Politics

Oh boy... one of those guys.

So your say so is gospel on all enlisted navy and usmc almost 30 years back over my passing on what others told me in person in 5 years , multiple ships, 2 squadrons, 2 deployments, and multiple inter-branch schools.


Right.
Over what other people told you (in person no less) vice actual recruiting policy - yes I guess I am one of “those guys.”

I retired after 29 years of service beginning in 1974 as a Major General, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I admit other recruitment rules may have applied for the Civil Air Patrol, but not for the primary services.

What you are claiming is false.
 
@ Red Leg wouldn't you have gotten significantly higher retirement had you stayed one more year? As I recall the retirement was 0-19 years= $0; 20 to 29 years 1/2 last salary; 30+ 2/3rd last salary. But I did hear something well after I was out that the system had changed.
 
Over what other people told you (in person no less) vice actual recruiting policy - yes I guess I am one of “those guys.”

I retired after 29 years of service beginning in 1974 as a Major General, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I admit other recruitment rules may have applied for the Civil Air Patrol, but not for the primary services.

What you are claiming is false.

Oh you're one of those guys. Don't try to twist out of it now as if i'm referencing some policy. There's a few on every forum unfortunately. Tough on a keyboard. in person, not so much.

I wasn't claiming anything. Read it again internet tuff guy.
I was passing along the story I was told. I'm sorry i wasn't in the habit of vetting sources from a drunks and malcontents when haze gray and underway or shore patrol.

Now i tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to the peoples' stories I referenced in calling them a liar but it sure comes off that you're calling me one.

Where I come from we expected more outta the brass. But they didn't wave it in your face either so...
 
Back on the draft thing - I liked the starship troopers concept. Citizenship should be EARNED!!! one of those ways is through military service.

I’ve always found that an interesting concept. An obligation to be somehow personally invested through voluntary civil or military service for your society now, as a requirement to make decisions for your future society.

It does come back a bit to the idea of having to be for example a landowner in order to be able to vote, as was the case a few hundred years ago.

Would anyone be willing to educate me why for example a 1yr stint of civil or military service just before university in order to obtain the right to for example hold a public office would not be a good idea?
 
Read it again internet tuff guy.
Where I come from .

An obligation to be somehow personally invested through voluntary civil or military service
Would anyone be willing to educate me
@Datchew- Being around here for more than 6 months we'd expect a little more decorum
@VertigoBE It's a great idea. When I was in the military in the late 60s I knew several Canadian citizens who had joined the US military and the primary purpose was to eligible to remain in the US after enlistment and process toward citizenship. I haven't seen any of them in over 50 years but if they survived I'm sure they are productive patriotic US citizens.
 
@Datchew- Being around here for more than 6 months we'd expect a little more decorum

A good point. I have also different idea of the culture discussion.
And with this remark I certainly do not mean Red Leg.
Foxi
 
@ Red Leg wouldn't you have gotten significantly higher retirement had you stayed one more year? As I recall the retirement was 0-19 years= $0; 20 to 29 years 1/2 last salary; 30+ 2/3rd last salary. But I did hear something well after I was out that the system had changed.
It is interesting story best told over a beer.
 
Oh you're one of those guys. Don't try to twist out of it now as if i'm referencing some policy. There's a few on every forum unfortunately. Tough on a keyboard. in person, not so much.

I wasn't claiming anything. Read it again internet tuff guy.
I was passing along the story I was told. I'm sorry i wasn't in the habit of vetting sources from a drunks and malcontents when haze gray and underway or shore patrol.

Now i tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to the peoples' stories I referenced in calling them a liar but it sure comes off that you're calling me one.

Where I come from we expected more outta the brass. But they didn't wave it in your face either so...
You brought up your credentials first.

" told me in person in 5 years , multiple ships, 2 squadrons, 2 deployments, and multiple inter-branch schools."

I provided you mine, and apparently that constitutes "waving it in your face."

