Politics

[John Wasmuth]

How did I get the car in the first place that it didn’t cost me anything??? Does that even happen?

 

[Alistair]

How did I get the car in the first place that it didn’t cost me anything??? Does that even happen?

Oh, you bought it, sure. But you buy a car with an expectation it's a depreciating asset. They don't last forever and they're usually pretty much worthless by the end of the road. If you've had it 27 years, I think you can say it served it's purpose.

 

[Scott CWO]

Actions and in-actions have consequences. NATO should have stopped Russia when they invaded Georgia instead of letting Putin get his way. The same thing was true in 2014 when he took over Crimea. But the west allowed him to get away with it again. I'm sure he thought that this military adventure would be the same, he'd roll in, take over the country, install a puppet government and NATO would set on their hands.

Had Ukrainian's decided to stand idly by while Putin occupied their country the only question would have been what country would Russia have attacked next? The Baltics, would have been a likely target and being NATO members would have brought Russia into a direct conflict with the west. But fortunately for everyone Ukraine decided to fight for the freedom to decide their own fate.

There seems to be a common theme among supporters of Russia in that they fall back to talking points about Ukrainian corruption while at the same time failing to acknowledge that corruption is and has been a way of life in Russia for decades if not centuries. Why did Russian not become more European in the early 90s when the USSR fell apart? Corruption! Putin and his cronies didn't gather their billions with book sales, they took it from the Russian people. Why was there corruption in Ukraine? Simple, it's been one of Russia's main exports for decades.

I'm not sure how many trillion we dropped in our Iraq adventure but the expenditures on Ukraine are insignificant when compared to that. We're taking the military capabilities of one of our adversaries apart without spending American blood. We're using up some older weapons and gearing up to produce more, those will be produced in American plants by American workers. We're telling the world that we will opposed naked aggression. In the end it looks to me like a bargain.

EXACTLY!

 

[John Wasmuth]

Can’t really compare that to the tax dollars that you continue to pay to buy munitions for other countries can you? You are done paying for the car at some point however taxes go on even into the grave….

 

[Nature Boy]

Actions and in-actions have consequences. NATO should have stopped Russia when they invaded Georgia instead of letting Putin get his way. The same thing was true in 2014 when he took over Crimea. But the west allowed him to get away with it again. I'm sure he thought that this military adventure would be the same, he'd roll in, take over the country, install a puppet government and NATO would set on their hands.

Had Ukrainian's decided to stand idly by while Putin occupied their country the only question would have been what country would Russia have attacked next? The Baltics, would have been a likely target and being NATO members would have brought Russia into a direct conflict with the west. But fortunately for everyone Ukraine decided to fight for the freedom to decide their own fate.

There seems to be a common theme among supporters of Russia in that they fall back to talking points about Ukrainian corruption while at the same time failing to acknowledge that corruption is and has been a way of life in Russia for decades if not centuries. Why did Russian not become more European in the early 90s when the USSR fell apart? Corruption! Putin and his cronies didn't gather their billions with book sales, they took it from the Russian people. Why was there corruption in Ukraine? Simple, it's been one of Russia's main exports for decades.

I'm not sure how many trillion we dropped in our Iraq adventure but the expenditures on Ukraine are insignificant when compared to that. We're taking the military capabilities of one of our adversaries apart without spending American blood. We're using up some older weapons and gearing up to produce more, those will be produced in American plants by American workers. We're telling the world that we will opposed naked aggression. In the end it looks to me like a bargain.

Who supports Russia here? I don't. You need to understand the USA did a coup in Ukraine in 2014 and installed a anti Russian guy. That seems fine but you likely have forgot that we planned to put nuclear missiles into Ukraine, about 10 minutes to Moscow. That started this new cold war and why did we provoke it? I'm not saying Putin or Russia are good, they are not. But starting this over BS and ignoring our real enemy is china is lol stupid. Russia can't do anything to the USA and in the meantime china has been cleaning our clock. Want to hurt Russia? Do what Trump did and pump a ton of oil and cripple their major export. But what has this idiot done? Started a war on fossil fuels and helped Russia, Venezuela, Iran and other horrible regimes that the US has famously called enemies. You're being played by this scam in my view.

 

[Red Leg]

Can’t be true, we’ve been told it hasn’t cost us a dime in money or munitions……..

