Religions, Evolution and related Sciences

[AJ Peacock]

I have enjoyed reading the religious discussion that has been occuring here.

I'm far out of my depth from a religious teachings perspective, so the following will certainly shine a light on my lack of scholarly understanding.

I've read the bible (old and new), and can quote very little of it. I read and understood it as a moral guide that was based on the word of God and written by men (with all their failings) (Like Thou Shall Not Kill vs Murder) and 1000 years is but a day and a day is like a thousand years. This tells me that I'm to take the moral lessons of Gods word and live them, but not to worry about any current literal translation that might muddy the waters. I'm certainly not going to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

AJ

 

[Red Leg]

My faith has extra-biblical apologetics. Yours relies on literalist internal critique only. I can be wrong in light of new facts and my faith remains. Yours is either shattered by new data, or relies upon literalism in defiance of facts.

That’s not good. The young earth theory is an explanation in support of literalism, but it is unsupported by the observable universe.

Purely by outcomes, those in my high school that held to your interpretation fell away spectacularly because they put their faith in literalism until shattered. The pragmatic had lasting faith unshattered by the latest discoveries.

Respectfully, your dogma in the non-essentials leads many astray.

In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.

I should preface this by saying as much as I am anything, I am a Calvinist, though with a strong appreciation of Deism, and I agree with you. In my experience, is impossible to have a discussion, much less a debate with fundamentalism - whether a sect or separate religion. Fundamentalism not only relies upon, but demands of its adherents, literalist critique and interpretation only. Were we all in Philosophy 101 we would label such arguments as an appeal to authority through Circular Reasoning. Further, such a belief encourages the creation of a False Dilemma - we must choose between the Bible or science. Anything that even remotely deviates from the group's agreed interpretations (I use the word deliberately) are by definition heresy. It is truly a 14th century approach to any religion. Both the Spanish Inquisition and Taliban would be in full agreement with the mindset if not the specific dogma.

As you note, such literalism is absolutely destructive. It causes the bright fundamentalist high school student following his or her field trip to the Smithsonian Natural History Museum to suddenly find themselves in a crisis of faith rather than in awe the broad reach of the God's creation. I am simply confident that an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God is much much greater than a need to limit man's knowledge and understanding of his universe.

 

[Tanks]

There was no gap in creation and the entire universe is a little over 6000 years old. Your position is actually reliant on what man says, misquoting Scripture and eisegesis. Trying to reconcile what man says with the Bible, not the other way around.

It is heresy to go against what He has said about Himself. He revealed Himself as one God in three Persons. You say there could be more. You are directly refuting what He said. Heresy..

I hope you were being sarcastic and making fun of fundamentalists with Earth and the universe being 6,000 years old. At one time, Church thought the Earth was flat as well.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Another mind bender is the mainstream theory that we may only have 1 electron. Yes, we have nearly infinite protons and neutrons, but something in the maths beyond my understanding suggests that there may only be a single electron, everywhere, in everything, all at once.

Weird.

“Particles don't just exist in one state or location; they exist in a "superposition," meaning they can be in multiple states simultaneously until they interact with their environment and "collapse" into a single outcome.”

This weird Quantum rabbit hole is aligned with almost every ancient culture. Buddhist, Native Americans, cultures that never mingled to share notes. All believe everything is the same thing.

All describe a similar plane or frequency. that everything exists and are the same thing
They use trances, meditation, using specific plants to hallucinate to get on that Frequency.

Now people using Ibogaine describe the experience as a religious experience. They have a hard time explaining exactly what happened. But describe it as going to a place where everything is on the same “frequency”.

 

[WAB]

Evolution is incompatible with science, among other things, entropy.

 

[Altitude sickness]

A better version of what I attempted to explain

“People undergoing psychedelic treatments—particularly with Ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT—often report entering states of profound interconnectedness. This experience, where all of existence is perceived as a unified, simultaneous whole, perfectly mirrors non-dual philosophies found in ancient Buddhism and traditional Native American worldviews”

 

[Jeff505]

Stephen Hawking warned that contacting advanced alien civilizations could be dangerous for humanity, comparing it to Native Americans encountering Columbus. He believed extraterrestrial life likely exists but urged caution, suggesting superior civilizations might be "nomads" seeking to conquer and colonize.

