PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

[Hank2211]

Could someone tell me how this kind of lion hunting helps to get the lion off the ENDANGERED species list ????
The BIG thing that the anti's fuel the fire with is "IT'S ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST......"
If we can manage the lion to get off the list it's a WIN WIN for us....

If by being on the "endangered species list" you mean that the lion is presently categorized as 'vulnerable' on the IUCN Red List, then fine, yes it is.

But here's the thing about lions. Given some space, and enough food, they will reproduce like, well, hardly any other animal. Gestation period is about 110 days, and the female gives birth to 2-4 cubs. And there are usually lots of females for each male, so reproduction happens pretty regularly. There's a reason lions were categorized as vermin in the Africa of old, when all was wide open spaces and the population of the continent was a fraction of what it is today. This is not an animal that would be under any sort of threat if it were not for the fact of that space that they need.

So the threat - and the only real threat - to the long term survival of the species is habitat loss. Not hunting, and certainly not captive bred lion ranching or captive bred lion hunting. So captive bred lion hunting is essentially irrelevant to the survival of the species in the wild. That will be determined by other factors.

Now for a little logic. As surely as night follows day, lions will never be extinct as long as someone is rearing them on ranches. Just like the 'three amigos' (dama gazelle, addax, scimitar horned oryx) will never be extinct so long as people raise them in Texas. So in fact, I have a hard time seeing why you can't - or more likely won't - say that ranching lions guarantees the survival of the species. It doesn't hurt it, and in guarantees it. Seems simple to me. We've seen the same thing with lots of other animals - including, for example, black wildebeest, an animal that would have been extinct long ago if it were not for ranchers who raised it, and for hunters who made it worthwhile for ranchers to raise it.

What am I missing?

But if you're question is why it's on a US list, then I can't help at all. I don't know why the US takes it upon itself to sign an international treaty, and then decide it will regulate the same thing on its own terms. No answer for that one at all.

 

[Hunting Sailor]

@SafariA
So basically any of the 200 breeders in SA can sell/supply any CBL to the 10 approved farms who then follows the PHASA regulations of 30 days and other regulatory instructions. Is that a fair statement?
Or do the approved farms (Ranches) have to have the lion from birth to death in its care?

//Gus

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@SafariA
So basically any of the 200 breeders in SA can sell/supply any CBL to the 10 approved farms who then follows the PHASA regulations of 30 days and other regulatory instructions. Is that a fair statement?
Or do the approved farms (Ranches) have to have the lion from birth to death in its care?

//Gus

I know you asked @SafariA, but I think that maybe a clarification of what is happening here, at least from my perspective from a couch in Arizona, is in order. Please correct me if I'm wrong @SafariA.

I don't believe that PHASA can control anything regarding the lion breeders. The lion breeders can sell lions to whomever they want within RSA regulations. This would include to those who conduct lion hunts NOT following SAPA's guidelines and thus not on the currently approved list of 10 ranches. What PHASA is trying to do is adopt constraints within which to conduct CBL hunts. The constraints intended to separate those operators from those that do so in a way that is simply a shoot and I think most if not all would agree are wrong from those that conduct the hunts in an acceptable manner. And those operators that work within those constraints are as such allowed to be members of PHASA.

What this situation boils down to is membership in an association. There was an attempt to get those conducting CBL lion hunts out of PHASA last year. This was done in a way that thwarted a democratic process. A judge in a RSA court agreed. I.e. those who were to be kicked out of PHASA around the time of the 2016 AGM won their court case and as such remained PHASA members.

It appears to me that in response to this, those who are against the CBL hunts in any way shape or form, have decided to pick up their marbles and walk away, to form their own association. I'm not sure if this was done purely on ideological grounds, or is it a deliberate attempt to destroy PHASA?

I much rather would have liked to have seen these members work to find a solution that would have been satisfactory to a majority if not all and that was enforceable.

 

[SafariA]

All Lions that may be hunted comes from SAPA members . They are a little less than 100 of the total Lion Ranches. The 10 are accreditted Hunting Properties. Some of them do not have their own breeding facilities.

