Power level..How do you ever rationalize going back down?

I agree with the idea of using a suitable caliber for the game pursued. I will use my Ruger ranch 5.56 with 70g Barnes for whitetail at home but I’ve also used my .375 on deer as well. If I am dreaming of Africa that day I may just grab the .375 just because I can! My 6.5 PRC would be the obvious choose for deer if one of you was to look through my gun collection. Of course there would be some of you who might want me to pick up a trusty .30-06 or an old .243. Having choices makes it fun.
Philip
@phillip Glass
With a bit of imagination, an angle grinder and some basic wood working tools I'm sure you could turn that useless 243 into a set of shooting sticks for the bigger calibers.
Failing that use it for tomato or flower stakes.
Bob
 
Well today I stepped down again by using my 243 for some biltong... The silencer did its job and the results are evident, 2 shots 2 bucks 2 meters apart. Sometimes (not always) the smaller calibers is just more fun to shoot.

And yes, that is a high fence. No, they are not caged in animals, they just happened to graze near the fence when I shot them. View attachment 439249
@Eduard_ Venter
Lucky the were only at 2 metres otherwise the 243 wouldn't have worked. Ha ha ha ha ha ha
 
I think you were looking for the long range hunting forum, this forum only helps guys buy bigger guns LOL! Steve Rinella had me convinced the 7RemMag would hunt the world, I join this forum, and next thing I know a .375 H&H seems like a small caliber LOL!
 
@CoElkHunter
I have a slight feeling that whatever you choose you will not be undergunned for PG hunt! ;)
@mark_hunter
I think @CoElkHunter should sell his little 338 and get a Whelen but only if he can handle it. For some strange reason he likes to be undergunned and use his 338. Maybe you can educate him he won't listen to me. Strange.
Bob
 
Great to know! That puts my mind at ease. I’m good to 300yds with what I have. Thanks! Appreciate it!
@CoElkHunter
Ifn you can't get closer than 300 yards to game y'all needs to go back to hunting 101 and read te part on stalking game.
Bob
 
The curse of would-be-snipers...

There, I said it!

I do not often refer my relationship with Huntershill in my posts, purposefully I might add, but this time I will because it is germane to the discussion.

To make a long story short, and based on private candid discussions in the PH shacks of the 6 safari camps that Huntershill own and operate, with over a dozen PHs: for every 600 or 800 yards killing shot on YouTube, there are many, many - let me repeat: MANY - shots fired. Thank the good Lord a lot of these shots are misses, but a number are also hitting animals at random from shot jaws to gut wounds.

In the best cases, another half dozen rounds bring the animal down from sheer lead weight. In the worst cases, the animal escapes and dies miserable later. In many cases, a precious hunting day, or two, is lost tracking a wounded animal.

In summary, aside from the rather uncommon clean kill at 600 or 800 yards, the animal suffers entirely needlessly. This is unethical. Period.

Please, spare me rushing to bang the keyboard and to lick the stamp for the hate mail, I personally ring 12" steel at 1,000 meters on a fairly regular basis with my civilian clone Mk13 rifle (Accuracy International chassis with long action Remington 700 receiver and .300 Win Mag 5 groves Remington Defense barrel), so I know darn well that it can be done, but there is very little in common between taking out the Kestrel and ballistic App, locking front bipod and rear monopod, doping the wind on a flat well known range, shooting without "trophy pressure" at an immobile target, etc. ... and hunting.

Yes, there are clients doing all this in Africa, and doing it well, but they are few and far between, and even if in my own mind they are robbing themselves of the best part in their safari: the hunting, as long as they do it well, I recognize that it is their right. But with them, the PH's challenge is NOT to hunt, but to find the shooting-range-like setting that will allow such shots. This is rarely the case, although it can be done from hillside to hillside in the Eastern Cape, but Lord oh Lord, the wind factor shooting across canyon or small valley...

And yes, there are also the clients who think they can, but cannot, and litter the landscape with wounded animals... Long range shooting is not so much about the hardware, which is easy to purchase, but about the technical knowledge, training and practice, which few have...

The curse of the 6.5 Creedmoor...

To add insult to injury, because darn few can actually carry all day a heavy weight appropriate caliber sniper rifle (.300 to .338), and because darn few enjoy the recoil of a hunting-weight rifle of .300 to .338 caliber shooting prone, we now see a flood of low-recoil, long-range TARGET rifles.

