Question For Our German & Austrian Members

[Pondoro]

First, there is a significant price difference between Heym and Krieghoff.. I have both vintage british doubles in .450/400 and .475 and a .470 Krieghoff..the latter for two reasons.. The cocking mech. is an added safety.. The traditional safety on double rifle is not to be trusted during african carry..numerous accidents.. If the Krieghoff is lost I take out the insurance and buy a new one.. I bought mine for $6000,- on the used market..in like new condition..that was a helluva lot of double rifle for the price..

If you look at a lot of the prewar british boxlock doubles such as Jeffery the engraved animals look like something out of a comic book..as some of the current Krieghoffs So what..?

The Krieghoff is also easy to scope, wich I did..it regulates well to 60m with Hornady, Federal (at least the lot I have) and current Norma factory.. Also easy to load for.. I get 2170fps with Hornady, thats 5200 foot pounds..

There must be more reasons that many african PH´s use these rifles and are content with it..

 

[AZDAVE]

Like others I am not German or Austrian, but have spent a few years living there.

I have owned a hyem 55B in 7x64 that shot extremely well!! I have handled 88 and 89 series.
The 88 to me feels blocky and clunky to me but the 89 feels more like a classic english double. The owners of the rifles I handled shot them well and they were in the 2in at 50 meters 4 shot groups with factory ammo and just under 2 with tailored handloads.

I currently own a Krieghoff 500/416. It shoots under 2 in at 60 meters with my handloads. The factory hornaday solid shoot very well but the softs have been used to acquire once fired brass. I like the cocker decoker safety. It is just another manual of arms for that specific rifle this double fits me to a T.
I put a RMR on the rifle for a hyena night time hunt and kept it there since it tighten up my groups significantly over irons so it has earned a place on my Krieghoff.

Both are very good doubles.

 

[steve white]

First, there is a significant price difference between Heym and Krieghoff.. I have both vintage british doubles in .450/400 and .475 and a .470 Krieghoff..the latter for two reasons.. The cocking mech. is an added safety.. The traditional safety on double rifle is not to be trusted during african carry..numerous accidents.. If the Krieghoff is lost I take out the insurance and buy a new one.. I bought mine for $6000,- on the used market..in like new condition..that was a helluva lot of double rifle for the price..

If you look at a lot of the prewar british boxlock doubles such as Jeffery the engraved animals look like something out of a comic book..as some of the current Krieghoffs So what..?

The Krieghoff is also easy to scope, wich I did..it regulates well to 60m with Hornady, Federal (at least the lot I have) and current Norma factory.. Also easy to load for.. I get 2170fps with Hornady, thats 5200 foot pounds..

There must be more reasons that many african PH´s use these rifles and are content with it..

You are correct--I have seen British shotguns beyond what I could afford display engraved "flying turnips" for birds, lol.

 

[rookhawk]

You are correct--I have seen British shotguns beyond what I could afford display engraved "flying turnips" for birds, lol.

The Spanish guns have a similar, special insult. "Flying Bowling Pins" was a common motif. If you squint and use wild imagination, I guess it could be a duck?

 

[Red Leg]

The Spanish guns have a similar, special insult. "Flying Bowling Pins" was a common motif. If you squint and use wild imagination, I guess it could be a duck?

One of my favorite guns in the gun room is an AYA Super 37 built in the seventies. It is a copy of the pre-war Merkel. However, the locks are decorated with running pheasants that more closely resemble a pack of velociraptors than any game bird.

 

[mdwest]

The Spanish guns have a similar, special insult. "Flying Bowling Pins" was a common motif. If you squint and use wild imagination, I guess it could be a duck?

My AyA No 3 is a wonderful gun... but... whatever the bird is that has been engraved on the sides resembles a seagull thats just received a botox treatment..

I think its supposed to maybe be some sort of eagle? but.. the only word I can use to describe it properly is "horrible" lol..

 

[rookhawk]

One of my favorite guns in the gun room is an AYA Super 37 built in the seventies. It is a copy of the pre-war Merkel. However, the locks are decorated with running pheasants that more closely resemble a pack of velociraptors than any game bird.

