Politics

[thoma018]

Thanks @skydiver386 for that post. Revealing in many aspects.

 

[RLD]

Not to pick a fight, but after examining the claims of the so called "Palestinians", I find most of them to be baseless. If we go back just 150-200 years, most of these so called Palestinians came from Jordan (ethnic Heshemites), or Egypt. They never owned land in the area now claimed as a Jewish State.

To start off, the Jews have maintained a continuous presence throughout the area, including North Africa, Arabia, and Persia for nearly 3,500 years. However, this presence does not mean ownership, of land or anything else, for Israelites or Arabs.

When photography became widespread, it shocked most Americans to learn that the "Holy Land" was so sparsely populated. Samuel Clements, known to the World as Mark Twain described much of the countryside as being devoid of human presence.

Abroad, Mark Twain, 1867.​

Excerpt from The Innocents Abroad, Mark Twain, 1867.​

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. … For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee … Nazareth is forlorn … Jericho lies a moldering ruin … Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds … a silent, mournful expanse … a desolation … We never saw a human being on the whole route … Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country … Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery Palestine must be the prince. The hills barren and dull, the valleys unsightly deserts [inhabited by] swarms of beggars with ghastly sores and malformations. Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes … desolate and unlovely …

Hardly the bustling Palestinian population center they would have us believe.

Even worse for the Arab argument is the fact that most were Bedouins who were perpetual wanderers, and therefore owned no land. Many were actually of Jordanian birth, and possessed Jordanian papers.

The Jews on the other hand, purchased the land from it's Ottoman Turk owners, at exorbitant prices. The Jews actually hold title to much of the land. Even the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini was compelled to admit this to the British Peel Commission in 1937. Al Husseini and his family were on lists of individuals who had sold land to Jews, while at the same time organizing strikes and violent riots that killed dozens of Jews as soon as they moved onto the land.
View attachment 778233
This same Haj Amin Al Husseini spent most of WWII under the protection of Adolf Hitler.
View attachment 778240
Al Husseini eventually helped to form a Muslim SS Division within the German Army. Not so much to be used in combat against Russia or the Western Allies, but to round up and ship Jews in southern Europe and Arabia to the Death Camps.
View attachment 778241
In the picture below, Al Husseini tours the Trebbin Concentration Camp just south of Berlin.
View attachment 778245
View attachment 778246
In this photo dated 1943, Al Husseini meets with Heinrich Himmler. There can be absolutely no doubt that the entire leadership of Muslim "Palestine" knew the fate of the Jews they were persecuting, and shipping to the Death Camps.

The entire story of how the Jews stole the land in 1948, and therefore created Palestinian hatred is a fabrication.

Back to the actual question of who owns the land, and where the so called "Palestinians" are actually from.

The Heshemites and Egyptians who came to the area for work after the Jews established farms, did not own land, or count themselves as "Palestinians" as that was a pejorative term for Jews at the time.

You can't steal land from people who never owned it, or were citizens of other countries.

After the War of 1948, Arab leaders expelled Jewish Communities all over the Arab World, often at gunpoint, and into the new nation of israel. Funny how no Arab source bothers to mention the expulsion and widespread Pogroms against Jews in Muslim Countries.
View attachment 778270
Arabs within Israel were forced out, often returning to the lands their parents had come from prior to 1900. The Arabs call this the NAQBA, or disaster. Arab Leaders, including Al Husseini, told Muslim residents of what became Israel to leave, as it would make it easier to kill the Jews if they were all in one place.
View attachment 778257
Hard to claim your land was stolen when your Leadership tells you to leave so your neighbors will be easier to kill. Then when you lose, those same neighbors don't let you back in?

Bottom line?

I don't feel one ounce of pity for the Arab population in that region, nor do I believe they have much of a legal leg to stand on as far as land ownership. They sowed the wind....

Personally I support the right of Israel to exist as a jewish state.