When the draft ended in 1973, one of the things the services wanted to put an end to were service other than jail deals with state and local judicial systems. They were actually pretty rare, but they received press attention and represented the antithesis of a professional force. As part of establishing enlistment criteria for the new all volunteer service, regulations were amended to make such judicial enlistments impossible. A recruiter who attempted to do so would face disciplinary action. It would also be discovered as soon as a local background check or security clearance investigation was initiated.

So, if anyone in the nineties told you a judge offered him the option of jail or enlisting then that was simply not true.
 
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You brought up your credentials first.

" told me in person in 5 years , multiple ships, 2 squadrons, 2 deployments, and multiple inter-branch schools."

I provided you mine, and apparently that constitutes "waving it in your face."

When the draft ended in 1973, one of the things the services wanted to put an end to were service other than jail deals with state and local judicial systems. They were actually pretty rare, but they received press attention and represented the antithesis of a professional force. As part of establishing enlistment criteria for the new all volunteer service, regulations were amended to make such judicial enlistments impossible. A recruiter who attempted to do so would face disciplinary action. It would also be discovered as soon as a local background check or security clearance investigation was initiated.

So, if anyone in the nineties told you a judge offered him the option of jail or enlisting then that was simply not true.

Could it be a timing issue? Someone recruited pre 73 still in the service in the early 90’s?
 
Not sure if you're saying their story was a lie or me stating that's what I heard was a lie.

Maybe try reading again tuff guy and clarify.
I know it's hard.
10-20% is 1 outta 10 up to 2 outta 10.
1995-97 was a date range.
Navy was clearly stated.
Posting under the influence?
In my limited experience, Tactical Navy Truck Drivers are indeed very disrespectful...
 
Could it be a timing issue? Someone recruited pre 73 still in the service in the early 90’s?

I’d say possible.. but highly improbable for 2 reasons…

95-97 was the peak of the Clinton Reduction In Force (RIF), which started in 93… one of the largest, fastest (and much to my chagrin since I’m not a Clinton fan), and most successful force reductions in US military history… the armed services budget was cut by 15% over a short period of time and most malcontents and/or anyone that was less than a stellar soldier for any reason was at a significant risk for getting pushed out.. whether it was inappropriate behavior, inappropriate tattoos, a dwi, or just not a great performer… the 90’s were a period that the military stayed in pretty positive behavior.. or… you found yourself not in the military… even if what you “did” was 10 years prior…

And…anyone that enlisted in 1972 that was still serving in 1995 is going to be a VERY senior NCO… if they weren’t, see point 1 above… they would be gone… and a very senior NCO isn’t going to be hanging out and telling I almost went to jail stories to young enlisted guys… while 1 might be a dumbass and cross those lines of professionalism.. 2 or more aren’t going to do it.. especially not in the mid 90’s…

If someone told datchew in the mid 90’s that a judge gave him a choice… to red legs point… the guy was straight up lying (the military was trying to get rid of people.. not bring in potential problem children).. and that person was very likely a young fairly new enlistee that was just talking shit…

The issue as I see it is… anyone that was serving in the 90s would also know all of this and likely not fall for the bullshit lie of some E1-E4 telling it…
 
Not fact checked this or figures or anything....so don't give me shit....but to me its pretty true in what's written...and how people in general unfortunately roll over ....

Brilliant read

Antoinette Dick

A German's View on Islam - worth reading.
This is one of the best explanations of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.'
'My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'
'We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is a religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.'
'The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.'
'The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China 's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.'
'The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
'History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.'
'Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.' What do statistics tell us: not later than 2051 French will have more Muslims than Christians, The Netherlands to follow just a couple of years later, Belgium probably by the year 2060, and Germany already has over 8 million Muslims which is to say, 10% of its population and every week new ones coming from war-torn countries.
Mosques are mushrooming all over the E. U. receiving construction permits on a daily basis. Go and ask for a church construction permit not even as far as Saudi- Arabia, just start asking in Turkey and you'll feel a hard kick in your butt.
'Now Islamic prayers have been introduced in Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa , too, while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?). The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country - until the fanatics move in.'
'In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation's shores. Why - because they dare in the name of God.
'In the U. K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of "no-go" zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.'
'As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life, and they do so in the name of God.
Let us hope that thousands world-wide read this, think about it, and send it on before it's too late, and we are silenced because we were silent!!!
Extend yourself and spread the truth.
 
