member on this forum who was an officer in 32 and Recce serving in SW Africa and Angola, we’ll see if they chime in

 

[Sideshow]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the decline of civilisations by disease. Africa has more than its fair share of tiny’s that can scribble you out. Add a good drought and then a raiding party with a better military doctrine and well your history!
As for Rhodesia not being sparsely populated.
It’s not what was recorded by the first explorers. Also you must remember that the original Rhodesia covered a huge area.

Present day.

I don’t have any of my books on hand at the moment (in Germany for Christmas with luck might even get some hunting in)
But the population increased dramatically once the colonial government had but an end to local warring opened medical facilities (so often overlooked it’s sickening). I’m not saying that they got it right. But comparing it with the scorched earth policies of the warring tribes thanks I’d know which one I’d choose.
Public health interventions mattered
This is one of the most overlooked aspects, and I feel justified in being frustrated about it. The introduction of: basic medical facilities, midwife training, vaccination and inoculation campaigns, suppression of endemic warfare did lead to dramatic population growth in many colonial territories, including Rhodesia. That’s not an endorsement of colonialism as a whole—it’s an empirical observation. Infant mortality fell, maternal survival improved, and life expectancy rose. Those outcomes don’t vanish just because the system that introduced them was morally compromised elsewhere. Moral accounting doesn’t have to be binary.
Where I’d add caution is here: acknowledging that colonial administrations reduced certain forms of violence and disease doesn’t require ignoring coercion, land dispossession, racial hierarchies, or economic extraction. Likewise, condemning colonialism doesn’t require pretending pre-colonial societies were idyllic or static.

History isn’t a courtroom where only one side gets acquitted.

 

[Foxi]

There’s a member on this forum who was an officer in 32 and Recce serving in SW Africa and Angola, we’ll see if they chime in

I am only repeating what farmers from Namibia, who once served as officers and soldiers in the South African army, told me:
"South Africa had overrun Angola, and they hardly felt the active help of the Soviets and Cubans (in their casualty lists, but of course they also had casualties, more from mines than from active combat).
Pressure from the US under Jimmy Carter prompted South Africa to withdraw from Angola.
Today's South African army is only a pale shadow of what it once was. The same applies to the police".
It's hard to believe, but private security companies often guard police stations in South Africa to prevent them from being taken over and their weapons and arsenals looted.

Sic transit.....

 

[RLD]

Zebras donkeys and cows have lived in Africa for thousands of years. They have all been domesticated. Throwing out statements like this only diminishes your argument.

If only it was my statement.

There is some evidence of domestication of cattle in the mid-nile region long periods ago, but not in sub-saharan africa. Maybe a tad in east Africa. But they certainly were not used for farm labour, transportation of goods or industrialization. Kind of an important distinction.

So far we had really left Egypt out of the discussion as they were pretty separate and unique in African development, compared to the sub sahara.

If we want to talk about all of Africa then most of this "Africa never developed anything" approach falls away instantly. Carthage and Eygpt were highly developed forward thinking African cultures.

Shall we add them into the discussion then?

BTW, Zebras cannot be domesticated. Suggesting they can be only diminishes your argument.

What is your argument anyways? Mine is that the main reason that sub saharan africa societies developed differently than european societies was the difference in environment.

 

[Sideshow]

If only it was my statement.

There is some evidence of domestication of cattle in the mid-nile region long periods ago, but not in sub-saharan africa. Maybe a tad in east Africa. But they certainly were not used for farm labour, transportation of goods or industrialization. Kind of an important distinction.

So far we had really left Egypt out of the discussion as they were pretty separate and unique in African development, compared to the sub sahara.

If we want to talk about all of Africa then most of this "Africa never developed anything" approach falls away instantly. Carthage and Eygpt were highly developed forward thinking African cultures.

Shall we add them into the discussion then?

BTW, Zebras cannot be domesticated. Suggesting they can be only diminishes your argument.

What is your argument anyways? Mine is that the main reason that sub saharan africa societies developed differently than european societies was the difference in environment.

