Politics

[Scott CWO]

Only if we pay attention to your limited knowledge.

I lease hundreds of thousands of acres of farm and ranch ground for hunting and both sides of my family are farming and ranching families. I sold my personal corn circles and some pasture last year. Pretty sure my knowledge is not limited.

 

[Scott CWO]

As I posted previously, there was in fact a deal that the Palestinian Authority (essentially the PLO) jointly negotiated at Camp David with the Israelis and the US. Ehud Barak led the Israeli delegation, Bill Clinton the US, and Yasser Arafat the Palestinians. There were major issues of contention, but a deal was finally hammered out that made no one entirely happy, but would have created a Palestinian State with the Arab quarter of Jerusalem as its capital. Israel's capital at the time was Tel Aviv. At the last minute, Arafat walked away from it. Palestinian revisionist history claims it was because it did not address fully issues like right of return. The reality is that the deal was done, but Arafat could not bring himself to be a great man like Anwar Sadat choosing instead to remain "relevant" as the leader of a group of terrorist thugs.

Other than vocal sympathy, one can trace the political abandonment of the Palestinians by most of the remainder of the Arab world to their frustration with those failed negotiations. Iran stepped in to fill the void for its own hegemonic purposes, using both the Palestinians and northern Shia minorities to sow regional conflict. It is why regional Arab sympathy for the Palestinians remains at a historically low point even following the Gaza campaign.

The Palestinian refugee problem is real, but it is also one in which they played a significant role in their own creation. That somehow the Zionists woke up one morning and drove the Palestinians out is the sort of revisionist history that the ignorant demonstrating millennials and boomers embrace because they have no real education on the subject and are subject to the breathless propagandists on X, Tic Toc, and too many college campuses.

The refugees are a direct result of the 1947-49 war which resulted from the end of the British Mandate and planned implementation of the UN Partition Plan of 1947 which would have created a Jewish and an Arab State with Jerusalem maintained under international administration. Regional Arab leadership rejected this plan leading to the first war of attempted Arab extermination of Israel. Initially a viscous guerrilla war conducted by both sides, that changed dramatically when conventional Arab armies invaded in 1948.

That conventional warfare changed the nature of the conflict dramatically as mechanized military formations from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon attempted and ultimately failed to eradicate the fledgling state of Israel. That of course puts a lie to now pandered "facts" embraced by the chattering class, that a then almost non-existent but somehow all powerful Israeli military machine was used to drive the civilian population out of Israel. A drive along Israeli highway Route 1 (a particularly beautiful forested mountain road) would be informative to those who believe this nonsense. There one can see the destroyed locally armored trucks maintained as memorials that the Israelis were forced to use against Jordanian and Egyptian armor (primarily British) as they fought to keep the supply route open from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

So, what happened and why did roughly 700,000 refugees flee what would have been their homes had they and their regional Arab sponsors simply accepted the UN plan? As I mentioned, the guerilla warfare phase was a particularly dirty war which the Israelis were both willing and able to prosecute as effectively as the Palestinians. Villages and Kubutzes occupied by Palestinians and Israelis were regularly attacked. Unfortunately for the Arabs, the Israelis tended to fight tenaciously and most kubutzes, which became small fortresses, survived. In a precursor to the series of wars to come, the Arab settlers did not, opting to run.

As the war became conventional. major portions of the landscape became true battlefields. Villages were used as strongpoints by both sides leading to their destruction. The Jews stayed and fought because they were fighting for the survival of their fledgling country and the survival of their families, while the Palestinians fled to the shelter of the Arab Armies and Arab States attempting to destroy the Israelis. Their expectations were to return over the bodies of the Zionists to seize all of Palestine however much of it may have been legally acquired in the preceding fifty years by Jews.

To the astonishment of most of the world. and none more so than the Palestinians, the Israelis prevailed. In Israel, the period is called the War of Independence. The Arab world refers to it as the "Nakba" which translates as the Catastrophe. Not surprisingly, Israel has had little appetite to repatriate a segment of the former population that was dedicated to Israel's destruction. Having gone through the Crucible of the Holocaust and War of Independence followed by every action since 49 whether by the PLO in Munich or Entebbe, the rocket barrages from Lebanon and Gaza, or the butchery of October 7th, the Arabs have reinforced that conclusion.