You brought up your credentials first.

" told me in person in 5 years , multiple ships, 2 squadrons, 2 deployments, and multiple inter-branch schools."

I provided you mine, and apparently that constitutes "waving it in your face."

When the draft ended in 1973, one of the things the services wanted to put an end to were service other than jail deals with state and local judicial systems. They were actually pretty rare, but they received press attention and represented the antithesis of a professional force. As part of establishing enlistment criteria for the new all volunteer service, regulations were amended to make such judicial enlistments impossible. A recruiter who attempted to do so would face disciplinary action. It would also be discovered as soon as a local background check or security clearance investigation was initiated.

So, if anyone in the nineties told you a judge offered him the option of jail or enlisting then that was simply not true.
A master class in restraint.
 
Who knows the precise time line or credibility of third party stories. No way would I claim anyone a liar based on this premise. Jeez, sometimes best to raise questions then let it go!

Actually I can see it playing out the way @Datchew describes- no matter the time frame. It has been the subplot IIRC in several TV shows and movies that I've seen. Maybe the info relayed by @Datchew was coming directly from habitual and slick BSers who had also watched those on TV or movie. But, the underlying details could also go something like: Young troublemaker goes to court for whatever. Judge, maybe at magistrate level, tells young habitual criminal-to-be, "why don't you go see the (fill in branch) recruiter" without actually sentencing or issuing official written recorded sentencing mandate directing him to do so... leaving the defendant to think that it he has a choice... court imposed penalty or signing up. The judge dismisses charges and penalties with no further explanation to defendant. The defendant enlists and that is that. I dunno, just a thought
 
I assume that Biden's trip to Israel includes a deliverable from the Netanyahu. Will be interesting to see what it is. The ground offensive has clearly been put on hold, and Hamas just released a video of terrified and pretty young Israeli hostage.

Mot sure that Netanyahu can back off "destruction of Hamas" and survive politically, but at this point, the deaths of 200 hostages would likely be as bad.

Additionally, the CENTCOM Combatant Commander, Michael Kurilla (a very able man), is headed to Israel for discussions. Should be a fascinating 72 hours.
I wonder if Biden will bring some of the American expats home on AirForce One?
 
Who knows the precise time line or credibility of third party stories. No way would I claim anyone a liar based on this premise. Jeez, sometimes best to raise questions then let it go!

Actually I can see it playing out the way @Datchew describes- no matter the time frame. It has been the subplot IIRC in several TV shows and movies that I've seen. Maybe the info relayed by @Datchew was coming directly from habitual and slick BSers who had also watched those on TV or movie. But, the underlying details could also go something like: Young troublemaker goes to court for whatever. Judge, maybe at magistrate level, tells young habitual criminal-to-be, "why don't you go see the (fill in branch) recruiter" without actually sentencing or issuing official written recorded sentencing mandate directing him to do so... leaving the defendant to think that it he has a choice... court imposed penalty or signing up. The judge dismisses charges and penalties with no further explanation to defendant. The defendant enlists and that is that. I dunno, just a thought

What you are describing was an uncommon, but well known occurrence (which is why everyone serving also heard the same BS… much like every guy that never went to Ranger School likes to tell the false story of one of their classmates being killed by an alligator during “Florida Phase” of their class…. The military is unfortunately full of shit talkers and story tellers that attempt to make themselves appear to be something they are not… or have experienced something they have not…)..,in the 60’s and 70’s… but, with a twist…

It was rarely a judge taking action..

