Religions, Evolution and related Sciences

[Muskox]

There are plenty of translations that are just fine. That said, I do not view the apocrypha as canon or certain changes made (like the catholic work they did with the Ten Commandments). The crux of the issue at hand is reading into the Bible one’s presuppositions, biases and ideologies (thereby twisting it) instead of letting Scripture speak.

So you’re saying 100% of everything that is written in the Bible is history, is fact, and actually happened?

 

[Ray B]

So you’re saying 100% of everything that is written in the Bible is history, is fact, and actually happened?

I think the present day reader must take into consideration the perspective of the original writers. Some phrases do not make sense given today's perspective- for example, several mentions are made of the Earth's "four corners". The prevailing thought at the time was that the Earth was flat and had four corners. The present perspective is that the Earth is spherical and has no corners. Seeing photographs taken from recent spacecraft seem to support the spherical shape but I suppose there are those that dispute this evidence.

 

[RLD]

I do not. Micro evolution, yes. Macro evolution, no.

So is there a reason you think the process of evolution does not work on a larger scale and only works on a smaller scale? There is certainly a mountain of evidence that speciation (macro evolution) occurs and is occurring.

The kind of approach you propose seems to posit the limited "God of the gaps" and in this case pretty small gaps!

 

[RLD]

The education system at all levels is indeed a problem in that they teach millions/billions of years as fact when it is unprovable secular theory.

The Southern Baptist Convention has not made an official statement on what it believes. That’s the denomination that I most closely relate to and am a member of. That said, I’ve never said that there aren’t other denominations that are just fine and that I have minor issues with. Many people seem to think evolution/old earth isn’t a primary issue, I obviously see it differently. The authority of Scripture is a primary issue. SBC is very individualistic unlike the Catholics. Very sad that that official catholic doctrine.

Why is millions and billions unprovable? There is plenty of evidence those time spans have passed here on earth. Just because you don't believe something doesn't mean it is unprovable.

Old earth is supported by plenty of evidence. Personally I don't think it contradicts with Scripture at all, as Scripture is not trying to be a science text book. But I respect your right to conclude otherwise, I just think it flies in the face of the evidence.

The Catholic doctrine simply engages the world with reason, which we believe to be one of God's great gifts to man. Faith and love are others. People don't know it but Catholic scientists have been at the forefront of many fields over the years, astronomers, biologists, etc. Supporting scientific work has been a part of the Catholic tradition for centuries. There is a lot of reason to believe that some of Galileo's most interesting observations he cribbed from Jesuit astronomers.

 

[mark-hunter]

There is a lot of reason to believe that some of Galileo's most interesting observations he cribbed from Jesuit astronomers.

Galileo put to house arrest. it didnt do good for him

16 hundreds were dark ages.

The Pope ordered Galileo to stand trial. In 1633, Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy". To avoid execution, he officially recanted his views. He was never tortured, never imprisoned in a dungeon, and was instead sentenced to comfortable house arrest for the remainder of his life. He died of natural causes in 1642.

Giordano Bruno, executed:
Bruno did champion the heliocentric (Sun-centered) model and correctly hypothesized that the universe is infinite, containing countless other stars and solar systems. However, his views were rooted in pantheistic mysticism (believing God and the universe are the same physical thing) rather than astronomical observation or scientific data.

The Outcome: After a seven-year trial, Bruno stubbornly refused to recant his religious assertions. He was turned over to secular authorities and executed.

 

[Red Leg]

Why is millions and billions unprovable? There is plenty of evidence those time spans have passed here on earth. Just because you don't believe something doesn't mean it is unprovable.

Old earth is supported by plenty of evidence. Personally I don't think it contradicts with Scripture at all, as Scripture is not trying to be a science text book. But I respect your right to conclude otherwise, I just think it flies in the face of the evidence.

The Catholic doctrine simply engages the world with reason, which we believe to be one of God's great gifts to man. Faith and love are others. People don't know it but Catholic scientists have been at the forefront of many fields over the years, astronomers, biologists, etc. Supporting scientific work has been a part of the Catholic tradition for centuries. There is a lot of reason to believe that some of Galileo's most interesting observations he cribbed from Jesuit astronomers.