However some of the history you claim above is a little loose and some even misleading. For instance the Ottomans had banned the sale of land to jews in the area, so to claim they bought it is a bit of a stretch. They amount they were able to buy (through various concealed means) was only a small proportion of what they got after 1948.

Before 1948 arabic peoples made up about 2/3's of the population of the area.

And the vast majority of Israeli jews migrated there after 1948 or are descended from migrants from that period.

You also leave out the uses of terrorism by jews who were trying to create the jewish state of Israel (King David hotel bombing etc).

But rehashing the history of both sides immoral acts is part of the problem. Neither side seems to have the capacity to move forward from their historical greivances. Just like the Balkans. And that bitter, backwards looking approach leads nowhere as far as I can tell.

Whether you have any sympathy for the Palestinians is pretty irrelevant. They exist. There are physically there, and many arab states support them. The Palestine-Israeli problem continues without a solution and both sides suffer for it.

 

[Pheroze]

Personally I support the right of Israel to exist as a jewish state.

However some of the history you claim above is a little loose and some even misleading. For instance the Ottomans had banned the sale of land to jews in the area, so to claim they bought it is a bit of a stretch. They amount they were able to buy (through various concealed means) was only a small proportion of what they got after 1948.

Before 1948 arabic peoples made up about 2/3's of the population of the area.

And the vast majority of Israeli jews migrated there after 1948 or are descended from migrants from that period.

You also leave out the uses of terrorism by jews who were trying to create the jewish state of Israel (King David hotel bombing etc).

But rehashing the history of both sides immoral acts is part of the problem. Neither side seems to have the capacity to move forward from their historical greivances. Just like the Balkans. And that bitter, backwards looking approach leads nowhere as far as I can tell.

Whether you have any sympathy for the Palestinians is pretty irrelevant. They exist. There are physically there, and many arab states support them. The Palestine-Israeli problem continues without a solution and both sides suffer for it.

I am not comfortable thinking of these issues through the lens that Jewish history in the area start in 1948. It’s akin to the way the Supreme Court of Canada used judge Indigenous claims from the arrival of the British. We now recognize that there is an entire history predating that arbitrary date that has to be considered.

 

[RLD]

I am not comfortable thinking of these issues through the lens that Jewish history in the area start in 1948. It’s akin to the way the Supreme Court of Canada used judge Indigenous claims from the arrival of the British. We now recognize that there is an entire history predating that arbitrary date that has to be considered.

It doesn't start in 1948. Nor do I suggest it does. About a third of the population of that area before 1948 was jewish. Jewish history in that area goes back to the bronze age!

But there was a massive, demographic-changing influx of jewish people to that area after 1948. That cannot be ignored, nor can the arabic majority who lived there before 1948.

 

[Pheroze]

It doesn't start in 1948. Nor do I suggest it does. About a third of the population of that area before 1948 was jewish. Jewish history in that area goes back to the bronze age!

But there was a massive, demographic-changing influx of jewish people to that area after 1948. That cannot be ignored, nor can the arabic majority who lived there before 1948.

I did not mean to infer that was your position. A lot of the dialogue- equating the Jewish state to a colonial or invading force - is just false. That point of view seems to be premised on demographics over the last few hundred years. Which, in the scheme of things, is a very short time. But I respect your points. I guess it is analogous to our own situation in Canada and that of the Afrikaans in Africa, in that the last few centuries has changed a lot of what was traditionally the situation, and that has to be acknowledged.

 

[Brent in Az]

Dictatorship

Trump has already put sanctions and visa restrictions on the leadership

Nicaragua's president says country will never hold elections again | Fox News https://share.google/Jv22ayUDpWf3UrXu1

 

[skydiver386]

Personally I support the right of Israel to exist as a jewish state.

However some of the history you claim above is a little loose and some even misleading. For instance the Ottomans had banned the sale of land to jews in the area, so to claim they bought it is a bit of a stretch.