Interestingly a segment of the Palestinians did remain. Today they make up nearly 20% of the Israeli population (almost 2 million people). They are full citizens with all political and civil rights enjoying every level of Israeli society, including serving as politicians, judges, and in other government positions. The one exception is the military where, like Christians, they do not face compulsory military service like Jewish citizens. However, many voluntarily serve in the IDF. These too are facts diligently ignored by the revisionists.

Yes, Arafat walked away. Something that @Frostbite and his ilk conveniently don’t mention.

 

[Frostbite]

I lease hundreds of thousands of acres of farm and ranch ground for hunting and both sides of my family are farming and ranching families. I sold my personal corn circles and some pasture last year. Pretty sure my knowledge is not limited.

On the subject of Palestine you have only opinions clearly influenced by Zionist propaganda and you cannot back them with links to reliable sources as I do.

So yes, your knowledge is limited and it seems that is your choice.

You are clearly an intelligent man and I heartily recommend you do more research from unbiased sources like https://imeu.org/resources/palestine-101/what-happened-at-camp-david-in-2000-1/353

 

[Frostbite]

I can also recommend this highly informative and true (and historically important) link.

Explainer: The Oslo Accords

Instead of peace, the Oslo Accords entrenched Israeli control, creating a system of oppression that still dominates Palestinians today. Learn the full story.

imeu.org

 

[Frostbite]

Yes, Arafat walked away. Something that @Frostbite and his ilk conveniently don’t mention.

LOL!

I don't mention it because (as I have proven with reliable sources) there was no "DEAL" to walk away from.

There were many problems due to Zionist demands, but this was the deal breaker.

On the future of refugees expelled from their homes during Israel’s establishment in 1948, the Israelis said the solution to their plight should be found “elsewhere” than Israel.

What Happened at Camp David in 2000?

In 2000, Israeli and Palestinian leaders met at Camp David to negotiate a final peace deal. Talks collapsed as Israel refused clear offers and expanded settlements.

imeu.org

 

[rookhawk]

Very well stated and clearly fact based. When you do the unbiased research you discover that the the reality of the Israel/Palestine history is far from the version often espoused by the far left here in the US and especially on our college campuses. While both sides have committed atrocities over the years the truthful reality is far from "Israelis bad....Palestinians the innocent victims. And unlike the drivel from @Frostbite the above summary from @Red Leg provides a brief but fact based summary of the history of that region.

It's all true analysis, but whenever I'm dealing with the pro-Palestinians I just go direct to hyperbole because they are tone deaf, life is short, and lets just cut to the chase.

For the sake of argument, I'll accept every hateful anti-Semitic trope ever conceived. In turn I'll accept every Palestinian argument of stolen land, they got ripped off, their water gets cut, etc.

Under the most hateful bias against Israel and the most benevolent bias towards the Palestinians, a sane person would still prefer the Israelis. 1.) They don't blow up my country. 2.) They don't practice hostage taking. 3.) They don't believe in suicide bombings. 4.) They have a functional society that is more interested in getting ahead than getting revenge, 5.) They are a liberal democracy that tolerates any religion or no religion at all. Game, set, match.

The problem with the Palestinian advocates is they focus on alleged injustices instead of pragmatism. If Israel is this big bad bully, its still human nature to not tolerate terrorism. Israel and any other country would react violently in response to terrorism and hostage taking of civilians. Add to that, history doesn't take kindly to terrorists so they lose the support of the sane. We already tried giving the West Bank their own self-determination back in 2005 and they proceeded to elect terrorists.

I was right there with the sympathy to the cause of the IRA all the way up to the point they started killing civilians indiscriminately instead of focusing on military targets. That was the moment I started waving a Union Jack and wanted the Brits to crush them. So did virtually every other sane person in the world. < That is where the Palestinians are today versus the rational adults in the room.

 

[Red Leg]

The major problem trolls have is they inevitably have virtually no experience, education, or professional background with respect to any subject about which they are ranting. That of course makes it impossible for them to engage in any sort of informed debate on the subject at hand. As a result they resort to digital shouting (bold fonts or all caps), accusations, and insults. It is a form of quackery rather than dialogue. It is puzzling to me that anyone above the age of twelve would find it desirable to be perceived in such of a light. What rational person wants to be dismissed out of hand as an adolescent nuisance. But then again. aspiration takes all forms.