It is no use debating a circular argument. Since the enlightenment we have three hundred years of accumulated evidence with respect to the age of the earth and longevity of the ever changing life on it. All @Wishfulthinker580 can offer as in counter debate is that GOD has told him otherwise through his interpretation (or his pastor's) of the BIBLE. With respect to micro-evolution, GOD's WORD is complete in every detail until it apparently isn't. He then concludes with something like if you disagree with him he questions your faith.

It is also amazing that every natural history museum on the planet has colluded to present a collective LIE about creation. As you note, deeply religious geologists, paleontologists, archeologists, and geneticists have developed the collective knowledge collected in museums and libraries about our universe for generations.

Fortunately Christianity offers safe harbor for most of our expressions of belief. Those comfortable with the ritual associated with worship thrive in the ceremony of Anglican and Catholic congregations; those wishing a more emotional release can turn to the evangelical churches; while those preferring strict personal conduct structures have older mainline protestant denominations such as the Baptist and Lutheran churches. I came of age in the Presbyterian church where we were encouraged to have an intellectual relationship with God. Throughout my military career, our church groups were non-denominational, but no less important - periodic memorial services will do that. Today we attend Episcopalian services in a small chapel near our home. Happily, in none of those communities was I or my family required by GOD to embrace being as uneducated as a 14th century serf.

 

[Odinsraven]

It is sad indeed - that any relious book is taken as fact. Concerning UFOs - there is something out there - if there is it provides fundamental questions - that any and all religions will fail to answer.

We are risen apes, not fallen angels, and prove the fact at every step.Sadly

 

[RLD]

Galileo put to house arrest. it didnt do good for him

16 hundreds were dark ages.

The Pope ordered Galileo to stand trial. In 1633, Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy". To avoid execution, he officially recanted his views. He was never tortured, never imprisoned in a dungeon, and was instead sentenced to comfortable house arrest for the remainder of his life. He died of natural causes in 1642.

Giordano Bruno, executed:
Bruno did champion the heliocentric (Sun-centered) model and correctly hypothesized that the universe is infinite, containing countless other stars and solar systems. However, his views were rooted in pantheistic mysticism (believing God and the universe are the same physical thing) rather than astronomical observation or scientific data.

The Outcome: After a seven-year trial, Bruno stubbornly refused to recant his religious assertions. He was turned over to secular authorities and executed.

The Galileo story is way more complicated than people realize.

He worked for many years very successfully with Jesuit scientists on many of his important discoveries and they complimented each other very publicly.

He eventually ended up on trial, not simply because he claimed that the Sun was the center of the solar system, but because he could not get his math to line up to prove his theory correct, and because he called the Pope an idiot in print. One of the great ironies of what happened to Galileo is that he could not get the math to work because of his own religious bias. Kepler wrote to Galileo many times trying to convince him that the planets moved in ellipses (they do) while Galileo insisted that the planets moved in perfect circles (they don't) and one of the reasons he ignored Kepler was because he would not trust a Lutheran. So Galileo never could get the math to work and Jesuit (and other mathematicians) called him out on that. One of the reasons the Jesuits eventually turned against Galileo is because the math wouldn't work and Galileo had become a crusty fellow and got into a public pissing contest with the Jesuits over comets (the Jesuits suggested they were objects outside of the moon, while Galileo insisted that they did not exist and were optical illusions.).

Of course Galileo's version of our system's function could not be proven correct definitely until the discovery of stellar parallax in 1838 or so.

Bruno, while he held some different cosmological ideas than the church at the time, was executed for heresy which included the denial of the holy Trinity, the denial of Mary's virginity, the denial of transubstantiation and the denial of Christ's divinity, claiming Jesus was just a highly skilled human magician. Had Bruno just pushed heliocentrism, and not promoted those radical religious views he likely would have lived as long as Copernicus or Galileo.

 

[DWB]

I am not nearly clever enough to argue with anyone on this thread. But having experienced God's love in my life, I can only share what I have read very recently:

Matthew 11:25-27 NLT
[25] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. [26] Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way! [27] “My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Matthew 11:25-27 (NLT) - At that time Jesus prayed this pray | YouVersion

At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

bible.com

I try not to overcomplicate things for myself too much, hence the "and for revealing them to the childlike"

But I pray that each of you may experience God Almighty through His Grace and Forgiveness.