Actually no. What Business is done in public is often 180 from what is done privately. Al Husseini publicly supported laws that forbid the selling of land to Jews, but as the Peel Commission learned, he and his family were on lists of landowners who had knowingly sold land to Jews. A similar situation was found when the British investigated Turkish absentee landlords who had sold land to Jews.

If Jews actually had title to the land, and Arabs had no title because they were not landowners, who does the land belong to?

Living in an area does not mean you own the land, no matter how long you or your family have been there.

They amount they were able to buy (through various concealed means) was only a small proportion of what they got after 1948.

Before 1948 arabic peoples made up about 2/3's of the population of the area.

See above. If a family can show archival evidence of land ownership, they should be allowed to live there, or compensated. Many Arab landowners were allowed to stay and live in Israel. If on the other hand, you are a landless bedouin whose family originated in Jordan, time to pack your bags.

And the vast majority of Israeli jews migrated there after 1948 or are descended from migrants from that period.

The Arabs migrated there as well, attracted by the wealth and jobs created by the Jews.

You also leave out the uses of terrorism by jews who were trying to create the jewish state of Israel (King David hotel bombing etc).

I leave it out because the scale and number of Arab attacks against Jews dwarfs those of Jews against Arabs. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

But rehashing the history of both sides immoral acts is part of the problem. Neither side seems to have the capacity to move forward from their historical greivances. Just like the Balkans. And that bitter, backwards looking approach leads nowhere as far as I can tell.

I disagree. It is not a rehashing of history, but revealing the truth. How many around the World know of the "Palestinian" participation in the Holocaust as I outlined in my last post? How many College graduates have even heard of Haj Ajamin Al Husseini the Mufti of Jerusalem, or his relationship to the Nazis?

Whether you have any sympathy for the Palestinians is pretty irrelevant. They exist. There are physically there, and many arab states support them. The Palestine-Israeli problem continues without a solution and both sides suffer for it.

I'd say there's an easy solution. Heshemites return to Jordan, Egyptians return to Egypt, etc. They don't because those countries already tried that, and what was the first thing these radicals did? They attempted to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan in September of 1970, known as Black September.

BG Zia Al Haq of Pakistan was in Jordan on a training mission at the time. He actually exceeded his mandate, took control of a Jordanian Division and nearly wiped out the PLO in Jordan.

As many as 25,000 PLO Fedayeen fighters may have been killed. Yep, so much for Arab support of the "Palestinian" cause.

If Israel laid down it's arms and surrendered, there would be a massacre. If the fundamentalist Arabs laid down their arms and surrendered, there would be peace.

 

[PARA45]

Dictatorship

Trump has already put sanctions and visa restrictions on the leadership

Nicaragua's president says country will never hold elections again | Fox News https://share.google/Jv22ayUDpWf3UrXu1

This a$$hole fought to “liberate” Nicaragua from the Somoza dictatorship, and here is that POS doing exactly or more than what Somoza did.

 

[Tanks]

f Israel laid down it's arms and surrendered, there would be a massacre. If the fundamentalist Arabs laid down their arms and surrendered, there would be peace.

Can't emphasize the above enough.
Golda Meir said it differently as well: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

 

[Brent in Az]

This a$$hole fought to “liberate” Nicaragua from the Somoza dictatorship, and here is that POS doing exactly or more than what Somoza did.

If the current Democrat party has its way, that is exactly what this country will turn into.
One party authoritarianism.
It's easy for people to vote their way into socialism, but exceedingly difficult to vote themselves out of it

 

[RLD]

I disagree. It is not a rehashing of history, but revealing the truth. How many around the World know of the "Palestinian" participation in the Holocaust as I outlined in my last post? How many College graduates have even heard of Haj Ajamin Al Husseini the Mufti of Jerusalem, or his relationship to the Nazis?




If Israel laid down it's arms and surrendered, there would be a massacre. If the fundamentalist Arabs laid down their arms and surrendered, there would be peace.

