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cpr0312

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sgt_zim

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Without the sacrifices of the Red Army, you would not have made a stab at the Deutsche Wehmacht.
And the Russians none without the help of Roosevelt's land/lease agreement.
Above all the Japanese are eternally grateful to you that you have detonated the atomic bomb twice.
As the only country in the world so far for the good of mankind, isn't it?
Whether or not Stimson's study was accurate, and I think it probably was, invading Honshu would have cost the US another 400-800K KIA, and between about 1.5 and 4M total casualties. It was estimated that 5-10M Japanese would have been killed.

So that would somehow be better than nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Wow. You have some really odd priorities if that's what you think.
 

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In a shocking development, the US mainstream media has chosen to ignore this story. or maybe it was just a simple oversight.

 
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Boyd Brooks

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In a shocking development, the US mainstream media has chosen to ignore this story. or maybe it was just a simple oversight.

Wow! No problem videoing the attack or holding the door open to drag the victim outside, but can’t help, pathetic!
I would have guess New York before Georgia though!
 

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While, I was not alive then, my father certainly was. As I was told, on the eve of the first bomb, his liberty ship was diverted to Papeete, where the french Chargé d’affaires came and arrested the ship so it would not leave port. (My father thought it was a ploy for the Sailors and Seamen to spend the night in port and spend money on the island, which they did.) The next afternoon, after the bomb dropped the ship was free to leave. The quick surrender of Japan saved many lives on both sides, perhaps my fathers' too, as the Japanese Navy was sinking a lot of ships.
 

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I heard an incomplete story on the news. The Bidet told a joke to the graduating class of the Coast Guard Academy- something about the relationship between the Navy and the Coast Guard- evidently it was taken by the Coast Guard to be an insult rather than a joke- so they were quiet and didn't respond as the Bidet expected. so he criticized them- asking if they had gotten out of bed or something of the sort- because they had not applauded at his insult which he thought was a joke. anyway- one more example of how this Bozo is unattached from reality.
 

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I heard an incomplete story on the news. The Bidet told a joke to the graduating class of the Coast Guard Academy- something about the relationship between the Navy and the Coast Guard- evidently it was taken by the Coast Guard to be an insult rather than a joke- so they were quiet and didn't respond as the Bidet expected. so he criticized them- asking if they had gotten out of bed or something of the sort- because they had not applauded at his insult which he thought was a joke. anyway- one more example of how this Bozo is unattached from reality.
https://nypost.com/2021/05/19/biden-chides-dull-coast-guard-grads-in-wild-speech/

More on the fiasco. I really hope Joe is never out boating and has to call the Coast Guard.
 

lwaters

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Damn that was kind of like asking a Marine how he liked the Navy
 

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Poorest excuse for a leader in this country's history. Love how he keeps telling the press, "I'm not allowed to take questions". "I'll get in trouble if I answer that".

This is the President of the United States telling the world he is run by those below him and they call the shots, not him. An utter, and dangerous embarrassment! Give me Jimmy Carter over this assclown any day of the week! Jimmy the C was a joke, but compared to Biteme, he was a brilliant upstanding guy.
I would implore Nancy to pull the plug on Joe, but Cameltoe would likely be even worse.
 

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While, I was not alive then, my father certainly was. As I was told, on the eve of the first bomb, his liberty ship was diverted to Papeete, where the french Chargé d’affaires came and arrested the ship so it would not leave port. (My father thought it was a ploy for the Sailors and Seamen to spend the night in port and spend money on the island, which they did.) The next afternoon, after the bomb dropped the ship was free to leave. The quick surrender of Japan saved many lives on both sides, perhaps my fathers' too, as the Japanese Navy was sinking a lot of ships.
Sounds like your dad was maybe in the Merchant Marine? My dad was too, sailed all over the Pacific Theatre on various ships and tugs. Started on an old wooden coastal lumber steam schooner that had a torpedo just miss them once somewhere in the south Pacific.
He didnt sail on any Liberty ships but did sail on the later Victory ship type till just after the war. Ship called the Wayne Victory. Victory ships were named after colleges of all things.
 

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Many things can be watched today from different perspective.

But we know the truth about nazi regime, "valliantly" supportred by wermacht.
Concentration camps, extermination policies, racial laws, of third reich policies.

On wemracht: For occupied territiories OKW order was, to shoot 100 local people for one dead german soldier, and 50 locals for one wounded german soldier. This policy was enforced in occupied countries to the letter, from september 1941 to the end of the war. Entire villages have beem burned and civilians killed under this order. (Or German soldiers, following the orders)

None of the allied countries fighting the germans had similar policy. And especially not in writing.

For soviet war effort, the help of western allies must be thoroghly historically researched to know the actual effect on a battle fields.

But, soviet production of for example t34 tanks, or katyusha launchers to me doesnt give an impression of peasent and farming country, during total military collapse, desperate for war materials. Quite the opposite. What soviet union needed was a second front on the west. And this was endlessly delayed, till invasion of Normandy in june 1944.