No one has said that. Certainly not in this dialogue. What I have said, and subsequently illustrated, is how the accounting system works. Neither the US nor any other NATO partner of which I am aware has simply given Ukraine funds to buy weapons. The system does not work that way.

But but these are "old" weapons. Oh yeah, I didn't know stinger missiles were useless. But guess what, we will make some more and guess who gets those contracts?

You obviously have no clue how the armaments business works within government or in the corporate sector. Because most of Ukraine's US weapons are provided through drawdown authority, these primarily represent stock that is placed in reserve to eventually be sold to an security assistance customer. The 100 M777 howitzers and HIMARS launchers we have provided are primarily deactivated weapons from the Marine Corps over the last several years. The residual value of those guns and launchers, as a potential military assistance case is then deducted from the authorization provided by congress. No they aren't a free - but they also no longer hold the value of a newly developed weapons system.

The Stinger is also a good example. Thank you for bringing up. All munitions have a shelf-life. Rockets and missiles are much shorter than dumb munitions. The GLMRS rockets, Stingers, Javelins etc are all our oldest inventory that is being provided. Indeed providing them to Ukraine to use against Russians actually saves some costs. The shelf life of the average solid fuel, guided rocket is classified but it is significantly less than the expected lifespan of the average F-150. If it isn't used, depending upon the munition, it has to be rebuilt, or most often, demilitarized. Having Ukraine demil them at Russian expense is a win win - though perhaps not for the Russians.

 

[Ray B]

You sir are misinformed.

I prefer being misinformed instead of being a brainwashed college sophomore- look up the Latin.

 

[VertigoBE]

Wow, 24hrs not having looked at the politics section, and finding 7 pages of posts!
You guys (well, one in particular) have been busy!

@Nature Boy: I would like to turn your attention to post number 20062 by @mdwest , you might have missed that. The one thing that makes AH stand out from many other forums, is the collection of very senior (in a broad sense) experts in multiple domains that are freely willing to share from their knowledge and insights. Which is a valuable commodity as it is. On top of that being able to debate certain finer points with them is just the cherry on the cake. I do not always see eye to eye with everyone's opinion, but that is fine. Very often my opinion also gets changed by a good argument, and that is fine too. But trying to insult the knowledge of individual experts in their own fields is just not worth it.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

They got almost all of their tech from us and stole what we didn't voluntarily give them.

They haven't got it all of ours however. Semiconductor technology is without question one of if the not the most important items on the list. It's one reason they want Taiwan back in their control, TSMC is the largest fab in the world and on the leading edge.

 

[Nature Boy]

This guy basically sums up my position.



I’m talking about the raw-power potential of Russia—the amount of economic might it has. Military might is built on economic might. You need an economic foundation to build a really powerful military. To go out and conquer countries like Ukraine and the Baltic states and to re-create the former Soviet Union or re-create the former Soviet Empire in Eastern Europe would require a massive army, and that would require an economic foundation that contemporary Russia does not come close to having. There is no reason to fear that Russia is going to be a regional hegemony in Europe. Russia is not a serious threat to the United States. We do face a serious threat in the international system. We face a peer competitor. And that’s China. Our policy in Eastern Europe is undermining our ability to deal with the most dangerous threat that we face today.

What do you think our policy should be in Ukraine right now, and what do you worry that we’re doing that’s going to undermine our China policy?

We should be pivoting out of Europe to deal with China in a laser-like fashion, number one. And, number two, we should be working overtime to create friendly relations with the Russians. The Russians are part of our balancing coalition against China. If you live in a world where there are three great powers—China, Russia, and the United States—and one of those great powers, China, is a peer competitor, what you want to do if you’re the United States is have Russia on your side of the ledger. Instead, what we have done with our foolish policies in Eastern Europe is drive the Russians into the arms of the Chinese. This is a violation of Balance of Power Politics 101.

 

[Nature Boy]

Wow, 24hrs not having looked at the politics section, and finding 7 pages of posts!
You guys (well, one in particular) have been busy!