I have nothing personally against the 6.5 Creedmoor (it is certainly as good as my 1903 6.5x54 MS which needs no introduction), but WHEN WILL FOLKS FINALLY UNDERSTAND THAT A 6.5 CREEDMOR BULLET AT 800 YARDS DOES NOT CARRY THE ENERGY NECESSARY TO KNOCK DOWN RELIABLY A KUDU?

The problem with these paper-punchers, that have genuine 600 to 800 range potential, is that even if there is a lethal hit, larger animals (Kudu, Wildebeest, etc.) may not even register the hit, and it is generally too far to hear the slap of the bullet. So what should the PH do: follow every animal shot at, on the potential that it may have been hit?

Shooting or hunting?

Yes, Red Leg, CoElkHunter, Kevin Peacocke, mark-hunter, uplander01, etc. are obviously right: there is no need for 600 to 800 yards shooting in Africa, and yes, this is shooting, not hunting.

Does this mean that BDC scopes are bad? Not necessarily. I now use BDC scopes because they allow more precise bullet placement even at 200 or 300 yards, not shooting at the proverbial "boiler room" or 6" to 12" (depending on animal size) "vital area" but shooting precisely at the top of the heart.

This is especially beneficial when hunting small PG and MG (Mountain Game), Vaal Rhebok comes to mind. Even the .257 Wby 100 gr drops 5" at 350 yards when sighted for a + or - 3" MPBR...

This is also especially beneficial when hunting PG with heavier one-rifle-safari calibers such as the .375 H&H 300 gr, which suffer a bit from rainbow trajectory. Sure, "over the back" hold works, and even "one foot over the back" hold can work, but there is little arguing that turning the BDC to 325 and drilling precisely the top of the heart of a shy Eland is better...
 
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All solid comments/reasoning for or against Big Bore for Everything & my humble position is simple, “right tool for the job.”

A .458 Lott throwing a 400 - 500 grain round is near the top of the big boy Big Bore listing & kinda like a home builder showing up on site w/ only a sledgehammer.
The choice of the .458 Lott was really one of those things where it came up as the most powerful of three rifles I had recently fired when the moment appeared. I knew where to lay hands on ammunition and had a lack of confidence in the other rifles. So I went with the open sighted single shot rifle that swings like a...what I should have grabbed in the end...shotgun. The #1 Lott is not a gun I can shoot all day with great confidence and accuracy. My confidence in it stems from the simplicity of just put the bead in the V, squeeze the trigger and it hits where it's aimed at fifty to a hundred yards. In my moment of truth when my nerves got in the way and gave up all the element of surprise, I will never forget that it came through simply and effectively.

I also recognize that there's a better rifle in a smaller caliber for this job next time. What I'm trying to get after is the effective determination of the right tool for the job and how does one develop the confidence there again?
 
Thanks Mark! You too have helped ease my concern over having to shoot at animals over longer distances than what I’m comfortable with. I just bought a set of bipod shooting sticks and have been trying out the best hand and rifle placement from a standing position. Haven’t shot from them yet, but they seem much steadier than my usual shooting positions using a military style sling. Thanks!
@CoElkHunter
Mate get hold of a set of viper sticks. You won't be disappointed. You will have a benchrest in the bush.
 
@CoElkHunter
Mate get hold of a set of viper sticks. You won't be disappointed. You will have a benchrest in the bush.
I bought a Bog brand bipod. Extends to 72" (most I've seen are 62" and are too short for me) for standing and the legs fold for a kneeling shooting position. It has sharp titanium pointed tips inside the retractable rubber pole bases for a sure grip on the ground or for beating on something/someone. Doubles as a walking stick for climbing the giant African mountains. $36 US after Black Friday discount. Yahoo!
 
I choose my rifle not just for the game I will hunt but the conditions I will be hunting in. For example, I have a .223, a .30/.30, a youth model .243, a .25/06, a .30/06 and a .300 win mag (and up) for my local whitetail hunting, This last week hunting out of a stand, I chose my .25/06 as I could easily see and have open ranges to 300 yards. For a stalk along the creekbeds I will take my .30/30 as it is light and points quickly. late in the season I will take out my .223 for does and the coyotes. I have and may someday again use my .300 win mag but it just isn't necessary. Same with the .06. Recoil and accuracy aren't really an issue with any of the choices, I simply won't pick up a gun that I can't accurately shoot within its (and my) limitations. I don't take the larger calibers out partially because I don't want to spend $5 and up per shot.
 