By the D day, battle of kursk was already won by august 1943, stallingrad won in februray 1943, moscow won january 1942, etc,... all major battles already won, by soviets before D day.

For another example, Anthony Beevor, in the book "Berlin: the downfall 1945", claim that entire soviet divisions, have been re-armed, rifles mosin nagant replaced by shpagin submachne guns, more suitable for urban warfare. To rearm the entire divisons (in another part of europe) is not a small industrial or logisitc effort. It is a big effort by industrial giant.

The highest concentration of artillery in history, ever, was actually soviet, on battle of berlin. Depending of source, 20-40.000 guns. (industry and logistic again)

Biggest tank battle ever in history, at Kursk, again, won by soviets - and they were using tanks, not slingshots, or pitchforks - which in fact means strong supporting industry to supply tanks, and other materials.
etc etc
I don't believe that anyone who fairly studies the history of the Second World War would deny that it was indeed the Soviet Union who carried the brunt of the fighting in Europe and contributed the most to the eventual collapse of the Third Reich. While it was doing so, it also bore by a wide margin the greatest sacrifices among its civilian population. Sacrifices that were repaid in kind in large measure as Soviet armies rolled across East Prussia and into Eastern Germany.

No one will ever know the actual combat value of the Allied Lend Lease materiel supporting the Soviet effort. I think a valid case can be made that the vast number of trucks that were shipped freed up at least some meaningful Soviet industrial production to focus on armored fighting vehicles and the subsequent production of the finest tank of the war with the T34 series. The export of allied fighters (nearly 5000 P39N fighters alone went to the Soviet Union where they proved very effective at killing panzers and Luftwaffe bombers with their 37mm gun), helped buy time for the eventual vast production of the squadrons of ILL-2M Stormavick fighter bombers and YAK and LA series fighters that won air superiority in the East.

But that fair reading of history also should not discount the effect of the allied victory in North Africa which resulted in 200K German casualties by '43 and another 250K casualties in Italy through '44. This of course does not count the German divisions committed to the Italian campaign that were not available for use on the Eastern Front. Additionally, the Allied strategic bombing campaign tied up and destroyed an enormous amount of Luftwaffe capability that could not be deployed in the East (not counting damage to Germany's industrial capacity). Finally, I don't believe even the most patriotic Russian would argue that it is likely that the Reich would have collapsed in the Spring of '45 had not the Allies invaded in the summer of '44.

With respect to Japan, I have no patience with those who believe the US should not had dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. First of all, they were hardly the most destructive weapon being used against Japanese cities. Operation Meeting House, which was the fire bombing raid of the night of 9/10 March '45, destroyed 16 square miles of the city of Tokyo, killed at least 100k people and left over a million homeless. And It was just one of many dozens of such raids.

However, in spite of such bombings, the war party remained firmly in control of the government, and the Battle of Okinawa had given an all too frightening preview of what the invasion of Honshu would certainly entail. The casualties from the two atomic bombs are unknown but 150k is a fairly well accepted guess. Not many more than the single raid on Tokyo - raids that were continuing nightly across the Japanese Islands over other cities. But the new weapon was indeed terrifying, and every critically accepted history of the war acknowledges the bomb's effect in moving the Japanese cabinet to accept peace with the single condition to retain the emperor.

Most historians conservatively estimate that decision saved as many as a million US casualties and 10 million Japanese - the majority of whom would have been civilians.
 

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Without the sacrifices of the Red Army, you would not have made a stab at the Deutsche Wehmacht.
And the Russians none without the help of Roosevelt's land/lease agreement.
Above all the Japanese are eternally grateful to you that you have detonated the atomic bomb twice.
As the only country in the world so far for the good of mankind, isn't it?
Without a doubt the Red Army made it easier to defeat Germany, however it would been done either way, just would have taken longer and cost more lives on all sides, but it would have been accomplished. The longer the war went on, the better equipped the US became and dont think Harry T wouldnt have used the bomb on Germany as well, because he certainly would have.
Thats what it came down to, who got the bomb first: we did. That we used it on Japan cost many lives, but saved countless more lives that would have been lost on both sides if not used when it was.
It was a ballsy move by Truman to make that decision, I am not sure FDR would have had the guts to, maybe. We'll never know.
As to Japan being eternally grateful that we did bomb them, thats sort of a ludicrous assertion, maybe some are, it saved many lives. But in the end it was necessary, and that it took more than one to convince them is astonishing in itself!
Its Lend Lease, btw, not Land Lease.
 

wesheltonj

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Sounds like your dad was maybe in the Merchant Marine? My dad was too, sailed all over the Pacific Theatre on various ships and tugs. Started on an old wooden coastal lumber steam schooner that had a torpedo just miss them once somewhere in the south Pacific.
He didnt sail on any Liberty ships but did sail on the later Victory ship type till just after the war. Ship called the Wayne Victory. Victory ships were named after colleges of all things.