But back to the issue at hand. Because the troll does not have the informative background to make any sort of intellectually based case, they resort to cut and pasting, a skill set which our particular troll seems to have well practiced ability. AI also now provides them the instant ability to create biased supportive point lists almost instantly. However, that interestingly can present a problem to trolls because they do not have the basic information tool sets to evaluate those cites - an term our particular troll seems to toss around with abandon as if means something.

We have subject matter experts here that our troll has attempted to refute through the use of cites that are written by either biased sources or editorialists with far less informative knowledge than the member the troll is attempting to engage.

For instance, our troll repeatedly turns to the institute of Middle East Understanding, a left leaning think tank that proudly boasts its pro-Palestinian content. One of its primary doners is a fellow by the name of Soros. Rather then further understanding, it serves the role of an English language propaganda mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause. To be certain, Israel employs similar organizations to make its case on the international stage. Neither should be considered particularly factual. IMEU has been called out specifically by the media watchdog group Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting (CAMERA), the NGO Monitor, Media Bias Fact Check, Influence Watch, and as one would suspect, the Anti-Defamation League.

If I too may offer a cite, I suggest all of us take a minute or two to look through the Institute's most current list of articles in order to get a feel for the direction of their content.

| Perspectives | The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU)

imeu.org

That doesn't mean one should not be aware of the musings of editorialists in places like IMEU. I absolutely encourage it. For instance I subscribe on line to Al Jazeera as well as the Jerusalem Post. But, it is essential that a critical reviewer balance Palestinian assertions and versions of history with more balanced ones and even those fully supportive of Israel. Otherwise, the consumer is nothing but a propagandized tool of his information sources.

I personally leven new information with my education and professional experiences. From those, I draw what I believe are informed conclusions that I regularly test against new information or opinion. Most of the informed members of this forum do exactly the same thing. Here, I regularly learn from the successful jurists, teachers, farmers, ranchers, CEOs, businessmen, craftsmen, former military, and other experts in their fields that participate in this forum. As a new member of this community, I can't imagine choosing to assume a persona that is viewed with such absolute disdain by such an accomplished group people. But then neither I nor these people aspire to be simply dismissed through their own arrogance and lack of self-awareness.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Hamas, does not wear a recognized uniform. They target civilians.
Professional militaries occasionally injure and or kill civilians collaterally when the benefits outweigh the potential risk, which is entirely different than initially targeting civilians. One is collateral damage. The other is terrorism

“The first rule on the battlefield is to kill only lawful targets. As readers of Articles of War know, the laws of war prohibit making civilians and civilian structures the object of attack. When attacking military targets, that same law requires commanders to weigh the potential civilian harm (typically referred to as “collateral damage”). The United States’ legal and moral obligation is to minimize civilian harm if possible while at the same time defeating a lethal foe.

The law of armed conflict establishes a proportionality test that prohibits anticipated civilian harm that would be excessive to the expected military advantage of destroying the target. It is a subjective test based on the facts as the commander knows them at the time of the decision. The clearest expression of this customary law is contained in Article 51(5)(b) of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.“

 

[Doug Hamilton]

No.

Red Leg failed to post any links to back up his long and very well stated misinformation.

He claimed that there was a deal made at the Camp David talks and the Palestinians backed out for no good reason.

Not true.

It was all based on Zionist propaganda and none of it was factual there was no deal--never even close and it was for the usual reason--the Zionists refused to allow the Palestinian Refugees to return.

I responded with this:

******************************************************************************
In contrast to the story of the “generous offer” allegedly made by Barak, in reality the Israelis never actually made a formal offer to the Palestinians at Camp David, and submitted no written proposals. The only proposals offered by the Israelis were made orally, mostly through US officials, and lacked detail. The Israelis and Americans pressured Arafat to accept these vague proposals as “bases for negotiations” before moving on to other, more serious negotiations.

One of the proposals was not so vague. It was this total rejection of the right to return.

On the future of refugees expelled from their homes during Israel’s establishment in 1948, the Israelis said the solution to their plight should be found “elsewhere” than Israel.

This was a deal breaker and President Clinton soon made an announcement that the two parties could not come to an agreement.

What Happened at Camp David in 2000?​

In 2000, Israeli and Palestinian leaders met at Camp David to negotiate a final peace deal. Talks collapsed as Israel refused clear offers and expanded settlements.

imeu.org

What Happened at Camp David in 2000?

