Discussion in 'Articles' started by saeng101, Nov 24, 2017.
Just a small note. Min release period accepted by Phasa is 30 days .....
For the 5% of the breeders that follows your set standards, but what about the other 95%? What standards do they follow?
Asking just out of interest, not in any way to pick a fight, as you seem to be involved and knows about the regulations, standards etc.
How many of 6000 lions in SA are part of the 5% of the breeders that have passed PHASA’s standard and are accepted?
Can you clarify the definition of a "ranched" lion?
Perhaps to me only, the first quote at least infers that the lions are open space ranched, albeit behind high fence.
The second quote leads me to believe that lions will still be raised at one location, then relocated to be hunted, with a 30 day minimum.
I guess my real question is what is the detail and guidelines that make the 5% different from the 95% in how they are raised. Why is one "captive bred" and the other is "ranched"?
no more than any animal that ive hunted.fair chase is the way my wife and i hunt,period.this picture that you print can and does also apply to any type of hunt all over the world,with any type of animal,not just lions.my question was directed toward honest,fair chase hunts,period.
This thread likely will turn into a major retread with bruised feelings on all sides, but I do personally believe there is an enormous ethical difference between hunting captive self-sustaining populations and put-and-take shooting - I don't care what the species is. If a land owner simply releases an animal into an enclosure to be killed that is not, to me, fair chase hunting - the smaller the enclosure, the more egregious an ethical lapse. If, on the other hand, the enclosure is so large that it exceeds the animal's normal range and the hunted animal is part of a self-sustaining population, then I think a much stronger case can be made with regards to the ethical taking of those animals. There is a sportsman channel show currently running showing some heroic fellow from my part of the country killing a hippo in SA in what is obviously a manmade stock pond of about an acre. I am sure it was a quite legal killing of a hippo - but fair chase hunting? Probably hard to ethically defend that. Lions, because they are lions, generate a lot more emotion - particularly releasing one to be shot. Hard to make the species management or protein utilization arguments with which we address many of our critics (and yes I am fully aware of the somewhat tortured argument that shooting captive lions somehow takes "pressure" off wild populations).
Ethical judgements represent the slipperiest of slopes and deepest of quagmires regardless of the issue or choice at hand. However, I personally am absolutely certain that ethical behavior and legal behavior or two very different things. I suspect most correspondents here agree with that in the course of their daily lives. The tricky part is how we apply those ethical judgements to ourselves and how we apply those ethical judgments to the actions of others. With respect to captive bred lions, I personally feel it is not fair chase hunting and not an activity in which I would wish to participate. However, I also believe it is an activity where a different conclusion reasonably could be drawn - much in the same way I draw a difference between put and take shooting and hunting self-sustaining populations. I think such a conclusion is wrong, and I think the practice makes it much harder to defend our sport, but I understand how someone would see the issue differently. I do find it instructive that the PHASA Q&A seems to carefully avoid the fair chase question.
To me this is a very simple problem to figure out no matter what side you think you come down on.
Here is the simple break down and why we must fight for all hunting if it is are cup of tea or not as long as it is legal and not poaching.
raised lion hunting anti's don't like it.
Wild lion or elephant hunting anti's don't like it
Hunting or killing of any animals anti's don't like it.
See the common thread of all the above? giving in on one does not make them stop going after the other. How many times we need to fight with each other before we see we are losing all the rights we have for hunting. There goal is to stop hunting and no matter how we do it they will not like it.
Playing the devil here. What is the difference between CBL hunting and the raised game farms in the U.S.? High fence deer hunts with animals living on high level growth hormone diets? Live pigeons shoots? Venues where gamebirds are released and then flushed with dogs and shot? Is that hunting? I'm not talking about shooting animals up against a fence aka canned hunting but there are a LOT of these quasi hunting operations in this country, mostly in the northeast and upper midwest, and we never hear a peep about them.
Herewith the full Resolution adopted. I need members to understand that there is obviously members pro and members against this. The majority voted for this proposal.
I unfortunately cannot elude to exact numbers and spesifics on how many of the 6000 lions in private ownership are on these apprives facilities.
I am merely trying to put information out so each member can make up his own mind about this issue. Ranch Lions in South Africa are not free roaming lions.
I will also try and post the SAPA Norms ans Standards as soon as I can get a copy.
I am not here to defend or reject anything .
I will also post our New Adopted Constitution .
I tried to post the NAPHA statement here . Unfortunately seems I cannot. Please refer back to the thread by Jerome. Maybe they can assist.
Herewith the new adopted Constitution as voted in by members .
I would like to urge members to read through this . There are statements made in the NAPHA statement specifically about the definition of ethical hunting .
There are quotes in the statement about this. I leave it to you to decide on this issue .
You are using the ignorant words of the antis when you call RSA lion hunting canned. Sir canned means shooting an animal in a pen! Nothing more. Are you a member of PETA or a hunter? If you are familiar with RSA or Texas for that matter you would understand that captive animals are raised and hunted and without this system you would not be on this forum!