I will post their Norms and Standards as soon as I receive a copy . PHASA is not involved in the breeding Ranches .
They have their own set of criteria to be met which is also included in SAPA Norms and Standards. These were supported by WRSA ( Wildlife Ranching South Africa ) as well as CHASA (Confederation if Hunters Associations of South Africa)

 

[Royal27]

From SAPA website:

http://www.sapredators.co.za/directory.asp

Accredited Lion Hunting Establishments in South Africa

The South African Predator Association (SAPA) has accredited several lion hunting establishments, professional hunters and outfitters that offer world-class lion hunts in South Africa. Accreditation was awarded only after thorough assessment by an independent team of assessors and means that the particular establishment conducts its business according to SAPA’s Norms and Standards for Hunting Ranch lions in South Africa.

Click the selected area in the menu for a detailed listing of Hunting Destinations, Professional Hunters and Outfitters in South Africa.

http://www.sapredators.co.za/p24/sa...edator-association-accreditation-process.html


The South African Predator Association Accreditation Process

1. The Assessment Committee

Authority

The Assessment Committee is a standing committee mandated and appointed by SAPA’s Executive Council. It makes recommendations for approval by the SAPA Executive Council.

Composition

The Assessment Committee consists of:

• one member of the Executive Council as chair and facilitator;
• two consultants with an thorough knowledge of the wildlife industry appointed by the Executive Council; and
• An experienced professional hunter appointed by PHASA.

Functions

The functions of the Assessment Committee are:

• to consider the applicant’s application and operator assessment and to decide if a formal assessment by the Assessment Committee is warranted;
• to execute a thorough on-site assessment of the applicant’s lion keeping and hunting facilities and his practices based on the assessment protocol set out in the assessment score card (Appendix B);
• to convey its findings to the applicant and to provide explanations where necessary; and
• to make recommendations to the SAPA Executive Council regarding the accreditation of the applicant’s lion hunting destination.
  

2. Procedure

1. An applicant must be a SAPA member and the owner of the land where the legal lion hunting facility is situated or a hunting outfitter hiring the legal lion hunting facility from the landowner,
2. The lion hunting facilities owned by the applicant or where the outfitter is hiring and will be hunting, as well as the hunting procedures will be assessed.
3. An application for accreditation must be submitted, in writing, to the Chairperson of the Assessment Committee.
4. The Assessment Committee will acknowledge receipt of the application and provide the score card for evaluation by the operator (Appendix A), together with the policy document Norms and standards for hunting captive-bred lions in SA and SAPA’s Code of Conduct to the applicant.
5. The applicant will assesses his/her lion hunting facility on the score card and submits the operator assessment to the Assessment Committee.
   The objective of the operator assessment is threefold:
   1. to enable the applicant to understand all the assessment criteria;
   2. to gain experience in the application of the criteria to his own situation;
   3. to ensure full understanding of all the relevant evidence and documentation required for the formal assessment; and
   4. to enable the applicant to do pro active preparation for the accreditation inspection.
6. If the applicant’s operator assessment scores below 75% no formal assessment will be done. The Assessment Committee advises the applicant on areas for improvement. A second application may be submitted after the improvements have been made.
7. If the applicant scores 75% or more:
   1. the Assessment Committee will notify the applicant that a formal assessment will be done;
   2. an assessment date is determined by mutual agreement between the Chairperson of the Assessment Committee and the applicant;
   3. an assessment fee, to be determined by the Assessment Committee, will be charged prior to the assessment to cover travel and consulting costs;
   4. the applicant will need to provide the members of the Assessment Committee with accommodation; and
   5. the applicant must provide the members of the Assessment Committee with all information and documentation they may require.
8. The Assessment Committee will visit the applicant’s lion hunting facility and execute the assessment by inspecting and scoring the various criteria on the score card (Appendix B), with the applicant providing explanations when and where necessary.
9. At least one member of the Assessment Committee accompanying the operator on an official lion hunt is an integral part of the assessment process.
10. The Assessment Committee will deliberate on the detailed findings of the assessment in a spirit of transparency and fairness to reach a final unanimous conclusion.
11. A minimum score of 85% is needed for an approval for accreditation.
12. The Assessment Committee will report the outcome of the assessment to the SAPA Executive Council. In the case of an approval, they will recommend that a certificate of accreditation, valid for 5 years, but subject to annual revision, is awarded to the applicant’s lion hunting destination.
13. If the application is not approved, the applicant may re-apply for assessment after six months.
14. The decision of the Executive Council will be conveyed to the applicant, in writing, by the Chairperson of the Assessment Committee.
15. The decision of the Executive Council is final.
16. The applicant may appeal the decision in a formal letter of appeal addressed to the Chairperson of the Assessment Committee stating the reason for the appeal.
17. Once an official appeal has been lodged, it will be referred to the Executive Council for further investigation and processing.
    