Be careful of who comes to dinner

 

[tarbe]

Basically your argument is “He hit the high points relative to us” I guess? That’s very true in many ways and I don’t disagree to an extent. Though the Bible IS the entire timeline of the universe, from creation to the end.. But on the topic of aliens? I don’t think so at all.. if you’re talking soulless creatures/organisms/plants etc.. plausible but extremely doubtful.

Also, I didn’t say He reveals every single thing in Scripture.. I do however believe that He would’ve mentioned something as major as civilizations on other planets ESPECIALLY if those beings had eternal souls….

The bible speaks of the "time of the end" but never speaks of the literal end of time.

So the obvious question is, "the end of what"?

It is the end of the Aeon...properly translated, the end of the age.

What age? The jews of that time spoke of two ages. The present age and the age of Messiah.

Jews today think they are still waiting for the new age, the everlasting age, the age of Messiah.

The Revelation is clear that the "end" was coming soon to those who received the letter - the 7 churches in Asia Minor. Read the first three verses!

 

[fourfive8]

I once had a dental hygienist argue that the universe was something like 6000 years old based on some biblical interpretation. The discussion began as small talk during a dental cleaning. I dropped it, no need for a dust up.

I think Hawking, mathematically back calculated a beginning point for the universe called the singularity. Einstein mathematically described the cosmic speed limit and the relationship between mass and energy. I don’t believe either could have envisioned the concept that both dark energy and dark matter would have to be used to help explain why the known universe is expanding at an increasing rate, an accelerating expansion, when logically, it should be contracting because of cumulative gravitational coalescence after the initial big bang from a singularity as described by Hawking. I finally gave up trying to fully understand the mathematical gymnastics involved in describing the concept of an Einstein-Rosen bridge. Quantum physics is “relatively” easy to understand compared to that.

“Scotty, give me warp 8… now!”

 

[Flipper Dude]

“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt “

That’s where I’m at in this conversation.

How ‘bout them Astros, huh?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The bible speaks of the "time of the end" but never speaks of the literal end of time.

So the obvious question is, "the end of what"?

It is the end of the Aeon...properly translated, the end of the age.

What age? The jews of that time spoke of two ages. The present age and the age of Messiah.

Jews today think they are still waiting for the new age, the everlasting age, the age of Messiah.

The Revelation is clear that the "end" was coming soon to those who received the letter - the 7 churches in Asia Minor. Read the first three verses!

Read the end of the book you reference

 

[Aaron N]

Don't forget that amazingly fast growing olive tree.

That said, there was indeed a catastrophic event within the memory of modern man. It is prevalent in the mythology of all the major civilizations of Mesopotamia and in Eastern Asia. A number of modern scientists seem to be coalescing around the Younger Dryes event - likely an impact, which occurred approximately 12,900 years ago. In virtually all the cultural histories, it is described as a flood.

This of course did not "wipe out" mankind but for eight people, but it does seem to have been catastrophic enough to have reset the clock on the development of human civilization. For instance, the Clovis Culture, which seems to have extended across most of North America at its height (identical highly refined stone tools), seems to have vanished completely and was gradually replaced by a host of localized hunter gatherer ones using tribal specific tool designs.

Such an event would likely have also had a very destructive effect on much of the fauna (much of it mega-fauna) of that period.

I’m not debating the fact that cataclysmic events did not occur, not in the least. I’m just asking for the biblical explanation as to why we have fossils of animals that don’t exist anymore when two of every species were saved by Noah.

 

[Brent in Az]

Religion & politics. Creating animosity since they came into existence.

You guys do know that debating long held religious beliefs fosters animosity?

You do know that?

To what end?

Now politics, that’s a different story

I enjoy fostering that animosity.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

That is the problem with fundamentalism. It can't be debated and is immune from uncomfortable facts or research because it is anchored in a circular belief system. The response to every logical argument is the Bible says so - or perhaps more correctly, my sect's interpretation of the Bible says so.