Why should college students study the Mufti of Jerusalem when even Holocaust scholars barely mention him as a minor footnote to the holocaust? To gin up more conflict? Should they study famous anti-semities like Ford and Lindberg or Mosely? Is that how you teach the holocaust? Find some peripheral figures to promote hostility against a group you oppose?

In fact one of the world's most important holocaust remembrance centers warns against emphasizing his role as distorting history and falling prey to a political agenda.

To be clear: The Mufti's part in the history of the Holocaust is presented at Yad Vashem in the correct proportion and context, especially in comparison to other figures. Research shows that the meeting between the Mufti and Adolf Hitler had a negligible practical effect on Nazi policy.

Attempting to pressure Yad Vashem to expand the exhibit on the Mufti in the Holocaust History Museum is tantamount to forcing Yad Vashem to partake in a debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is alien to its mission. For Yad Vashem to expand an exhibit for reasons not related to the Holocaust might even legitimize Holocaust distortion by others with nefarious intentions. Yad Vashem will continue to defend the historical truth of this dark chapter of our not-too-distant past, without falling prey to any political agenda.

Your logic is hypocritical and your bias fails you. You want to send away landless Bedoin, but don't call for the same result of millions of Jews who arrived from Europe and Russia equally landless. If "title" is the answer, they are all fucked.

Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going to lay down their arms. It's cute rhetoric in a fairy tale sort of style.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Interesting video on a lot of geographic, economic and ethic issues with Iran.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Similar to the Munich Massacre. Israel is finding and eliminating each and every barbarian that was involved with microwaving babies, killing children in front of parents. Killing parents in front of children. Cutting fetuses from living women.

 

[John Wasmuth]

.

 

[cwpayton]

It was the mention of treble hooking I actually took exception too , there is no argument that can be made for the use of fishing tackle on large game.

It was the mention of treble hooking I actually took exception too , there is no argument that can be made for the use of fishing tackle on large game.

I will disagree ,treble hooks are used to catch alligators, and crocodiles in Australia ,for 1 crocs weigh up to 2000 lbs. So thats a factual argument,

Expresshttps://www.express.co.uk › news › world

Horror as 13ft crocodile mauls man, 22, to death then shows​

7NEWShttps://7news.com.au › news › newcastle-doctor-david-hogbins

Newcastle doctor David Hogbin’s final words before being​

 

[cwpayton]

It doesn't start in 1948. Nor do I suggest it does. About a third of the population of that area before 1948 was jewish. Jewish history in that area goes back to the bronze age!

But there was a massive, demographic-changing influx of jewish people to that area after 1948. That cannot be ignored, nor can the arabic majority who lived there before 1948.

Give it back to the Romans they wiped Palestine clean in 70ad

 

[Red Leg]

I find Israel's claim to their current boundaries both easy to understand and substantiated by a great deal of human history in a form of the brutal but compelling "case law" of the last three millennia.

First of all, the State of Israel was legally created by the United Nations in November 1947. Voted on in the General Assembly, the creation of the Jewish State was strongly supported by both the US and USSR.

On May 14, 1948 David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of the State of Israel effective at midnight with the end of the British Mandate. The UN partition plan of November 1947 demanded Israel adhere to a policy of full democratic and civil rights, equal to citizenship, and protection of religious and social practices of Palestinians remaining in the new state. That is a commitment that Israel has kept to this day.

However, almost immediately an intense guerilla conflict broke out between Arab and Jewish militias as kubutzes were targeted. On May 15th, an Arab coalition consisting of Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded in order to exterminate the new nation. Revisionist historians claim that Israeli defensive measures, which included evacuating Palestinian settlements that refused to disarm, was an act of ethnic cleansing. Traditional historians believe there was no actual plan to displace Palestinians. Rather, the largest portion of the Arab population fled out of fear of the fighting as have refugees in every human conflict. I am confident that both theses have merit.

