Politics

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Longwalker, Jul 27, 2018.

  1. Wheels

    Wheels AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    You should be in the Al Jazeera studio's explaining macroeconomics.;)

    Have a great hunt and forget politics. Say hi to J for me!
     
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  2. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Good Luck Phil!
     
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  3. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Awhile back I remember Trump saying remove all tariffs. He hasn't had one country take him up on it. They know with our brainpower, manpower and technology, we would eat them alive on the world market and their PROTECTED industries would collapse. Our trading partners talk the talk but won't walk the walk. Like my ol' man used to say, "Talk is cheap".
     
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  4. WAB

    WAB AH Elite

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    Spot on. I’m in favor of free trade but that means no tariffs or subsidies in either direction. We’ve been getting screwed by our trading partners long enough.
     
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  5. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    Foreign countries imposing import tariffs on US goods hurts THEIR citizens. Trying to get our government to do the same is like complaining that the school yard bully is only picking on the other kids, not on you.

    Free trade, even unilateral free trade, creates wealth wherever it is tried. After WWII, both Hong Kong and Singapore were economic backwaters devastated by war. After 6 or 7 decades of *unilateral* free trade, look at them. I expect I have more natural resources in my back yard than both of those places combined. Uninhibited free trade benefits all; barriers to trade harm all, but most especially those who have to ultimately pay higher prices, and frequently for inferior products. Lastly, tariffs are a form of protectionism. It permits domestic businesses to raise the price on their goods without having to go to the trouble of actually making their products more valuable and worth the higher price tag. If the competitive price for my widget is $100, and a tariff is imposed on their widgets which would drive their sell price to $150, I can raise my price to $145 and still beat them. This situation benefits most those businessmen who are politically connected, to the detriment of all the rest of us.

    But all of this talk of tariffs looks right past one of the real causes of economic hardship domestically, and that is the tax and regulatory morass which is imposed by all levels of government anymore, but particularly the federal government. What do you suppose would happen to our economy if the corporate income tax were eliminated? Every business in the world would domicile itself in the US. What impact would that have on the GDP? What impact would that have on job growth? On salaries?

    Without any exception, every *voluntary* commercial transaction produces a win-win. When government injects itself into the equation in any fashion at all, it increases the cost of the transaction

    Read about The Chicken Tax and then decide if you still think a "trade war" is a good idea.
     
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  6. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    Milton Friedman on Free Trade

     

  7. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Heritage Foundation, a right wing think tank, on NAFTA, written in 1993!!!!

    The North American free trade area that the agreement creates will produce 25 percent more goods and services than the European Community, giving North America enough economic muscle to challenge the emerging unified market in Europe and an East Asia market dominated by Japan. The NAFTA also will offer Americans cheaper goods, and increase U.S. exports by making them more affordable for the rest of the world. Moreover, it will create an estimated 200,000 new jobs for Americans, reduce illegal immigration from Mexico, help tackle drug trafficking, strengthen Mexican democracy and human rights, and serve as a model for the rest of the world.

    Gotta love the eggheads that actually believed this tripe. HP
     
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  8. Ray B

    Ray B AH Elite

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    I do tire of people poking arguments at Prof. Friedman, or anyone for that matter, who is no longer present to respond.
    The concept of trade and government interference is fairly simple. The adjustments to that interference are affected by start-up and maintenance costs.
    Monetarily the government can support a local industry with a subsidy. This means the citizens of a country pay some of the production costs of a local industry so that the industry can sell its products for less than the actual cost, thereby competing with "cheap foreign imports". So the citizens pay increased taxes, so while they can buy the local product for the same price as the import, they are actually paying the higher price through pre-payment of taxes. The other aspect is for the local producer to export the product. so then the foreigners can pay less for the imported product than their local product, because a portion of the price is being paid by the taxpayers of the exporters country.

    Tariffs are the opposite of subsidies- The government charges it's citizens a tax on the imported item, to increase the price to make a local product competitive.