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The choice of the .458 Lott was really one of those things where it came up as the most powerful of three rifles I had recently fired when the moment appeared. I knew where to lay hands on ammunition and had a lack of confidence in the other rifles. So I went with the open sighted single shot rifle that swings like a...what I should have grabbed in the end...shotgun. The #1 Lott is not a gun I can shoot all day with great confidence and accuracy. My confidence in it stems from the simplicity of just put the bead in the V, squeeze the trigger and it hits where it's aimed at fifty to a hundred yards. In my moment of truth when my nerves got in the way and gave up all the element of surprise, I will never forget that it came through simply and effectively.

I also recognize that there's a better rifle in a smaller caliber for this job next time. What I'm trying to get after is the effective determination of the right tool for the job and how does one develop the confidence there again?
Shoot on with the Lott! I've recently found Lott ammo not much more or about the same as .375 H and H or even .338WM! The entire ammo pricing thing is completely out of whack.
 
@CoElkHunter
Ifn you can't get closer than 300 yards to game y'all needs to go back to hunting 101 and read te part on stalking game.
Bob
Out of the dozen or so elk I've shot on DIY PUBLIC land hunts, the longest shot was about 150 yards. All the rest were within 75 yards. But Colorado isn't Africa, and there I would be hunting with a guide who determines how close I can get and what animal to shoot. I'm at their mercy and abilities.
 
@mark_hunter
I think @CoElkHunter should sell his little 338 and get a Whelen but only if he can handle it. For some strange reason he likes to be undergunned and use his 338. Maybe you can educate him he won't listen to me. Strange.
Bob
Then I would have to get within 50 yards to kill something! Ha! Ha! Ha!
 
Forrest.............would you like to borrow my .600 ? Remember, there is no going back. ..... FWB
There are two little people that sit on my shoulders in times like these...
The evil one says, "Yes!"
The good one says, "We probably can't afford it and it is gonna kick like a mu..."
The evil one slaps him and says, "Go on, tell us more of these things..."
 
The curse of would-be-snipers...

There, I said it!

I do not often refer my relationship with Huntershill in my posts, purposefully I might add, but this time I will because it is germane to the discussion.

To make a long story short, and based on private candid discussions in the PH shacks of the 6 safari camps that Huntershill own and operate, with over a dozen PHs: for every 600 or 800 yards killing shot on YouTube, there are many, many - let me repeat: MANY - shots fired. Thank the good Lord a lot of these shots are misses, but a number are also hitting animals at random from shot jaws to gut wounds.

In the best cases, another half dozen rounds bring the animal down from sheer lead weight. In the worst cases, the animal escapes and dies miserable later. In many cases, a precious hunting day, or two, is lost tracking a wounded animal.

In summary, aside from the rather uncommon clean kill at 600 or 800 yards, the animal suffers entirely needlessly. This is unethical. Period.

Please, spare me rushing to bang the keyboard and to lick the stamp for the hate mail, I personally ring 12" steel at 1,000 meters on a fairly regular basis with my civilian clone Mk13 rifle (Accuracy International chassis with long action Remington 700 receiver and .300 Win Mag 5 groves Remington Defense barrel), so I know darn well that it can be done, but there is very little in common between taking out the Kestrel and ballistic App, locking front bipod and rear monopod, doping the wind on a flat well known range, shooting without "trophy pressure" at an immobile target, etc. ... and hunting.

Yes, there are clients doing all this in Africa, and doing it well, but they are few and far between, and even if in my own mind they are robbing themselves of the best part in their safari: the hunting, as long as they do it well, I recognize that it is their right. But with them, the PH's challenge is NOT to hunt, but to find the shooting-range-like setting that will allow such shots. This is rarely the case, although it can be done from hillside to hillside in the Eastern Cape, but Lord oh Lord, the wind factor shooting across canyon or small valley...

And yes, there are also the clients who think they can, but cannot, and litter the landscape with wounded animals... Long range shooting is not so much about the hardware, which is easy to purchase, but about the technical knowledge, training and practice, which few have...

The curse of the 6.5 Creedmoor...