Getting there was a major part of the problem. Africa’s geography imposed real constraints on the large-scale movement of people, books, and institutions of learning. The Sahara Desert, while not completely impassable, made travel slow, expensive, and dependent on a small number of tightly controlled trade routes. This meant that ideas could move, but not easily or widely enough to create sustained, continent-spanning scholarly exchange. Overland movement was further complicated along the Nile, where the Sudd wetlands effectively blocked north–south river travel, contributing to long-term cultural and intellectual separation between the Mediterranean world and sub-Saharan regions.
Maritime routes did not offer an easy solution either. Much of Africa’s Atlantic coastline lacked the natural harbors and navigational familiarity needed for early long-distance seafaring, and areas such as the Skeleton Coast were particularly dangerous. These conditions limited sustained coastal interaction until much later technological developments made regular navigation feasible. As a result, coastal Africa did not initially function as an open conduit for knowledge exchange in the way the Mediterranean did.
Despite these obstacles, it is incorrect to suggest that Africa lacked intellectual centers. Knowledge was preserved and produced, but it was regionally concentrated. The Sahara itself housed major centers of learning, most famously Chinguetti in Mauritania, often called the “city of libraries.” Along with Timbuktu, Walata, and Gao, Chinguetti formed part of a Saharan scholarly network that produced and preserved works on astronomy, mathematics, law, and theology. The issue was not the absence of libraries or scholars, but the limited ability of these centers to project influence beyond specific trade corridors.
On the eastern side of the continent, Indian Ocean trade networks were well developed, but access to knowledge was shaped by religious, linguistic, and political boundaries. Scholarly participation often depended on affiliation with Islamic institutions and mastery of Arabic or Persian, creating what could function as a form of intellectual gatekeeping. This was not a complete blockade, but it did restrict who could participate fully in those scholarly worlds.
Taken together, these factors reveal that the primary limitation was not intellectual capacity or cultural sophistication, but scale and continuity. Africa possessed knowledge, scholars, and libraries, yet geographic barriers, high transportation costs, and fragmented networks made it difficult to replicate institutions widely or maintain long-distance scholarly exchange over centuries. The contrast with later European developments lies less in intelligence or innovation and more in infrastructure, accessibility, and the ability to sustain interconnected systems of learning.
I really have to much time on my hands when not working Anyway we have moved a little away from the original OP.

 

[Flbt]

If only it was my statement.

There is some evidence of domestication of cattle in the mid-nile region long periods ago, but not in sub-saharan africa. Maybe a tad in east Africa. But they certainly were not used for farm labour, transportation of goods or industrialization. Kind of an important distinction.

So far we had really left Egypt out of the discussion as they were pretty separate and unique in African development, compared to the sub sahara.

If we want to talk about all of Africa then most of this "Africa never developed anything" approach falls away instantly. Carthage and Eygpt were highly developed forward thinking African cultures.

Shall we add them into the discussion then?

BTW, Zebras cannot be domesticated. Suggesting they can be only diminishes your argument.

What is your argument anyways? Mine is that the main reason that sub saharan africa societies developed differently than european societies was the difference in environment.

But according to the history channel Egypt
Was what it was because of ancient Allen involvement.

Yea I am not serious about that.

 

[RLD]

But according to the history channel Egypt
Was what it was because of ancient Allen involvement.

Yea I am not serious about that.

Come on...everybody loves Von Daniken! Those books were all the rage when I was a young guy!

Appreciate the walk down memory lane on that one.

 

[Wheels]

If only it was my statement.

There is some evidence of domestication of cattle in the mid-nile region long periods ago, but not in sub-saharan africa. Maybe a tad in east Africa. But they certainly were not used for farm labour, transportation of goods or industrialization. Kind of an important distinction.

So far we had really left Egypt out of the discussion as they were pretty separate and unique in African development, compared to the sub sahara.

If we want to talk about all of Africa then most of this "Africa never developed anything" approach falls away instantly. Carthage and Eygpt were highly developed forward thinking African cultures.

Shall we add them into the discussion then?

BTW, Zebras cannot be domesticated. Suggesting they can be only diminishes your argument.

What is your argument anyways? Mine is that the main reason that sub saharan africa societies developed differently than european societies was the difference in environment.

It was your statement. I quoted it in the previous post. Your quote: “Africa has no large native domesticatable beasts of burden”.

You make my point. Africa had animals to use but the native population only used donkeys until colonial times, unlike their counterparts in Asia and Europe.

AI response to cattle in east Africa.

AI response to cattle in Southern Africa.

Deutsch Oustafrika

Kenya. Gerveys are substantially larger than burchels and better draft stock.

Zebra were even used to pull wagons during the East Africa Campaign of WWI. (Not on a significant scale)

BTW: Carthage was no more a native population than the Vandals, Dutch or British.

 

[RLD]

It was your statement. I quoted it in the previous post. Your quote: “Africa has no large native domesticatable beasts of burden”.

You make my point. Africa had animals to use but the native population only used donkeys until colonial times, unlike their counterparts in Asia and Europe.

AI response to cattle in east Africa.

View attachment 734643

AI response to cattle in Southern Africa.