In 2000, Israeli and Palestinian leaders met at Camp David to negotiate a final peace deal. Talks collapsed as Israel refused clear offers and expanded settlements.

imeu.org

I hope this helps you understand what really happened and encourages you to seek out reliable sources.

Incidentally, the rest of your long post is equally lacking in reality. It's ALL Zionist revisionist history and quite laughable and without ANY merit or validation by citations from ANY source.

******************************************************************************

So, no...........I disagree (and the facts disagree) with Red Leg's post.

I hope you will research actual history before making a decision on what is true and not true.

Well let's see. Red Leg was in the Middle East and involved. You have IMEU. But Red Leg is falling for "Zionist revisionist history."

Someone is falling for revisionist propaganda but it isn't Red Leg.

Are you really that naive, or do you just enjoy offending people? Or maybe you are just a Jew hater. That would put you in bed with the German National Socialist Party (Nazi) of 1939.

I find it interesting that all of the people supporting Hamas calls those that support Israel Nazis or fascists. Looking at it from the outside, I'd say they got it backwards.

 

[Tanks]

The Toyota Hilux, which I guess is Asia's market version of the Tacoma, comes with an optional diesel engine, which I don't think we can get here?

I love mine with a turbo 2.8L diesel engine. After riding in one in a Safari I had to get one overseas to drive around. I'll have it forever as I bought it new in 2022 and have about 10K miles on it.

Here is a pic from when I picked it up a few years ago.

 

[Frostbite]

It's all true analysis, but whenever I'm dealing with the pro-Palestinians I just go direct to hyperbole because they are tone deaf, life is short, and lets just cut to the chase.

For the sake of argument, I'll accept every hateful anti-Semitic trope ever conceived. In turn I'll accept every Palestinian argument of stolen land, they got ripped off, their water gets cut, etc.

Under the most hateful bias against Israel and the most benevolent bias towards the Palestinians, a sane person would still prefer the Israelis. 1.) They don't blow up my country. 2.) They don't practice hostage taking. 3.) They don't believe in suicide bombings. 4.) They have a functional society that is more interested in getting ahead than getting revenge, 5.) They are a liberal democracy that tolerates any religion or no religion at all. Game, set, match.

The problem with the Palestinian advocates is they focus on alleged injustices instead of pragmatism. If Israel is this big bad bully, its still human nature to not tolerate terrorism. Israel and any other country would react violently in response to terrorism and hostage taking of civilians. Add to that, history doesn't takeA kindly to terrorists so they lose the support of the sane. We already tried giving the West Bank their own self-determination back in 2005 and they proceeded to elect terrorists.

I was right there with the sympathy to the cause of the IRA all the way up to the point they started killing civilians indiscriminately instead of focusing on military targets. That was the moment I started waving a Union Jack and wanted the Brits to crush them. So did virtually every other sane person in the world. < That is where the Palestinians are today versus the rational adults in the room.

All very interesting and somewhat logical and understandable thinking--but only if you disregard some facts.

For example: You say........

1.) They don't blow up my country.
Response: Why did they start blowing things up? Was anything blown up before the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists from Europe?

2.) They don't practice hostage taking.
Response: As top dog they have no need........but they DO keep 1500 to 2000 Palestinian kids in prison at all times for throwing rocks.

3.) They don't believe in suicide bombings.
Response: Since they have far superior weapons they don't need them.

4.) They have a functional society that is more interested in getting ahead than getting revenge.
Response: By "getting ahead" do you mean stealing more land? (Because they have stolen more land every year since they invaded over 75 years ago and are still stealing land right now.)

5.) They are a liberal democracy that tolerates any religion or no religion at all. Game, set, match.
You lose game, set and match.
Not Liberal--Not Democracy.
Although Palestinian citizens of Israel are entitled to vote and participate in Israeli political life, and several Palestinians are members of the Knesset (the Israeli parliament), they do not receive the same treatment as Jewish citizens at the hands of the government.

From the birth of the state in 1948 until 1966, predominantly Palestinian areas were ruled through a military government that enforced draconian restrictions affecting all realms of life.

Israel still applies more than 50 laws that privilege Jews over Arabs. For example, the 1950 Law of Return grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians.