    So when governments get involved it can really help their bottom lines. Say Country X starts building automobiles and they want to sell them in the United States. there are a lot of costs involved in doing this, so the Country X government tells the citizens that it will really be a good deal in the long run to export cars to the US, so we should help the industry by giving them a subsidy. This would result in X cars being competitive with US cars. the US government sees this and so they tell their citizens that what the X government is doing is bad and to correct the inequity, the US government puts a tariff on the imported cars.

    So we are back where we started. the X car costs what it cost to build and market it, but the Xs paid taxes for each car sold and the US citizens each paid the tariff amount. So while the car companies had an even balance sheet, bot governments got rich- exploiting the taxpayers and the consumers.
     
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  9. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    Exactly this.

    Henry Hazlitt also pounded home this point in "Economics in One Lesson," with the seen vs the unseen. It's a point that is easily inferred from John Pugsley's "The Alpha Strategy."

    Beyond a few basic functions, most of what governments do is a confidence game, a grift; except unlike con-men and grifters, the scale is enormous.
     
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  10. WAB

    WAB AH Elite

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    Frederic Bastiat’s treatise ‘The Law’ does an outstanding job of laying out the appropriate role of government in society. It is as relevant today as it was then.
     
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  11. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    @WAB - those are the first 3 books I recommend (incl. The Law) to folks who are interested in economics. There are plenty of others, but those 3 are short, to the point, and easy to digest. IMO, they provide the context and foundation for understanding more thorough study. Jumping into Hayek, von Mises, Friedman, et al is like trying to study the calculus without first learning arithmetic and algebra.
     

  12. WAB

    WAB AH Elite

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    Agreed, establish a foundation in the power of dispersed vs central control, self interest and property rights, and you quickly grasp the appropriate role of government in society.
     

  13. Ray B

    Ray B AH Elite

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    In 1973 Prof. Friedman gave a talk about the forces that were pushing government to become a "Leviathan". There were (and still are) two reasons people lobby to have action by the government. Reason One is someone (person/group A) wants the government to regulate/curtail/stop actions by someone else (person/group B). This can be as slight as requiring B to keep their dog on a leash, driving less than 55 miles per hour on up to as all encompassing as limiting a persons choices in automobiles or preventing a company from producing a product or becoming economically viable. The lobbyists may even push for the government to extend its influence beyond its borders and interfere with other person/companies/countries.
    Reason Two is someone (person/group C) want the government to do something FOR C and have it paid for by person/group D. This can be as individualized as requiring an employer to give an employee a day off on a holiday or as all encompassing as paying for healthcare and college tuition for all.

    Whenever you see someone proposing action by the government, ask yourself which group the proposer belongs to. Are they A or C. Answering that will lead you to the motivation and their end goal.
     
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  14. cpr0312

    cpr0312 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    60688509_2505646852780018_3910375991372939264_n.jpg
     
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  15. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    The Greatest Generation didn't want their kids, the boomers, to go through what they experienced. They voted for massive defense expenditures and protective social programs. Boomers, the most overindulged generation that every lived, in order to maintain their lifestyle and dump as much personal responsibility for their own actions on the government, voted for debt to pay for it. The next generation, burdened with student loan debt, now expects the same treatment, let us off the hook. We get the government for which we vote. Where it goes from here, no one really knows.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  16. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    The end goal is always control, is it not?



    C. S. Lewis had a good quote on it, too
     
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  17. sgt_zim

    sgt_zim AH Elite

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    Neither of those things could have come to pass without FDR laying the foundation for the USD's destruction. That is where it will inevitably go.
     
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  18. WAB

    WAB AH Elite

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    One of the greatest minds of all time. I can only imagine the conversations that he, Tolkien and the rest of their group must have had.
     
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  19. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    And he was elected three times!
     

  20. markm

    markm AH Veteran

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    Just goes to show you how stupid people really are
     
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