I inevitably view this debate through the background of a military professional. I would further argue that the decisions that resulted in the flight of 750,000 people, both individual and as communities, were militarily driven.

The word "existential" gets tossed around a lot these days, but the Jews of Israel were indeed fighting an existential conflict against both national military formations and a guerilla movement. Israeli forces were particularly lacking in heavy weapons. In such conditions, protection of key supply routes or critical tactical and operational terrain was an absolute necessity. If a critical logistics supply route passed through hostile villages that threat must be eliminated. Key defensive terrain, regardless of a formal border, must be occupied and held. That is the sort of ruthless military action engendered by existential conflict - a form of warfare anyone who served in WWII, particularly the first few years, would fully understand.

To the astonishment of most of the world, over ten months, Israel prevailed in its War of Independence. The armistice left Israel in control of roughly 78% of areas mandated to "Palestine." The remaining 22% of mandated Palestine was absorbed into neighboring Arab states. The West bank and East Jerusalem had been captured and annexed by Jordan. The Gaza Strip was placed under Egyptian control.

Like Jordan's seizure of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel controlled everything along the ceasefire line by right of conquest. It is a form of expansion of the state as old as humankind. We are all, every single one of us pontificating on this thread, products of such conquests. The borders remained along the ceasefire line for 18 years until the Six-Day War when Israeli force of arms redrew them again - as did Egyptian success in Sinai during the Yom Kippur War.

So, while I have compassion for a people defeated in war - how could a Southerner not. I have none for a people unwilling to recreate themselves in another setting. Billions of dollars of aid, much of it from this country has flowed into Palestinian hands over the last 75 years. A very very few have broken the chains of the refugee to make new lives in the West or the Arab Gulf. Far too many others have seen that fiscal largess handed over to the PLO, or more recently Hamas and its ilk, while they played the role of destitute pawns in Persian geopolitical games.

So, no, I do not condemn Israel or the IDF. They created a state out of little more than a dream, fought three existential wars protecting it, and occupy the ground won by its warriors necessary to protect it in the future. Palestinians have spent three quarters of a century wasting theirs. Of one thing I am certain, no serving member of the IDF cares the slightest about the whining of uneducated flag waving Western youth or the hand wringing of the North American or European intellectual left. Nor should they.

 

[Big_Easy]

Not to pick a fight, but after examining the claims of the so called "Palestinians", I find most of them to be baseless. If we go back just 150-200 years, most of these so called Palestinians came from Jordan (ethnic Heshemites), or Egypt. They never owned land in the area now claimed as a Jewish State.

To start off, the Jews have maintained a continuous presence throughout the area, including North Africa, Arabia, and Persia for nearly 3,500 years. However, this presence does not mean ownership, of land or anything else, for Israelites or Arabs.

When photography became widespread, it shocked most Americans to learn that the "Holy Land" was so sparsely populated. Samuel Clements, known to the World as Mark Twain described much of the countryside as being devoid of human presence.

Abroad, Mark Twain, 1867.​

Excerpt from The Innocents Abroad, Mark Twain, 1867.​

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. … For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee … Nazareth is forlorn … Jericho lies a moldering ruin … Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds … a silent, mournful expanse … a desolation … We never saw a human being on the whole route … Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country … Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery Palestine must be the prince. The hills barren and dull, the valleys unsightly deserts [inhabited by] swarms of beggars with ghastly sores and malformations. Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes … desolate and unlovely …

Hardly the bustling Palestinian population center they would have us believe.

Even worse for the Arab argument is the fact that most were Bedouins who were perpetual wanderers, and therefore owned no land. Many were actually of Jordanian birth, and possessed Jordanian papers.