The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom ensures that Israel is the state of the “Jewish people,” not its citizens. This law was passed in 1992 to serve as a “bill of rights,” as Israel does not have a written constitution. Israel’s flag and other national symbols are Jewish religious symbols, not neutral or national ones that represent all the citizens of the state.

Government resources, meanwhile, are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all economic indicators. Human Rights Watch has compiled an extensive study of Israel’s policy of “separate, not equal” schools for Palestinian children, finding that “Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this.”

As many as 45 Palestinian villages in Israel, many of which pre-date the founding of the state, are not recognized by the Israeli government, and are not listed on maps and receive no services (water, electricity, sanitation, roads, etc.) from the government. More than 75,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized villages. Meanwhile, hundreds of new Jewish communities have been established on lands confiscated from Palestinians.

Are Palestinian and Jewish Citizens of Israel Treated Equally?

Palestinian citizens of Israel face systemic discrimination despite formal citizenship. Learn how inequality is upheld in law and practice.

imeu.org

 

[Frostbite]

Well let's see. Red Leg was in the Middle East and involved. You have IMEU. But Red Leg is falling for "Zionist revisionist history."

Someone is falling for revisionist propaganda but it isn't Red Leg.

Are you really that naive, or do you just enjoy offending people? Or maybe you are just a Jew hater. That would put you in bed with the German National Socialist Party (Nazi) of 1939.

I find it interesting that all of the people supporting Hamas calls those that support Israel Nazis or fascists. Looking at it from the outside, I'd say they got it backwards.

Well, let's see, Red Leg was in the Middle East and seems unable to give us any facts.

You complain about the Institute for Middle East Understanding but you can't refute any of their information........because their information is fact.

And hinting that I'm a supporter of terrorists is just childish.

But you can't back up your insults with facts--as usual.

 

[Frostbite]

Hamas, does not wear a recognized uniform. They target civilians.
Professional militaries occasionally injure and or kill civilians collaterally when the benefits outweigh the potential risk, which is entirely different than initially targeting civilians. One is collateral damage. The other is terrorism

“The first rule on the battlefield is to kill only lawful targets. As readers of Articles of War know, the laws of war prohibit making civilians and civilian structures the object of attack. When attacking military targets, that same law requires commanders to weigh the potential civilian harm (typically referred to as “collateral damage”). The United States’ legal and moral obligation is to minimize civilian harm if possible while at the same time defeating a lethal foe.

The law of armed conflict establishes a proportionality test that prohibits anticipated civilian harm that would be excessive to the expected military advantage of destroying the target. It is a subjective test based on the facts as the commander knows them at the time of the decision. The clearest expression of this customary law is contained in Article 51(5)(b) of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.“

So terrorists don't play by the rules?

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Terrorists are bad. We all agree.

So why bother to mention it?

But thanks for caring.

 

[Frostbite]

The major problem trolls have is they inevitably have virtually no experience, education, or professional background with respect to any subject about which they are ranting. That of course makes it impossible for them to engage in any sort of informed debate on the subject at hand. As a result they resort to digital shouting (bold fonts or all caps), accusations, and insults. It is a form of quackery rather than dialogue. It is puzzling to me that anyone above the age of twelve would find it desirable to be perceived in such of a light. What rational person wants to be dismissed out of hand as an adolescent nuisance. But then again. aspiration takes all forms.

But back to the issue at hand. Because the troll does not have the informative background to make any sort of intellectually based case, they resort to cut and pasting, a skill set which our particular troll seems to have well practiced ability. AI also now provides them the instant ability to create biased supportive point lists almost instantly. However, that interestingly can present a problem to trolls because they do not have the basic information tool sets to evaluate those cites - an term our particular troll seems to toss around with abandon as if means something.

We have subject matter experts here that our troll has attempted to refute through the use of cites that are written by either biased sources or editorialists with far less informative knowledge than the member the troll is attempting to engage.

For instance, our troll repeatedly turns to the institute of Middle East Understanding, a left leaning think tank that proudly boasts its pro-Palestinian content. One of its primary doners is a fellow by the name of Soros. Rather then further understanding, it serves the role of an English language propaganda mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause. To be certain, Israel employs similar organizations to make its case on the international stage. Neither should be considered particularly factual. IMEU has been called out specifically by the media watchdog group Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting (CAMERA), the NGO Monitor, Media Bias Fact Check, Influence Watch, and as one would suspect, the Anti-Defamation League.