    

DOWNLOADABLE DOCUMENTS
# Name Description
1. Application for Accreditation Download the Accreditation Application Form
2. Assessment Protocol for Accreditation Download the Assessment Protocol and Assessment Form
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© South African Predator Association. All Rights Reserved.
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http://www.sapredators.co.za/p33/sapa/sapa-norms-and-standards-for-hunting-managed-ranch-lions.html

SAPA Norms and standards for hunting managed ranch lions

1. Objectives of this document
Considering the provisions relating to the hunting of managed ranch lions, as contained in the Threatened or Protected Species (TOPS) Regulations that have been promulgated under the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No. 10 of 2004), recognizing the differences in provincial legislative requirements, and considering the deficiencies and limitations of these requirements, the South African Predator Association wishes to proclaim its own standards and requirements for this all important sector of the large predator industry. The aim of these standards and requirements is three fold:

• to create uniformity amidst large differences between provincial standards, requirements and legislation;
• to define the ground rules for the hunting of managed ranch lions; and
• to create a basis for alignment with the professional hunting industry.

The requirements set out hereunder will, subject to approval at the SAPA Annual General Meeting, be binding on all members of the Association. Failure to comply with these norms and standards will lead to disciplinary action and possible expulsion of the offender.


2. Major concerns
Seen from a national and international perspective, there are five key areas of concern relating to the South African managed ranch lion hunting industry that this document will aim to address:

• The size of the hunting area;
• The release period prior to the hunt;The limitation of human imprinting on lions that will be hunted;
• The hunting methods; and
• The misrepresentation of facts to hunting clients (hunters).

The norms and standards set out below are aimed at addressing the above concerns in such a way that the hunting of managed ranch lions is brought in line with best practices in the national and international trophy hunting industry.


3. Norms and standards for hunting South African Ranch Lions (i.e. managed ranch lions)
The basic norm for hunting managed ranch lions is that only lions that were raised and kept under conditions deliberately aimed at preventing human imprinting may be hunted. For hunting purposes, human imprinting on lions needs to be kept to an absolute minimum. This means that lions destined for hunting should be kept as unhabituated as possible and should be raised and kept in a way that prevents human imprinting.

Complementary to this basic norm, the preparation, as well as the conduct during the hunt is to be in line with internationally accepted standards.


NORMS AND STANDARDS

A - FACILITIES

STANDARD - A1

Purpose

Facilities for keeping and breeding lions for consumptive use.


Legislative Requirement

1. Registration of a captive breeding facility is compulsory in terms of TOPS regulations and legislation.
2. Requirements in terms of the Animals protection Act need to be adhered to.
3. Technical specifications for breeding and keeping facilities differ from province to province and can be found in each province’s ordinances, regulations and notices.
4. Specifications are subjected to continuous review and it is best practice for all permit holders to maintain contact with the relevant regulatory authority.
   

SAPA Standard

1. Facilities for animals destined for hunting are to be designed and constructed in accordance with the relevant provinces’ technical specifications.
2. The following standards with regard to keeping facilities must be adhered to:
   • Minimum size of: 400m2 per animal
   • Maximum of 10 animals per unit.
   • Positioning for minimum human imprinting.
     

Measurable Indicators

1. SAPA accreditation, valid for 3 Years, revised annually.
2. SAPA classification of facility as:
   • Breeding – Consumptive – Hunting & derivatives; or
   • Breeding – Consumptive – Derivatives only.