 

[Ray B]

I have a question for the literalists- The Bible says God created the Universe in 6 days. It also says that He loves everyone and wants everyone to believe. The, WHY did He make the universe to appear that it has been in existence for millions of years and that the present flora and fauna appear to have changed (read: evolved) over time? As making it in this fashion appears to be a stumbling block to those who don't check their brains at the door.

 

[cwpayton]

Why then did He create Prey and Predator animals?

Genisis 1-30 animals were originally all herbivores it seems

 

[cwpayton]

I have a question for the literalists- The Bible says God created the Universe in 6 days. It also says that He loves everyone and wants everyone to believe. The, WHY did He make the universe to appear that it has been in existence for millions of years and that the present flora and fauna appear to have changed (read: evolved) over time? As making it in this fashion appears to be a stumbling block to those who don't check their brains at the door.

It all depends on how you look at it, I see volumes of info in the organization " answers in Genisis" ( these are scientist , and geologist not 12 th grade preachers] for a young earth[ so called], IE , the folds of rock in the grand canyon could not happen with old harden rock , they could only bend like they did if they were like putty or cookie dough" wet flood earth." OF course if your mind is locked in, then , theres no debate.. I believe that faith is required to please God .I dont see that it is in contrast to science ,rather the other way around. Most geologist have a presupposition to disprove the bible so everything they go about is under that premise/.

 

[cwpayton]

And translated umpteen million times to foster control and suit personal agendas.

Not SO, at least the bible I read ,the English standard version ,was compared to the original Hebrew , Greek and Aramaic transcripts. "essentially a literal" translation. By a nonprofit organization. and for the statement" it was written by man" well ,God became man, 'YESUHA' and dwelt among his chosen ones and howd that work out? but If your looking for an out ,thats as good as any .
The first 10 commandments were written by the finger of God in stone and do you keep them ?

 

[cwpayton]

Im still not sure why these are scientific facts, what are you basing this assumption on, carbon 14 or a lecture or book? , because conjecture wont suffice , simply ,no one was around billions of years ago to verify anything, except GOD, so deductive reasoning is subject to review and criticism. the generations of Adam are listed in Genesis so all the billions of years happened before the beginning? because a professor "said so" just wont do. The atomic explosion back in the 40s at the test site created trinity crystal rock, mount saint Helens also spewed up molten rock that tested in millions of years [ carbon 14] but it was formed only decades ago. IF IM required to have faith to believe, IM going to put it in an omnipotent creator not a scientist that cannot prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. isn't science repeatable? In genesis it says{ in the days of Peleg the earth was separated speaking of continent drift ,that happened in recorded history. Christ said" the scripture cannot be broken" John10-35..
My wife makes a butter milk pie from an old recipe from her great grama that rolled into Texas on a covered wagon., but all the ingrediencies could set on the counter till the end of time , but she creates it ,

In Colossians first chapter it says CHRIST created all things in heaven and earth, thats new testament doctrine. So did time create or did Christ? If it took billions of years is it accurate to say " create" seems to me that's a stretch to make a progression of morphed soup onto a unrepeatable earth that supports life in water ,earth and air, with just enough oxygen , light, sun ,and faunna to support all these forms of life. why didnt this " happen " on mars ,the moon , Saturn, if it just requires time. ..................................................................................................................................................................

I love a good debate , the only thing that is not debatable is Christ death and resurrection, that as Paul said ''if it did not happen ,our faith is in vain and we are of all men most miserable.

 

[Red Leg]

Genisis 1-30 animals were originally all herbivores it seems

It all depends on how you look at it, I see volumes of info in the organization " answers in Genisis" ( these are scientist , and geologist not 12 th grade preachers] for a young earth[ so called], IE , the folds of rock in the grand canyon could not happen with old harden rock , they could only bend like they did if they were like putty or cookie dough" wet flood earth." OF course if your mind is locked in, then , theres no debate.. I believe that faith is required to please God .I dont see that it is in contrast to science ,rather the other way around. Most geologist have a presupposition to disprove the bible so everything they go about is under that premise/.