If I too may offer a cite, I suggest all of us take a minute or two to look through the Institute's most current list of articles in order to get a feel for the direction of their content.

| Perspectives | The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU)

imeu.org

That doesn't mean one should not be aware of the musings of editorialists in places like IMEU. I absolutely encourage it. For instance I subscribe on line to Al Jazeera as well as the Jerusalem Post. But, it is essential that a critical reviewer balance Palestinian assertions and versions of history with more balanced ones and even those fully supportive of Israel. Otherwise, the consumer is nothing but a propagandized tool of his information sources.

I personally leven new information with my education and professional experiences. From those, I draw what I believe are informed conclusions that I regularly test against new information or opinion. Most of the informed members of this forum do exactly the same thing. Here, I regularly learn from the successful jurists, teachers, farmers, ranchers, CEOs, businessmen, craftsmen, former military, and other experts in their fields that participate in this forum. As a new member of this community, I can't imagine choosing to assume a persona that is viewed with such absolute disdain by such an accomplished group people. But then neither I nor these people aspire to be simply dismissed through their own arrogance and lack of self-awareness.

I read all that..........even looked at your link--all it had was more factual info that supports me.

So.........you have managed only to call me names, make specious claims of your great knowledge and fail to refute anything I've said and........... waste more time and space.

And you wonder why you get no respect?

Thanks for all the irrelevant hot air but you really needn't bother.

 

[Wheels]

As I posted previously, there was in fact a deal that the Palestinian Authority (essentially the PLO) jointly negotiated at Camp David with the Israelis and the US. Ehud Barak led the Israeli delegation, Bill Clinton the US, and Yasser Arafat the Palestinians. There were major issues of contention, but a deal was finally hammered out that made no one entirely happy, but would have created a Palestinian State with the Arab quarter of Jerusalem as its capital. Israel's capital at the time was Tel Aviv. At the last minute, Arafat walked away from it. Palestinian revisionist history claims it was because it did not address fully issues like right of return. The reality is that the deal was done, but Arafat could not bring himself to be a great man like Anwar Sadat choosing instead to remain "relevant" as the leader of a group of terrorist thugs.

Other than vocal sympathy, one can trace the political abandonment of the Palestinians by most of the remainder of the Arab world to their frustration with those failed negotiations. Iran stepped in to fill the void for its own hegemonic purposes, using both the Palestinians and northern Shia minorities to sow regional conflict. It is why regional Arab sympathy for the Palestinians remains at a historically low point even following the Gaza campaign.

The Palestinian refugee problem is real, but it is also one in which they played a significant role in their own creation. That somehow the Zionists woke up one morning and drove the Palestinians out is the sort of revisionist history that the ignorant demonstrating millennials and boomers embrace because they have no real education on the subject and are subject to the breathless propagandists on X, Tic Toc, and too many college campuses.

The refugees are a direct result of the 1947-49 war which resulted from the end of the British Mandate and planned implementation of the UN Partition Plan of 1947 which would have created a Jewish and an Arab State with Jerusalem maintained under international administration. Regional Arab leadership rejected this plan leading to the first war of attempted Arab extermination of Israel. Initially a viscous guerrilla war conducted by both sides, that changed dramatically when conventional Arab armies invaded in 1948.

That conventional warfare changed the nature of the conflict dramatically as mechanized military formations from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon attempted and ultimately failed to eradicate the fledgling state of Israel. That of course puts a lie to now pandered "facts" embraced by the chattering class, that a then almost non-existent but somehow all powerful Israeli military machine was used to drive the civilian population out of Israel. A drive along Israeli highway Route 1 (a particularly beautiful forested mountain road) would be informative to those who believe this nonsense. There one can see the destroyed locally armored trucks maintained as memorials that the Israelis were forced to use against Jordanian and Egyptian armor (primarily British) as they fought to keep the supply route open from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

So, what happened and why did roughly 700,000 refugees flee what would have been their homes had they and their regional Arab sponsors simply accepted the UN plan? As I mentioned, the guerilla warfare phase was a particularly dirty war which the Israelis were both willing and able to prosecute as effectively as the Palestinians. Villages and Kubutzes occupied by Palestinians and Israelis were regularly attacked. Unfortunately for the Arabs, the Israelis tended to fight tenaciously and most kubutzes, which became small fortresses, survived. In a precursor to the series of wars to come, the Arab settlers did not, opting to run.