To add insult to injury, because darn few can actually carry all day a heavy weight appropriate caliber sniper rifle (.300 to .338), and because darn few enjoy the recoil of a hunting-weight rifle of .300 to .338 caliber shooting prone, we now see a flood of low-recoil, long-range TARGET rifles.

I have nothing personally against the 6.5 Creedmoor (it is certainly as good as my 1903 6.5x54 MS which needs no introduction), but WHEN WILL FOLKS FINALLY UNDERSTAND THAT A 6.5 CREEDMOR BULLET AT 800 YARDS DOES NOT CARRY THE ENERGY NECESSARY TO KNOCK DOWN RELIABLY A KUDU?

The problem with these paper-punchers, that have genuine 600 to 800 range potential, is that even if there is a lethal hit, larger animals (Kudu, Wildebeest, etc.) may not even register the hit, and it is generally too far to hear the slap of the bullet. So what should the PH do: follow every animal shot at, on the potential that it may have been hit?

Shooting or hunting?

Yes, Red Leg, CoElkHunter, Kevin Peacocke, mark-hunter, uplander01, etc. are obviously right: there is no need for 600 to 800 yards shooting in Africa, and yes, this is shooting, not hunting.

Does this mean that BDC scopes are bad? Not necessarily. I now use BDC scopes because they allow more precise bullet placement even at 200 or 300 yards, not shooting at the proverbial "boiler room" or 6" to 12" (depending on animal size) "vital area" but shooting precisely at the top of the heart.

This is especially beneficial when hunting small PG and MG (Mountain Game), Vaal Rhebok comes to mind. Even the .257 Wby 100 gr drops 5" at 350 yards when sighted for a + or - 3" MPBR...

This is also especially beneficial when hunting PG with heavier one-rifle-safari calibers such as the .375 H&H 300 gr, which suffer a bit from rainbow trajectory. Sure, "over the back" hold works, and even "one foot over the back" hold can work, but there is little arguing that turning the BDC to 325 and drilling precisely the top of the heart of a shy Eland is better...
One Day,
Thanks for posting this. I personally am NOT a shooter. I don't demonize those that want to bang away at game from long distances as long as they have the ability and terminal cartridge ballistics to do so. I want to hunt game on their terms. If I can't get closer for a shot than I'm comfortable with, so be it. I'm not a trophy hunter but a hunter of unique hunting experiences.
CEH
 
I shot a deer with my 460wby this year and I totally intend to take it coyote hunting this winter. Necessary no, but do I smile everytime I pull the trigger on that big bastard, yes I do. It is also excellent practice for when I do take it to Africa.
20211113_082226.jpg
20211113_153606.jpg
20211113_082220.jpg
I am quit confident I could kill elk with a 243 but I use a 338 lapua Ackley improved. While big is not the correct answer for every body, for those who can shoot them accurately and enjoy doing so I say it certainly doesn't hurt anything. Shoot it and enjoy it. I like the big guns and I suspect there will come a day when I can no longer shoot and enjoy them so I will get all I can get of it now while I can.
 
I shot a deer with my 460wby this year and I totally intend to take it coyote hunting this winter. Necessary no, but do I smile everytime I pull the trigger on that big bastard, yes I do. It is also excellent practice for when I do take it to Africa. View attachment 439315View attachment 439314View attachment 439313 I am quit confident I could kill elk with a 243 but I use a 338 lapua Ackley improved. While big is not the correct answer for every body, for those who can shoot them accurately and enjoy doing so I say it certainly doesn't hurt anything. Shoot it and enjoy it. I like the big guns and I suspect there will come a day when I can no longer shoot and enjoy them so I will get all I can get of it now while I can.
Nice! But put a slip on Limbsaver over the factory pad on that bad boy! You'll be glad you did!
 
One Day,
Thanks for posting this. I personally am NOT a shooter. I don't demonize those that want to bang away at game from long distances as long as they have the ability and terminal cartridge ballistics to do so. I want to hunt game on their terms. If I can't get closer for a shot than I'm comfortable with, so be it. I'm not a trophy hunter but a hunter of unique hunting experiences.
CEH
@CoElkHunter
I am a shooter who hunts because without being able to shoot one can not successfully hunt with a rifle..
Just because I choose to take my game at closer ranges doesn't make me less of a shooter but it makes me more of a hunter.
My little pearl of wisdom for you mate. Just because we are hunters doesn't preclude us from being shooters, it just that our ranges are shorter.
 

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