STANDARD - A2

Purpose

Facilities for Hunting

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements differ from province to province.

SAPA Standard

Size of hunting area as per legislative requirements.

1. Hunting area:
   • Natural veld area.
   • No cultivated land
   • Diversity of habitat
   • Sufficient non-domesticated prey available.
   • Water provisioned area.
2. Position of hunting area
   • At least 1 km away from breeding/keeping facilities.
   • Minimal unnatural structures.

Measurable Indicators

SAPA accreditation, valid for 3 Years, but revised annually.


B - BREEDING AND KEEPING FOR HUNTING

STANDARD - B1

Purpose

Breeding for hunting

Legislative Requirement

TOPS and Provincial Permits are compulsory.
Legislative requirements differ from province to province.

SAPA Standard

1. No breeding animals to be sourced from wild populations.
2. Only genetically sound and healthy animals to be used for breeding.
3. Genetic identification and recording of breeding lions is compulsory.

Measurable Indicators

An effective administrative system, reflecting the origin and identification of each animal



STANDARD - B2

Purpose

Keeping for hunting – including animals purchased from other breeders and kept for selling to outfitters for hunting

Legislative Requirement

NEMBA and provincial permits are compulsory.

SAPA Standard

1. Minimum interaction with the human environment from birth
2. No hand rearing
3. General “hands off” management techniques with regard to feeding, husbandry, medical care and environmental enrichment
4. Identification of animals bred and raised for hunting purposes is compulsory
5. No trade in human imprinted animals.

C - HUSBANDRY OF LIONS FOR HUNTING

STANDARD - C1

Purpose

Safety

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements differ from province to province.
Safety plan as part of Management Plan to be approved by provincial authority

SAPA Standard

1. Construction of facilities and management systems are to comply with the relevant provincial legislation
2. Safety plan addressing fire, noise, intruders, escapes, disease, power failures, floods, dangerous misconduct of staff, keys and alarm management.

Measurable Indicators

SAPA Accreditation.



STANDARD - C2

Purpose

Health

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements of province.
Health plan as part of Management Plan to be approved by provincial authority

SAPA Standard

Best practice to be followed for maintenance, cleaning, disease prevention, parasite prevention, odors, fly and flea prevention.

Measurable Indicators

Breeder/keeper to appoint a competent, registered vet knowledgeable in the field of predator health.



STANDARD - C3

Purpose

Feeding

Legislative Requirement

Feeding plan as part of Management Plan to be approved by provincial authority

SAPA Standard

Feeding has to be done in a way that minimizes exposure to the human environment
Breeder/keeper to adhere to a vet approved feeding programme



D - MANAGEMENT AND ADMIN

STANDARD - D1

Purpose

Permits

Legislative Requirement

All activities regarding the keeping, breeding, trade and hunting of ranch lions are subject to TOPS CITES and provincial legislation and permit requirements.

SAPA Standard

Comply with provincial, TOPS and CITES permit requirements

Measurable Indicators

SAPA Accreditation.



STANDARD - D2

Purpose

Identification

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements of province and CITES requirements

SAPA Standard

All managed ranch lions must be properly identified.



STANDARD - D3

Purpose

Mandatory reporting of non-compliance

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements of province. ( In terms of provincial legislation Professional hunters need to report all non-compliance by clients to the provincial regulatory authority.)

SAPA Standard

SAPA Executive to be notified of non- compliance to applicable legislation by all members



STANDARD - D4

Purpose

Staff

Legislative Requirement

The Labor Relations Act and Occupational Health and Safety Act

SAPA Standard

1. Standards of fences, gates, overhangs, feeding pens, separation pens, medical facilities, animal management systems to comply with relevant provincial legislation.
2. All breeders and keepers are to ensure adequate training of all levels of staff involved with the management of the facilities and related procedures

E - MARKETING

STANDARD - E1

Purpose

Marketing an authentic hunt

Legislative Requirement

Legislative requirements of province.

SAPA Standard

1. All National and Provincial legislative requirements.
2. No misrepresentation of the facts regarding the hunt.
3. No “catalogue marketing” of individual (specific) animals.
4. No personification of lions (names) may be used in advertising
5. Photographs of previous hunts may be used.