As the war became conventional. major portions of the landscape became true battlefields. Villages were used as strongpoints by both sides leading to their destruction. The Jews stayed and fought because they were fighting for the survival of their fledgling country and the survival of their families, while the Palestinians fled to the shelter of the Arab Armies and Arab States attempting to destroy the Israelis. Their expectations were to return over the bodies of the Zionists to seize all of Palestine however much of it may have been legally acquired in the preceding fifty years by Jews.

To the astonishment of most of the world. and none more so than the Palestinians, the Israelis prevailed. In Israel, the period is called the War of Independence. The Arab world refers to it as the "Nakba" which translates as the Catastrophe. Not surprisingly, Israel has had little appetite to repatriate a segment of the former population that was dedicated to Israel's destruction. Having gone through the Crucible of the Holocaust and War of Independence followed by every action since 49 whether by the PLO in Munich or Entebbe, the rocket barrages from Lebanon and Gaza, or the butchery of October 7th, the Arabs have reinforced that conclusion.

Interestingly a segment of the Palestinians did remain. Today they make up nearly 20% of the Israeli population (almost 2 million people). They are full citizens with all political and civil rights enjoying every level of Israeli society, including serving as politicians, judges, and in other government positions. The one exception is the military where, like Christians, they do not face compulsory military service like Jewish citizens. However, many voluntarily serve in the IDF. These too are facts diligently ignored by the revisionists.

I was in a Bedouin village in the Negev three years ago. It was interesting how they despise the Palestinians. Some of the men from the village serve in the IDF.

 

[Brent in Az]

I love mine with a turbo 2.8L diesel engine. After riding in one in a Safari I had to get one overseas to drive around. I'll have it forever as I bought it new in 2022 and have about 10K miles on it.

Here is a pic from when I picked it up a few years ago.

View attachment 723620

Special import required?

 

[Red Leg]

I was in a Bedouin village in the Negev three years ago. It was interesting how they despise the Palestinians. Some of the men from the village serve in the IDF.

Talk to any native Arabs of the Gulf and they will hold the same opinion. The Hashemites of Jordan despise them and they form the country's greatest security risk. Qatar uses a lot of them in their middle level bureaucracy, but it is purely a transactional relationship. The Houthis seem somewhat enamored though that support was more responding to the desires of their Iranian benefactors than any significant relationship with them. Even Palestinians don't want to live in Sanaa. Most telling is the general Arab apathy to the Palestinian's plight even after Israel's counteroffensive into Gaza. The failure of the Camp David accords and the Palestinian embrace of Hamas and Iran were the final straw. Were they to vanish from the Earth tomorrow morning, most of the Arab world would breathe a sigh of relief.

Interesting that you bring up the Bedouins. During my last official visit to Israel in probably 2003, I asked if I could have some interaction with Israeli Arabs (a reporting ask). I had lunch with a Muslim senior VP at Elbit Systems with no minders present, and was then taken to a Bedouin encampment in the afternoon. I found it interesting that their dialect was virtually identical to that spoken by the Arab Peninsula Bedouin. We had a great couple of hours and enough coffee to cause some discomfort. Their comments on their Palestinian neighbors exactly matched what you heard.

The Israelis have been very careful not to try and turn their Arab citizens into Jews. Like the Bedouin you met who practice an ancient lifestyle (abetted by Toyota king cabs) in one of the most modern nations on the planet. It tends to skew statistics - particularly economic and educational ones. But for those who wish, the door is open for cultural if not religious assimilation. The Elbit VP was extremely well compensated and presided over an important part of one of Israel's major defense corporations. Somehow, the propagandists at places like IMEU and Al Jazeera fail to mention those people.

 

[Tanks]

Special import required?

No. I bought it overseas to use overseas.

 

[Mountainshadows]

@Red Leg I commend you for continuing to try to educate the troll (other forums I'm on they would have banned him already as he has no interest in a dialogue). Obviously you are educated and experienced in the Middle East. I myself have spent numerous time throughout the region to include Israel and on the West Bank side too. I hit the ignore function quite some time ago for this troll as he obviously is an ideological mental midget and certainly not worth my effort to give him other sides that he certainly is not aware of.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Frosty,

“And you wonder why you get no respect?”

You obviously don’t know who you are addressing in RedLeg. He has all of our respect.