That is absolutely not true. First of all, that is not how the scientific method works. Secondly, your homework assignment is to look into the writings of geologists such as Kenneth B. Miller, Davis A. Young, and Adam Sedgwick. There are many others. Then there are the paleontologists such as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (discovered Peking Man), Mary Anning, Robert Bakker (former curator of the Houston Museum of Natural History and an ordained ecumenical Pentecostal minister -he must host some fascinating church discussions), Ken Campbell, and Mary Higby Schweitzer who discovered soft dinosaur tissue and who has often defended her both her faith and understanding of old earth against the modern uneducated young earth acolytes.

"OF course if your mind is locked in, then , theres no debate"

That statement actually captures my point with respect to biblical literalists almost perfectly. How can one have a debate when the only evidence offered by literalists is the BIBLE, as they interpret it - or don't confuse me with three hundred years of scientific research.

With respect to geologic folds and strata in the Grand Canyon or anywhere else, this pre-geology 101 sort of information. They are formed by deep substrata pressure, colliding tectonic plates, and layers of both volcanic and sedimentary layers. Other than sediment the strata have nothing to do with surface activity such as floods. This is not an opinion.

Grand Canyon’s Three Sets of Rocks (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

 

[rookhawk]

So is there a reason you think the process of evolution does not work on a larger scale and only works on a smaller scale? There is certainly a mountain of evidence that speciation (macro evolution) occurs and is occurring.

The kind of approach you propose seems to posit the limited "God of the gaps" and in this case pretty small gaps!

As an old-earther that understands the process of evolution, both micro and macro, I find the one evolutionary gap to be that of complex structures. We understand how things evolve, but we do not understand how a complex structure evolves out of whole cloth across vastly disparate groups. (e.g. the eye)

This is why I find evidence of an intelligent design that has directed evolution.

 

[rookhawk]

There are plenty of translations that are just fine. That said, I do not view the apocrypha as canon or certain changes made (like the catholic work they did with the Ten Commandments). The crux of the issue at hand is reading into the Bible one’s presuppositions, biases and ideologies (thereby twisting it) instead of letting Scripture speak.

It would behoove protestants to read the apocrypha. (I'm protestant) While its canonization varies across denominations, it provides critical context for the OT and NT. It is also quoted in the NT and Jesus certainly was familiar with its utility himself. Jesus himself in the NT participated in Hanukkah but all context about that holiday is covered solely in the apocrypha. The most peculiar of the apocyphal books is Enoch, which also has the most context to provide to Nephilim, Giants, Aliens, and other things referenced from Genesis to Ezekiel. Jude in the NT quotes from Enoch indicating at bare minimum it is an important document a Christian or Jew ought to be familiar.

 

[RLD]

As an old-earther that understands the process of evolution, both micro and macro, I find the one evolutionary gap to be that of complex structures. We understand how things evolve, but we do not understand how a complex structure evolves out of whole cloth across vastly disparate groups. (e.g. the eye)

This is why I find evidence of an intelligent design that has directed evolution.

While there are aspects of Dawkins that I despise, his work in that field in books like Climbing Mount Improbable and the Blind Watchmaker do some very interesting analysis of that issue.

 

[Hogpatrol]

A mother attends her son's graduation from basic training. As they march, she remarks "Oh look, everyone's out of step except my Johnny". There are millions of Johnnies carrying bibles and this thread is a testament to that.

 

[Ray B]

A mother attends her son's graduation from basic training. As they march, she remarks "Oh look, everyone's out of step except my Johnny". There are millions of Johnnies carrying bibles and this thread is a testament to that.

Reminiscent of the unit I was in in S.Carolina. We'd be in a formation marching somewhere and everyone was actually in-step, but one Marine "weaved" differently. If only the upper bodies were observed it appeared that he was out of step but watching the feet, everyone was in-step. The person marching us would get upset and yell to get in-step to which the Marine would respond that he WAS in-step. He just swayed differently when he walked.
The conversation is reminiscent of marching in that formation- but don't try to carry the analogy beyond a distant memory.