Measurable Indicators

Marketing Brochures



STANDARD - E2

Purpose

Minimum information in marketing material

Legislative Requirement

All National and Provincial legislation pertaining to advertising and marketing.

SAPA Standard

Minimum information to be included in marketing material.

• That a managed ranch lion will be hunted
• That it will be a walk-and-stalk hunt
• That special arrangements may be made for disabled hunters
• The applicable legislative requirements
• The topography and habitat of the hunting venue
• Facilities and infrastructure of the hunting venue

F - THE HUNT

STANDARD - F1

Purpose

Authenticity of the hunt

Legislative Requirement

All relevant National and Provincial legislation.

SAPA Standard

1. Everything possible should be done by the landowner, the PH and the hunting outfitter to deliver a real African experience.
2. Appropriate sport hunting conduct is to be applicable to all hunts of managed ranch lions.
3. A standardized SAPA evaluation questionnaire is available from the outfitter and may be completed and signed by hunters as part of a quality control procedure.

Measurable Indicators

Feedback from the client will be evaluated by the SAPA Executive and, if necessary, further investigation and/or correctional/disciplinary procedures will be undertaken.



STANDARD - F2

Purpose

Requirements for an authentic hunt

Legislative Requirement

All relevant National and Provincial legislation.

SAPA Standard

1. A written contract, in agreement with the relevant legislation and in line with hunting agreement and marketing material, in which all vital aspects of the hunt are stipulated
2. The client should be properly briefed about all operational aspects of the hunt.
3. Emergency procedures need to be explained to the hunter and the hunting party.
4. Hunting must take place according to the principles of fair chase.

STANDARD - F3

Purpose

Practices explicitly prohibited

Legislative Requirement

All relevant National and Provincial legislation.

SAPA Standard

All relevant National and Provincial legislation. All prohibitions in Section 72 of the TOPS Regulations to be adhered to.



STANDARD - F4

Purpose

Responsibilities of the hunting outfitter and his PH

Legislative Requirement

All relevant National and Provincial legislation.

SAPA Standard

1. It is the outfitter’s responsibility to ensure an authentic hunt.
2. Outfitters must maintain the highest standards of ethics and skill during the hunt.
3. Effective tracking and hunting skills.
4. No alcohol may be consumed before and during the hunt by any member of the hunting party

G - TRADE IN DERIVATIVES

STANDARD - G1

Purpose

Trade in lion products

Legislative Requirement

All relevant National and Provincial legislation and all
CITES, regulations.

SAPA Standard

Keepers/breeders/outfitters may legally trade in lion products.
SAPA members to strictly comply with all statutory requirements.
SAPA members must ensure transparency and high ethical standards in the harvesting of material.



DOWNLOADABLE DOCUMENTS
# Name Description
1. Norms and Standards for Hunting *.pdf format (264kb)
Left click the document name to view the document or Right click the document name and Select Save Target as... to download the document to your computer.


© South African Predator Association. All Rights Reserved.
No article or picture may be reproduced\published without the written consent of the South African Predator Association.

 

[Wheels]

But if you're question is why it's on a US list, then I can't help at all. I don't know why the US takes it upon itself to sign an international treaty, and then decide it will regulate the same thing on its own terms. No answer for that one at all.

As a non American, I can see how this is puzzling to you and to all non Americans. It is not puzzling to us. We are Americans!

What you fail to realize, since you are not enlightened to the extent of the average American. Is that we are so superior both ethically and morally to all of you that live in the inferior countries, that we have to make these types of decisions for you since you are incapable of coming to a fair and noble decision on your own. Please don't think of us as neocolonialist or imperialists. We are not. We are just capable of making much better decision regarding how you should live your life in your country than you are. We don't want you to feel ashamed or inferior regarding your capabilities. Just think of yourself as a two year old and America as your loving mother that wants the best for you. In a few hundred years your country may grow up and be able to make these difficult decisions on your own. In the mean time, please understand and accept your place in the world.

 

[Wheels]

So no one thinks I was serious about my previous post.