@Nature Boy: I would like to turn your attention to post number 20062 by @mdwest , you might have missed that. The one thing that makes AH stand out from many other forums, is the collection of very senior (in a broad sense) experts in multiple domains that are freely willing to share from their knowledge and insights. Which is a valuable commodity as it is. On top of that being able to debate certain finer points with them is just the cherry on the cake. I do not always see eye to eye with everyone's opinion, but that is fine. Very often my opinion also gets changed by a good argument, and that is fine too. But trying to insult the knowledge of individual experts in their own fields is just not worth it.

They are insuting me, I never insulted anyone. Why do you simply come to that conclusion? Mob rule?

 

[Alistair]

Can’t really compare that to the tax dollars that you continue to pay to buy munitions for other countries can you? You are done paying for the car at some point however taxes go on even into the grave….

You buy one car, you use it, it gets old, you buy another. Many folks are paying for one vehicle or another for much of their working lives. Even the smart ones are likely to get through 3 or 4 vehicles over 60 odd years. It's the way of the world. Maybe you pay cash in hand, maybe you pay in installments, but it's not a case of buy one car and done, any more than it's a case of buy 1980s state of the art weapons tech and done.

 

[Nature Boy]

They haven't got it all of ours however. Semiconductor technology is without question one of if the not the most important items on the list. It's one reason they want Taiwan back in their control, TSMC is the largest fab in the world and on the leading edge.

Yup and the action biden took was massive, pushed our US workers helping them (I call them traitors). I have no idea why biden didn't pump this up in the press. We finally figured out making a chip at home might be smart. As pathetically stupid as our military and business leaders are, it's at least hopeful as they did do this. But of course the taxpayer is going to pay private companies to make chips and sell them back to us. Lmao. How could any gov't or buisiness be so stupid to not plan for this contingency. I assume the military has hoarded some up but it was still stupid. We can't make a car. lol.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

@Nature Boy as misguided as you are now, I am even more concerned about what happens a few years down the road. What happens then? Well, I assume you will become Nature Teenager and really think you know it all then (more so than your current comments and behavior).

I will try to maintain a positive attitude. I can't help but think that all the positive and diverse role models within the AH membership can help you grow. I hope I live long enough to participate in an adult discussion with Nature Man.

 

[Nature Boy]

You buy one car, you use it, it gets old, you buy another. Many folks are paying for one vehicle or another for much of their working lives. Even the smart ones are likely to get through 3 or 4 vehicles over 60 odd years. It's the way of the world. Maybe you pay cash in hand, maybe you pay in installments, but it's not a case of buy one car and done, any more than it's a case of buy 1980s state of the art weapons tech and done.

Javelin and Stinger missiles are not obsolete weapons.

 

[Alistair]

Javelin and Stinger missiles are not obsolete weapons.

A 1990s car isn't obsolete either. Does the job of getting you to work and back, can hit the speed limit, works ok. But it's not state of the art now is it?

 

[Nature Boy]

@Nature Boy as misguided as you are now, I am even more concerned about what happens a few years down the road. What happens then? Well, I assume you will become Nature Teenager and really think you know it all then (more so than your current comments and behavior).

I will try to maintain a positive attitude. I can't help but think that all the positive and diverse role models within the AH membership can help you grow. I hope I live long enough to participate in an adult discussion with Nature Man.

lol, keep lobbing insults. says all I need to know. I bet you are very smart , lol.

 

[Nature Boy]

A 1990s car isn't obsolete either. Does the job of getting you to work and back, can hit the speed limit, works ok. But it's not state of the art now is it?

Lol, ok. Nice of us to create some warehouse space for the military. I suppose the 80B we left for the Taliban is all "old" too?

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Javelin and Stinger missiles are not obsolete weapons.

lol, keep lobbing insults. says all I need to know. I bet you are very smart , lol.

 

[Nature Boy]

Oh, you bought it, sure. But you buy a car with an expectation it's a depreciating asset. They don't last forever and they're usually pretty much worthless by the end of the road. If you've had it 27 years, I think you can say it served it's purpose.

The United States spends more on national defense than China, India, Russia, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea — combined

lol, if you are gonna say their is not defense contractor fraud then there is nothing else to say on this matter. I'm all for a strong military but this is ridiculous.

Top defense firms spend $1B on lobbying during Afghan war ...​

https://responsiblestatecraft.org › Afghanistan



Sep 2, 2021 — Stephen Semler, co-founder of the Security Policy Reform Institute, found that Congress gave $2.02 trillion to the top five weapons companies — ..