I've owned said AYA 37 with flying bowling pins, this one is better than 90% of them they made, but still a little "rough":

 

[Levubu]

I am German, but not a gunsmith. As a layman, I would say that there is no difference between these two companies when it comes to reputation and quality. I own a Krieghoff Classic Big Five and I love it. I am absolutely thrilled with their safety features. I wouldn't give up the Krieghoff for a Heym.

 

[One Day...]

I am in equal measure appalled and saddened if Krieghoff really is allowing its American distributer/representative to address regulation issues with a drill bit. Admittedly, there is a fairly widely held, however politely expressed contempt for American gunmakers in Europe. It is quite possible Krieghoff management assessed our market and reached the conclusion that any method that quickly addressed the issue - in this case tighter regulation - was irrelevant to the vast majority of American gun owners.

Amen!

 

[One Day...]

A credible member of this forum informed me about his experiences with Krieghoff and their dremel regulation.

In a PM, he wrote:
“I know this sounds hard to believe. But when I was dissatisfied with the 3” group of my Krieghoff Big Ten, I talked to the US rep and he said they would regulate it for $300.

I thought wow that’s great. until I learned how they did it.

They actually do the same thing as Sabatti. he says they use a mill and remove material from one side of the crown until they can move one bullet over.

He then said 3” was good regulation”

I guess a mill is a bit of a step up from a hand-held dremel (at least a mill provides control of the cut, angle, etc.) but I am with Red Leg on this one: what a shame...

Of maybe more appropriately: how sad indeed...

Thank you for the response rookhawk.

Happily, I never experienced any of that. As indicated on the add when I sold my K Gun, mine was quite satisfactory:

The muzzle of my K Gun showed no evidence of "bubba smith" regulation.

Krieghoff regulation target serialized to the rifle.
The 2021 date reflects when the red dot mounting plate was installed, not when the rifle was made.

Norma PH Woodleigh 500 gr solids @ 50 yards. The squares on the target are 1".

Norma PH Woodleigh 500 gr softs @ 50 yards. The squares on the target are 1".

Barnes TSX 500 gr @ 50 yards. The squares on the target are 1".

Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer 500 gr @ 50 yards. The squares on the target are 1".
The red dot needed to be clicked 3 clicks down if this ammo was used for hunting.

Hornady DGS 500 gr @ 50 yards. The squares on the target are 1".
The red dot needed to be clicked 2 clicks down if this ammo was used for hunting.

Interestingly, the 100 yd group with the Barnes TSX was about as good as the 50 yd group, indicating that the barrels convergence was about perfect for that load. I did not test fire at 100 yd all the loads I tested at 50 yd, as I was satisfied with the Barnes TSX ammo availability, reliability and performance on game, although I must also say that I never had a bullet performance issue with the bonded DGX, hence I considered the rifle good to go with about anything I could procure in camp, should my ammo have been lost in transit, which it never was.

I do not think that there is another double in my future -- as indicated, as found happiness with the R4, and I now spend my money hunting rather than collecting rifles anymore -- but should there be one, the Blaser S2, the K Gun, the Heym 88B, and the Chapuis Brousse (is Elan just a re-name or a different rifle?) would all be in consideration. Maybe the Merkel 140 too, although I have forever a bad taste in my mouth due to a broken internal hammer on a sidelock 20 gauge, but admittedly it was from East German production,

 

[One Day...]

Fat finger syndrome: read above "I found happiness with the R8".

Last thought: I am not shocked by Krieghoff being satisfied with a 3" spread. My K Gun spread 1" to 2" barrel to barrel depending on load, but in reality, truth be told, even a 4" spread is 'minute of Buff or Ele' in real life, especially when fired off hand when the shooter himself spreads a lot, repeat: a lot, more than the rifle..................

 

[SStomcat]

As to K-gun double rifles: the barrels cannot be re-regulated and are often regulated with a dremel.

No they are not. - I’m simply appalled how un verified information from net can be used to tarnish a brands image -
No, Krieghoff does not use a Dremel tool for regulating their double-barreled rifles
Krieghoff employs a more sophisticated and precise method for barrel regulation:

• Muzzle Adjustment Device: Krieghoff double rifles and drillings feature a "muzzle adjustment device" or "barrel adjustment device" that allows for the precise regulation of the barrels. This system uses set screws and a hex (Allen) key to mechanically adjust the points of impact, eliminating the need for the traditional, time-consuming process of repeatedly soft-soldering, shooting, and unsoldering the barrels.
• Factory Service: Krieghoff's US operations in Pennsylvania offer barrel regulation services, which can be done to match a hunter's preferred ammunition load, utilizing their adjustable system. This is a professional service, not an ad-hoc process using a Dremel.