 

[IvW]

As a non American, I can see how this is puzzling to you and to all non Americans. It is not puzzling to us. We are Americans!

What you fail to realize, since you are not enlightened to the extent of the average American. Is that we are so superior both ethically and morally to all of you that live in the inferior countries, that we have to make these types of decisions for you since you are incapable of coming to a fair and noble decision on your own. Please don't think of us as neocolonialist or imperialists. We are not. We are just capable of making much better decision regarding how you should live your life in your country than you are. We don't want you to feel ashamed or inferior regarding your capabilities. Just think of yourself as a two year old and America as your loving mother that wants the best for you. In a few hundred years your country may grow up and be able to make these difficult decisions on your own. In the mean time, please understand and accept your place in the world.

I am a South African and find your post offensive.

Please do not belittle us because we are Non American. We answer to somebody higher than you or America.

You cannot teach us anything about living and surviving in Africa.

Having hunted in 5 African countries you should no better than making idiotic statements like this.

You may think you are very smart and of superior race, please remember each time you hunt here you have a two year old who is incapable of making fair decisions but is much more capable than yourself to keep you in one piece so you can get safely back to your mother America.

You despise me with this post.

 

[SafariA]

 

[billc]

I am a South African and find your post offensive.

Please do not belittle us because we are Non American. We answer to somebody higher than you or America.

You cannot teach us anything about living and surviving in Africa.

Having hunted in 5 African countries you should no better than making idiotic statements like this.

You may think you are very smart and of superior race, please remember each time you hunt here you have a two year old who is incapable of making fair decisions but is much more capable than yourself to keep you in one piece so you can get safely back to your mother America.

You despise me with this post.

You do know he was making a joke right.

 

[IvW]

You do know he was making a joke right.

I found that post highly offensive, joke or not.

This is not the the place to post crap like that.

 

[Hogpatrol]

IvW, yeah, that was posted in jest! Do not take that seriously! Unfortunately, there are MANY American politicians that think that way and insist on sticking their noses where they don't belong. Sometimes I just wish some highly respected foreign head of state would just come out and tell the U.S. "Just who the Fk do you think you are to tell us what we can and can't do"?

As far as offensive.

 

[robertq]

If by being on the "endangered species list" you mean that the lion is presently categorized as 'vulnerable' on the IUCN Red List, then fine, yes it is.

But here's the thing about lions. Given some space, and enough food, they will reproduce like, well, hardly any other animal. Gestation period is about 110 days, and the female gives birth to 2-4 cubs. And there are usually lots of females for each male, so reproduction happens pretty regularly. There's a reason lions were categorized as vermin in the Africa of old, when all was wide open spaces and the population of the continent was a fraction of what it is today. This is not an animal that would be under any sort of threat if it were not for the fact of that space that they need.

So the threat - and the only real threat - to the long term survival of the species is habitat loss. Not hunting, and certainly not captive bred lion ranching or captive bred lion hunting. So captive bred lion hunting is essentially irrelevant to the survival of the species in the wild. That will be determined by other factors.

Now for a little logic. As surely as night follows day, lions will never be extinct as long as someone is rearing them on ranches. Just like the 'three amigos' (dama gazelle, addax, scimitar horned oryx) will never be extinct so long as people raise them in Texas. So in fact, I have a hard time seeing why you can't - or more likely won't - say that ranching lions guarantees the survival of the species. It doesn't hurt it, and in guarantees it. Seems simple to me. We've seen the same thing with lots of other animals - including, for example, black wildebeest, an animal that would have been extinct long ago if it were not for ranchers who raised it, and for hunters who made it worthwhile for ranchers to raise it.

What am I missing?

But if you're question is why it's on a US list, then I can't help at all. I don't know why the US takes it upon itself to sign an international treaty, and then decide it will regulate the same thing on its own terms. No answer for that one at all.

Hank, the problem is the CBL will not survive in the wild ....... It will be vulnerable to wild lions.....Were not talking about the 3 Amigod....

 

[Hunting Sailor]

Thanks @Royal27 for posting the standards.