View attachment 734644

View attachment 734645
Deutsch Oustafrika

View attachment 734646
Kenya. Gerveys are substantially larger than burchels and better draft stock.

Zebra were even used to pull wagons during the East Africa Campaign of WWI. (Not on a significant scale)

BTW: Carthage was no more a native population than the Vandals, Dutch or British.

You are not seriously trying to convince people that Zebra are domesticable are you?

 

[Denvir Tire]

It was your statement. I quoted it in the previous post. Your quote: “Africa has no large native domesticatable beasts of burden”.

You make my point. Africa had animals to use but the native population only used donkeys until colonial times, unlike their counterparts in Asia and Europe.

AI response to cattle in east Africa.

View attachment 734643

AI response to cattle in Southern Africa.

View attachment 734644

View attachment 734645
Deutsch Oustafrika

View attachment 734646
Kenya. Gerveys are substantially larger than burchels and better draft stock.

Zebra were even used to pull wagons during the East Africa Campaign of WWI. (Not on a significant scale)

BTW: Carthage was no more a native population than the Vandals, Dutch or British.

There's a huge chasm between 'Domesticated" and "Tame"

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

You are not seriously trying to convince people that Zebra are domesticable are you?

Not I'd want to argue with someone who's got more time in Africa than most on this forum combined, and a much deeper/better understanding of the cultural and historical nuances of Africa having living through the aforementioned periods and seen/experienced everything first hand.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

As one who was born in Zimbabwe, whose parents were born in Zimbabwe and whose parents arrived as young people on a trek of sorts, and whose current four daughters were born here, I can add a little:
Firstly, despite the war we all get on very well and I am sincerely grateful to black Zimbabweans for genuinely accepting the white folks. We get on so we'll because we all need each other, and more recently none of the several demographics, which includes the whites, pose a threat to each other.
My takeaway tenets for a happy post-colonial life in Zimbabwe are simply:
1. No politics
2. Be based, or have a foot in another African country to smooth the ups and downs a little. A combination of South Africa and Zimbabwe is heaven.
3. Buy a pith helmet.

 

[RLD]

Not I'd want to argue with someone who's got more time in Africa than most on this forum combined, and a much deeper/better understanding of the cultural and historical nuances of Africa having living through the aforementioned periods and seen/experienced everything first hand.

B.S. is B.S. no matter how much affection you feel for the source.

 

[Paul K]

I have followed this thread from the beginning. I have found it very interesting and educational, though it has strayed some what from the OP. I hope that it dosen't degrade into insults and name calling as so many threads often do.

Paul

 

[Aaron N]

As one who was born in Zimbabwe, whose parents were born in Zimbabwe and whose parents arrived as young people on a trek of sorts, and whose current four daughters were born here, I can add a little:
Firstly, despite the war we all get on very well and I am sincerely grateful to black Zimbabweans for genuinely accepting the white folks. We get on so we'll because we all need each other, and more recently none of the several demographics, which includes the whites, pose a threat to each other.
My takeaway tenets for a happy post-colonial life in Zimbabwe are simply:
1. No politics
2. Be based, or have a foot in another African country to smooth the ups and downs a little. A combination of South Africa and Zimbabwe is heaven.
3. Buy a pith helmet.

Do you see any desire for change percolating under the surface of the upcoming generations? Or are the locals too busy trying to eek out an existence to look that far ahead?

 

[Scott CWO]

B.S. is B.S. no matter how much affection you feel for the source.

Uh well Wheels is from Tanzania so perhaps he has some firsthand knowledge instead of your book knowledge. You ever been to Tanzania or Zimbabwe?

 

[VertigoBE]

View attachment 734356

Current reading material, when on holiday

I’m about a 100p in, and I must admit this book reads like a gold mine of information nuggets on how to mount a successful counterinsurgency campaign.

 

[Sideshow]

As one who was born in Zimbabwe, whose parents were born in Zimbabwe and whose parents arrived as young people on a trek of sorts, and whose current four daughters were born here, I can add a little:
Firstly, despite the war we all get on very well and I am sincerely grateful to black Zimbabweans for genuinely accepting the white folks. We get on so we'll because we all need each other, and more recently none of the several demographics, which includes the whites, pose a threat to each other.
My takeaway tenets for a happy post-colonial life in Zimbabwe are simply:
1. No politics
2. Be based, or have a foot in another African country to smooth the ups and downs a little. A combination of South Africa and Zimbabwe is heaven.
3. Buy a pith helmet.

Merry Christmas @Kevin Peacocke How’s the 3. Get on when going through the road blocks? Bet you get some great laughs out of wearing one through those. Hope you managed to get a Christmas pudding for this fine day hope the suns out.