It’s pretty clear on the subject. You either believe what it says or you don’t.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Like what though? I thought two of every animal was rounded up and put on a boat? Where did the pairs of mammoth, t-Rex’s and such go after they left the ark?

We all know the only animals that didn’t make the Ark were the unicorns, as the Irish Rovers so thoroughly documented

What do you mean like what? And yes two of every animal except for a select few with more. What do you mean “where did they go”? They spread out afterwards and have gone extinct since.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

There are some who believe in the young earth creation theory, that God made man and dinosaurs on the same day 6,000 - 10,000 years ago.
Yet, there are carbon dated fossil records going back many millions of years.
Pretty deep stuff, and no clear explanation in the Bible that explains those prehistoric events.

Except God said he did it in 6 literal days and then gave genealogies you can actually teach and come up with a pretty accurate amount of years. So one source is wrong and God can’t be wrong so that leaves one option.

Rookhawk accused me of leading people astray but evolutionism and old earth has led more people into atheism and agnosticism than anything

 

[Aaron N]

What do you mean like what? And yes two of every animal except for a select few with more. What do you mean “where did they go”? They spread out afterwards and have gone extinct since.

So on the sixth day, dinosaurs(because they’re land animals) and humans were created, and co-existed together. Then ten generations later Noah was warned, dinosaurs were loaded onto the ark along with every other beast, survived the flood, and then went extinct (in an extremely short time) without ever being written down (writing was beginning around this time in Mesopotamia and Egypt), or being depicted in cave art?

Also, were Adam and Eve Homo Sapiens?

 

[rookhawk]

What do you mean like what? And yes two of every animal except for a select few with more. What do you mean “where did they go”? They spread out afterwards and have gone extinct since.

You do realize that the literal measurements of the ark would not be able to hold even two of every kind of bird in the country of Costa Rica? Literalism doesn't work. Even every animal endemic to the middle east wouldn't fit. Even if we just say a pair of each "Kind" (canid, feline, cervid, psittacine, falconiform, cetacean, mollusc, etc.) is all that was on the ark, it wouldn't fit. Literalism fails.

When the term "the whole world" was used in Hebrew, it was a general expression "the known world". The latest research indicates a worldwide catastrophe around 11,600 years ago, likely repeated asteroid strikes that led to tremendous hellscapes, coupled with super heated glaciers causing instantaneous flooding over much of the world. The Sahara as a jungle became the desert we know in less than 100 years. The nano diamonds and trace platinum found worldwide in that geologic layer supports it.`

 

[Aaron N]

You do realize that the literal measurements of the ark would not be able to hold even two of every kind of bird in the country of Costa Rica? Literalism doesn't work. Even every animal endemic to the middle east wouldn't fit. Even if we just say a pair of each "Kind" (canid, feline, cervid, psittacine, falconiform, cetacean, mollusc, etc.) is all that was on the ark, it wouldn't fit. Literalism fails.

When the term "the whole world" was used in Hebrew, it was a general expression "the known world". The latest research indicates a worldwide catastrophe around 11,600 years ago, likely repeated asteroid strikes that led to tremendous hellscapes, coupled with super heated glaciers causing instantaneous flooding over much of the world. The Sahara as a jungle became the desert we know in less than 100 years. The nano diamonds and trace platinum found worldwide in that geologic layer supports it.`

I can respect someone like @Wishfulthinker580 who takes every word as the literal truth more than someone who pick and chooses what they believe or how they interpret scripture to fit within their own beliefs. In my mind organized religion has to be an all or nothing game.

 

[Red Leg]

Except God said he did it in 6 literal days and then gave genealogies you can actually teach and come up with a pretty accurate amount of years. So one source is wrong and God can’t be wrong so that leaves one option.

Rookhawk accused me of leading people astray but evolutionism and old earth has led more people into atheism and agnosticism than anything

Someone said God did it in 6 days. Unless we have decided to become Muslims and believe that every word in the bible, that has been translated, edited, debated, and reedited for 2600+ years in the case of the Old Testament is somehow an exact transcription from God. I take the view that the important point is that God did it, not the timing. The one discourages belief among educated people while the latter encourages belief.