I’ll dig more into the standards, but basically the tangibles I took off was the minimum standard size of land to keep lions that are bred for hunting is 400m2/4300sq ft/0.1 Acre per lion and not more than 10 lions per camp.
The hunting ranch part has to be at least 1Km away from the breeding facility.

//Gus

 

[Royal27]

I found that post highly offensive, joke or not.

This is not the the place to post crap like that.

If you find an American sarcastically making fun of an American problem offensive (the American overall societal and governmental belief that we should rule the world being the problem) then I'm not sure what to tell you...

The joke was both funny and made a great point regarding American overreach, in exactly the right place and conversation for the point to be made.

Just my two cents.

 

[robertq]

 

[Wheels]

I am a South African and find your post offensive.

Please do not belittle us because we are Non American. We answer to somebody higher than America.

You cannot teach ua anything about living and surviving in Africa.

WOW!

I have never met Hank in person, but we have gone back and forth on threads enough over the past five years that I think we respect each other, I know I respect him, and I think he understands the sarcasm and humor in the post that you reference. The post reflects US politics and policies over the past 70 years in a way that most people on this forum would easily understand. It doesn't reflect my opinion at all, it is hyperbole for America's actions in our lifetimes.

America did a pretty good job of staying out of world affairs until WWII. We even let the war go on for two years until we were sucker punched. If I recall my 8th grade history correctly, it was Germany and Italy that declared war on us after the Japanese attack, not the other way around. Since WWII, things have been completely different. We rebuilt Europe and Japan. Europe wanted our protection for another 45 years as the cold war went on. They evidently still do since only a couple of NATO countries are paying the required 2% while we cover them paying 4% of GDP. Africa and Asia wanted a handout after colonialism. We gave it freely.

Since WWII, America has acted as the worlds policeman, effectively hacking everyone in the world off. Non American's understand this. Most American's understand this and don't care for it. By acting as the worlds policeman, we have run up a national debt equal to $60,000 plus for each man, woman and child in America. American's are getting tired of this, leading to a revolt at the polls on November 8 of last year. American's are getting tired of being thought of as "the ugly American".

After my post #66, just to make sure people understood it was a joke, I made post #67. After post #67, I didn't see how anybody would not understand it as a joke in response to Hank.

If Hank is offended, then I apologize to Hank and I will ask Wayne or Jerome to remove the offending post.

I am an American! I am making fun of America! If you can't understand that, then you need more joy and fun in your life.

All the best.

 

[SafariA]

No issue I am South African too ! In the last few days I think there was way more offensive posts from our own !!!
. I got it straight away !

 

[Hunting Sailor]

I know you asked @SafariA, but I think that maybe a clarification of what is happening here, at least from my perspective from a couch in Arizona, is in order. Please correct me if I'm wrong @SafariA.

I don't believe that PHASA can control anything regarding the lion breeders. The lion breeders can sell lions to whomever they want within RSA regulations. This would include to those who conduct lion hunts NOT following SAPA's guidelines and thus not on the currently approved list of 10 ranches. What PHASA is trying to do is adopt constraints within which to conduct CBL hunts. The constraints intended to separate those operators from those that do so in a way that is simply a shoot and I think most if not all would agree are wrong from those that conduct the hunts in an acceptable manner. And those operators that work within those constraints are as such allowed to be members of PHASA.
.

Thanks for the answer @PHOENIX PHIL it doesn’t matter who answers as long as I get more info.

//Gus

 

[Hunting Sailor]

All Lions that may be hunted comes from SAPA members . They are a little less than 100 of the total Lion Ranches. The 10 are accreditted Hunting Properties. Some of them do not have their own breeding facilities.

I will post their Norms and Standards as soon as I receive a copy . PHASA is not involved in the breeding Ranches .
They have their own set of criteria to be met which is also included in SAPA Norms and Standards. These were supported by WRSA ( Wildlife Ranching South Africa ) as well as CHASA (Confederation if Hunters Associations of South Africa)

Thanks for the answer @SafariA.
Understood the breeding and the hunting may be separate entities which may deal with each other etc with the info from you and the standards poster by @Royal27.
It’s quite clear now.

//Gus