The Jews on the other hand, purchased the land from it's Ottoman Turk owners, at exorbitant prices. The Jews actually hold title to much of the land. Even the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini was compelled to admit this to the British Peel Commission in 1937. Al Husseini and his family were on lists of individuals who had sold land to Jews, while at the same time organizing strikes and violent riots that killed dozens of Jews as soon as they moved onto the land.
View attachment 778233
This same Haj Amin Al Husseini spent most of WWII under the protection of Adolf Hitler.
View attachment 778240
Al Husseini eventually helped to form a Muslim SS Division within the German Army. Not so much to be used in combat against Russia or the Western Allies, but to round up and ship Jews in southern Europe and Arabia to the Death Camps.
View attachment 778241
In the picture below, Al Husseini tours the Trebbin Concentration Camp just south of Berlin.
View attachment 778245
View attachment 778246
In this photo dated 1943, Al Husseini meets with Heinrich Himmler. There can be absolutely no doubt that the entire leadership of Muslim "Palestine" knew the fate of the Jews they were persecuting, and shipping to the Death Camps.

The entire story of how the Jews stole the land in 1948, and therefore created Palestinian hatred is a fabrication.

Back to the actual question of who owns the land, and where the so called "Palestinians" are actually from.

The Heshemites and Egyptians who came to the area for work after the Jews established farms, did not own land, or count themselves as "Palestinians" as that was a pejorative term for Jews at the time.

You can't steal land from people who never owned it, or were citizens of other countries.

After the War of 1948, Arab leaders expelled Jewish Communities all over the Arab World, often at gunpoint, and into the new nation of israel. Funny how no Arab source bothers to mention the expulsion and widespread Pogroms against Jews in Muslim Countries.
View attachment 778270
Arabs within Israel were forced out, often returning to the lands their parents had come from prior to 1900. The Arabs call this the NAQBA, or disaster. Arab Leaders, including Al Husseini, told Muslim residents of what became Israel to leave, as it would make it easier to kill the Jews if they were all in one place.
View attachment 778257
Hard to claim your land was stolen when your Leadership tells you to leave so your neighbors will be easier to kill. Then when you lose, those same neighbors don't let you back in?

Bottom line?

I don't feel one ounce of pity for the Arab population in that region, nor do I believe they have much of a legal leg to stand on as far as land ownership. They sowed the wind....

I don't disagree that past atrocities are well documented. But linking an Arab child in Gaza today to something Al Husseini did almost 80 years ago is like blaming Angela Merkel or Olaf Scholtz for what Adolf Hitler did back in the 1930s. Or what some of our ancestors may have done to the native populations here in the Americas. The children in Gaza right now did not, in fact, sow anything. You're saying that because someone 5+ generations ago did something bad to the Israeli's, that it's okay for them to exhibit that same bad behavior onto others now?

 

[Big_Easy]

First of all, the State of Israel was legally created by the United Nations in November 1947. Voted on in the General Assembly, the creation of the Jewish State was strongly supported by both the US and USSR.

I'm surprised. I think you're the first person on this forum that I've seen to imply that the UN has the legal authority to do anything. How do you feel about other UN resolutions?

The UN partition plan of November 1947 demanded Israel adhere to a policy of full democratic and civil rights, equal to citizenship, and protection of religious and social practices of Palestinians remaining in the new state. That is a commitment that Israel has kept to this day.

No...they haven't. That's the basis of my posts on this subject. And a good deal of the violence still occurring there. This is a fairy tale that so many tell themselves.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Israel and Palestinians

When humans and politicians can’t resolve formal disputes peacefully. Man has since the dawn of time fought for what they want and need.

So it goes. My mother would get tired of breaking up the constant fights of her sons. Eventually she gave up. Exhausted and frustrated would simply say. Fight it out and whoever wins gets to decide.

Right or wrong. She taught us if you can’t win with your fists you better be proficient in debate and argument. Or you lose both.

No one has ever, or will ever simply lay down for the weaker argument or fists. Unfortunately John Lennon’s world doesn’t exist yet.

Every living thing on earth subscribes to this. Insects, plants, microbes, viruses, humans.

Unfortunately the meek inherit what the strong discard.

"To the victor belong the spoils of the enemy,"