 

[steve white]

Fat finger syndrome: read above "I found happiness with the R8".

Last thought: I am not shocked by Krieghoff being satisfied with a 3" spread. My K Gun spread 1" to 2" barrel to barrel depending on load, but in reality, truth be told, even a 4" spread is 'minute of Buff or Ele' in real life, especially when fired off hand when the shooter himself spreads a lot, repeat: a lot, more than the rifle..................

I disagree with minute of ole--the brain is only the size of a football. I would hate for 3" off to get someone killed with a marginal shot that would have been OK with a bolt action.

 

[SStomcat]

Straight from the horses mouth

 

[rookhawk]

No they are not. - I’m simply appalled how un verified information from net can be used to tarnish a brands image -
No, Krieghoff does not use a Dremel tool for regulating their double-barreled rifles
Krieghoff employs a more sophisticated and precise method for barrel regulation:

• Muzzle Adjustment Device: Krieghoff double rifles and drillings feature a "muzzle adjustment device" or "barrel adjustment device" that allows for the precise regulation of the barrels. This system uses set screws and a hex (Allen) key to mechanically adjust the points of impact, eliminating the need for the traditional, time-consuming process of repeatedly soft-soldering, shooting, and unsoldering the barrels.
• Factory Service: Krieghoff's US operations in Pennsylvania offer barrel regulation services, which can be done to match a hunter's preferred ammunition load, utilizing their adjustable system. This is a professional service, not an ad-hoc process using a Dremel.

Don’t argue with me, argue with real world testimonials on this forum.

 

[SStomcat]

Whoa, no arguments here — I left my boxing gloves in the truck. I’m just adding my own real-world experience to the mix. Think of it as another testimonial, just with fewer typos and more mileage.

 

[rookhawk]

Whoa, no arguments here — I left my boxing gloves in the truck. I’m just adding my own real-world experience to the mix. Think of it as another testimonial, just with fewer typos and more mileage.

One thing that isn’t adding up is to date, I have never seen a Krieghoff with an adjustable muzzle, whereas your post states that’s a feature on all their rifles. I would infer that what I have seen with my own eyes indicates that this WAS a problem and they have now changed their method of regulating the wedge in the recent era.

The only Krieghoff DRs I’ve handled were their Big 5 lineup.

 

[Altitude sickness]

No they are not. - I’m simply appalled how un verified information from net can be used to tarnish a brands image -
No, Krieghoff does not use a Dremel tool for regulating their double-barreled rifles
Krieghoff employs a more sophisticated and precise method for barrel regulation:

• Muzzle Adjustment Device: Krieghoff double rifles and drillings feature a "muzzle adjustment device" or "barrel adjustment device" that allows for the precise regulation of the barrels. This system uses set screws and a hex (Allen) key to mechanically adjust the points of impact, eliminating the need for the traditional, time-consuming process of repeatedly soft-soldering, shooting, and unsoldering the barrels.
• Factory Service: Krieghoff's US operations in Pennsylvania offer barrel regulation services, which can be done to match a hunter's preferred ammunition load, utilizing their adjustable system. This is a professional service, not an ad-hoc process using a Dremel.

Those barrel adjustments don’t exist on the big bore Krieghoff. Call Pennsylvania and simply asked if they can change your POI in Pennsylvania without sending it back to the factory. Ask them how much. Then ask how they do it. They use a mill somehow to remove material from one side of the crown. Unless their process has changed in the last 2 years.

 

[rookhawk]

From Krieghoff's website, there is no mention of a "allen key adjustable regulating wedge" anywhere on their dangerous game double rifle features page.

There is this picture at the bottom of the page of 4 muzzles, *maybe* that is what I see on the one on the right which is a small bore double rifle, but it is not present on the large bore third from the left.

 

[grand veneur]

I just have read several Krieghoff catalogs in German and could not definitively determine which rifles have a muzzle adjustment and which don't have one. The models Classic and Optima seem to have it as serial standard equipment, but it also appears that a muzzle adjustment can be optional on other models.