Yes, he was during WW2. He sailed in the North Atlantic and North and South Pacific during the war. He managed to avoid both the German and Japanese Navy’s. When Korea started the first that were drafted were “draft dodging former Merchant Marines.” He was given a choice back into the Merchant Marines or the Army. He took the Army as not to be fooled again, on what constitutes service. And never voted for another Democratic after that.
 

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Yes, he was during WW2. He sailed in the North Atlantic and North and South Pacific during the war. He managed to avoid both the German and Japanese Navy’s. When Korea started the first that were drafted were “draft dodging former Merchant Marines.” He was given a choice back into the Merchant Marines or the Army. He took the Army as not to be fooled again, on what constitutes service. And never voted for another Democratic after that.
Thats funny, same thing happened to my dad, who by 1950 was married, had a business and a kid on the way, my older brother. He went down to the draft board with a letter from Uncle Sam saying due to his wartime service in the MM, he was exempt from further service/drafting. They took his letter and laughed, said it was worthless!
An older gal behind the counter said, "give me your orders" and " dont worry about it sweetie". He never heard from them again!
My grandpa was so mad he went and cashed in all his war bonds, and told the clerk, "apparently the word of the govt is worthless, so as far as I am concerned so are these bonds, gimme my money back!"
 

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The military also was not exempt from the logic of "I've done my part." Dad was a bombardier in B-25's in the China Burma Theater. He survived seventy missions, being shot down twice (they rode it in both times), and won the Distinguished Flying Cross. He initially stayed in the reserves, but was offered an option to get out as the North Koreans began their invasion of the South. He jumped rather than fell through that crack as fast as he could.
 

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Without the sacrifices of the Red Army, you would not have made a stab at the Deutsche Wehmacht.

Bullshit... As some other smart folks have already mentioned, Hitler's strategy of dividing the war into multiple fronts hastened the defeat of Germany. The Red Army certainly contributed to a more expedient defeat of Germany, but they would have fallen eventually... Unfortunately for the Soviets, their biggest resource toward the war effort was expendable soldiers.

Above all the Japanese are eternally grateful to you that you have detonated the atomic bomb twice.

The Japanese ought to be eternally grateful to the USA for many things. As I already alluded to, tell me where else in human history has a defeated nation got to keep it's Emperor, it's country, and get help in reconstruction?

As for the bombs, ironically, the USA's decision to use atomic weapons on Japan ultimately saved more Japanese lives than they took. The forecast of casualties in the event of a land invasion would have exponentially exceeded the actual number of Japanese lives lost from the bombs.

Japan had the opportunity to surrender multiple times both prior to, and after the first bomb and chose not to... The world should have no sympathy for Japan and the final outcome of the war in the Pacific. They got better than they deserved considering the way in which the war started.

As the only country in the world so far for the good of mankind, isn't it?

At the time, I doubt Truman cared much about anything but ending the war with Japan and saving as many American lives as possible. That in itself is more than enough justification to use the bombs. As far as I am concerned it's too bad they were not ready in time for use on Germany as well...

I also think the devastation demonstrated by using the bombs was a glaring example to the world of the no-win situation that would result from a nuclear war between countries that both have nuclear weapons. So, yeah, it actually may have been for the "good of mankind" after all..
 

jpr9954

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Bullshit... As some other smart folks have already mentioned, Hitler's strategy of dividing the war into multiple fronts hastened the defeat of Germany. The Red Army certainly contributed to a more expedient defeat of Germany, but they would have fallen eventually... Unfortunately for the Soviets, their biggest resource toward the war effort was expendable soldiers.



The Japanese ought to be eternally grateful to the USA for many things. As I already alluded to, tell me where else in human history has a defeated nation got to keep it's Emperor, it's country, and get help in reconstruction?

As for the bombs, ironically, the USA's decision to use atomic weapons on Japan ultimately saved more Japanese lives than they took. The forecast of casualties in the event of a land invasion would have exponentially exceeded the actual number of Japanese lives lost from the bombs.

Japan had the opportunity to surrender multiple times both prior to, and after the first bomb and chose not to... The world should have no sympathy for Japan and the final outcome of the war in the Pacific. They got better than they deserved considering the way in which the war started.



At the time, I doubt Truman cared much about anything but ending the war with Japan and saving as many American lives as possible. That in itself is more than enough justification to use the bombs. As far as I am concerned it's too bad they were not ready in time for use on Germany as well...

I also think the devastation demonstrated by using the bombs was a glaring example to the world of the no-win situation that would result from a nuclear war between countries that both have nuclear weapons. So, yeah, it actually may have been for the "good of mankind" after all..
One of the lives probably saved was that of my Dad. He had been in the Army since late 1940 and had been shipped back to the Miami Overseas Replacement Depot in 1945. As a combat engineer, I'm pretty sure he would have been sent to the Pacific if we invaded Japan. As it was, he met my mom, got married, went to college, taught school for a couple of years, and then went back into the Army. He ended up in Vietnam twice as senior NCO.
 

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