Every incidence I am aware of points to a recruiter hanging around in the court.. petitioning a young guy that’s facing the consequence of stupid behavior… telling the young guy he’d be willing to talk to the judge and convince him that the Army/USMC/Navy will straighten the young dumbass out… all he needs to do is enlist.. and the military will go to bat for him…

So… the judge isn’t demanding enlistment (by the 90’s the judge couldn’t guarantee the military would even take you.. remember..a RIF was going on..if you didn’t have decent grades, a decent ASVAB score, weren’t reasonably fit, and the military didn’t have a specific need that you qualified for… you weren’t getting in).. the kid, talking to a recruiter is volunteering to enlist.. and the recruiter is then going to bat for him…

As red leg has stated though.. this sort of behavior,as infrequent as it was,ended by the early 70’s… the military cracked down on it..and.. much like the 90’s… a RIF started as Vietnam winded down… the military needed less people and became more selective about who was allowed in…
 
Oh you're one of those guys. Don't try to twist out of it now as if i'm referencing some policy. There's a few on every forum unfortunately. Tough on a keyboard. in person, not so much.

I wasn't claiming anything. Read it again internet tuff guy.
I was passing along the story I was told. I'm sorry i wasn't in the habit of vetting sources from a drunks and malcontents when haze gray and underway or shore patrol.

Now i tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to the peoples' stories I referenced in calling them a liar but it sure comes off that you're calling me one.

Where I come from we expected more outta the brass. But they didn't wave it in your face either so...
Pardon my temerity, but how about a little respect? AH has standards of conduct we should all try to maintain.
 
IMG_2079.jpeg
 
Okay people, now hear this! When I retired from the Marine Corps in 1998, the overall quality of the recently enlisted Marines was far superior in intellect and integrity than those in my boot camp platoon in 1977. Drill Instructor (never drill sergeant in the Marines!) Sergeant Mills was amazed that 75% of my boot camp platoon had high school diplomas! When I retired, all Marines had a diploma or GED.

As a young enlisted Marine, I and many of my peers tried to be the biggest, toughest swinging dick that ever strutted down a squad bay. We may have embellished the stories of our adolescent endeavors with tales of police and judicial interaction. Most of it was in fact, bullshit. Now, some of us had been into a little bit of trouble and maybe got a pass because we were soon to leave for boot camp. Those passes came from the WWII and Korean War servicemen. At least mine did but I did not commit anything serious. But then who among us never played stupid games as teenagers?

In the 60’s there were a good number of Marines serving who joined the Corps rather than being drafted into the Army. I remember a couple of them telling me then of how the Corps as better off in the late 70's and early 80's then than in the 60’s. During Vietnam, some judges may have sent minor troublemakers to recruiters. Chances are that serious criminals didn’t get a pass! Why one may wonder? Perhaps those judges were WWII vets who would not spoil the service with human trash. That's what prison is for.

From the rank of Private to Gunnery Sergeant, as a Chief Warrant Officer, and finally as a Captain, I never encountered any Marine, sailor, or soldier who told me a believable story of having committed a felony and a judge offering them military service or jail. I state this as my reference that I have experience in the enlisted, Staff NCO (SNCO), and company grade officer ranks.

As the OIC of Marine Corps Basic Electronics Course during 95-97, I observed the quality and dedication of a couple thousand young Marines. Sure, some of them got into a little trouble but most often my NCOs and SNCOs sorted it out without involving me. The young enlisted, “non-rated” (pay grades E-1 to E-3) Marines of the 1990’s did not have or cause problems like I witnessed in the late 70’s. Almost all of the drug use was cleaned up. There wasn’t much remaining of the racial problems either. There were also a lot less instances of Marines getting arrested off base for bar fights and so on.

Those young Marines of the 90’s were overall better educated and, in some ways, smarter than my generation. My generation was probably the same in regards to those who came before me. Every generation is different than the last. Different is not however bad, it is only different and hopefully better than before…
 
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