I am so tired of so called hunters using the words of the antis!
Sorry but I’m mad,
Good point and shows the hypocrisy of this discussion
I think you are exactly correct in the question you pose. It is indeed a very slippery slope. I do "shoot" game preserves for quail and pheasants a couple of times a year. It is great fun. Neither I nor any of my colleagues who do it consider it "hunting". Pheasants released from a tower are targets - it isn't fair chase. And I participate in those shoots as well. And I do not have an ethical issue with it - I suppose because they are birds and not lions. "Shooting" a hormone enriched buck off a five-hundred acre pasture also crosses some sort of line for me. By my definition, it isn't "hunting," it is merely shooting a deer that will score a certain measurement. Have no interest in doing so - but those who desire to, can absolutely decorate their wall. Fairly or not, as we go up the food chain I think this whole discussion becomes more complicated. Oh and by the way, I, personally, do not at all feel hypocritical in shooting released birds and not wishing to participate in the shooting of engineered deer or captive bred lions. But that is purely my personal application of ethics to my personal enjoyment of this sport.
@SafariA , I appreciate the “middle of the road” manner in which you are providing information for us. Thank you.
Sadly, I suspect this issue will be even more divisive now than ever. It has already deepened the rift within PHASA and without, it appears.
Color me a skeptic, but I have a deep suspicion there is much more going on and more to this than just the CBL issue only. Politics, in-fighting, control, power, cronyism, money, etc, etc, etc
OPHAA is pissed off
NAPHA is pissed off
APHA is pissed off
SITKA Gear is pissed off
WILD SHEEP FOUNDATION is pissed off
OUTFITTERS are pissed off
PH’s are pissed off
EVERYONE is pissed off... except the anti’s
I think that POP! I just heard was a champagne cork from over at the Anti’s headquarters.
They are going to PRETEND to be all pissed off, but I suspect they are really celebrating and laughing their collective asses off!
What a cluster
im going to keep hunting as long as i can squeeze a trigger,anybody dosent like it,tough shit.see you in hell where ill be ruling,ill take care all of you antis then.
Excellent point Edward.
One doesn't have to drill down very deep about the changes. It's all about MONEY and with a finite number of dollars spent on hunting in RSA, one group, whose ethics preclude them from participating in this venue, are pissed because they may get a smaller piece of those dollars, in the form of less money spent on plains and other game hunts.
Agree with other posters that the primary winners are the anti-s.
Thank you for your observation. Yes there will probably always be more than meets the eye . I guess time will tell.
And yes you are 100 % correct. I actually have said it the last 3 years .... the ARA are very quiet. They do not really need to do anything . We as Hunters press the self destruct button daily .
If anybody has a clear definition of ethics that would be acceptable to everyone I would like to see it .
Is it ethical to hunt with a rifle .... the animals do not have any ..... is it ethical to hunt over bait ? Is it ethical to hunt with a bow ? Is it ethical to shoot at a second animal if I wounded one already but still have a tag ? Is it ethical to question someone elses ethics ?
We are all very verbal about the actions and injustices of the ARA 's on social media. And what do we do ....... exactly the same . We as Hunters need to unite and give each one a space to do what he prefers.
Again I am not here to instigate lenghty debates. All I would like to see is that we treat each other with respect and agree to disagree.
There are a lot of people making statements without all the detail , and through social media these go viral in minutes.
I just hope everyone realises there can be consequences for actions.
If anyone do find the suggested change to the Constitution on definition Ethical Hunting in the new Constitution please let me know.
I once again would like to ask all of us as Hunters to Unite instead of trying to justify our own opinions ahead of others !
Happy Hunting !
Could not agree more
The OP stated a group lion farmers hijacked PHASA. I have no idea what that means, it hasn't been explained, nor has it been supported. But it certainly suggests that something dirty was happening.
Your contributions to this thread indicate to me that proposals voted on at the AGM this week were presented out in the open. If there are those who feel otherwise, please make it clear why it wasn't.
I do wonder if you have any statistics regarding the votes. Specifically do you know how many PHASA members with voting privileges there are? Of those issues voted on, do you have the number of for and against votes?
Phil yes . A little over 900 voting members. The redrafting of the Constitution was decided on by EXCO after last years AGM and was a direct result of a court case last year where some members were expelled. Their membership was reinstated after court action. These actions clearly showed that we needed to revise the Constitution.
This was an ongoing process during the year with constant calls for input from members.
There waa also a resolution in 2016 calling for discusssion to try and find a solution if any for the CBL issue. The resolution passed in 2017 was a direct result of the discussions this year as well as the workshops on this at the AGM. We had a total of 225 members that voted out of a possible 900.
We realised the importance of trying to ensure everyone casts his vote. We therefor created an APP which gave each member with voting power the right to vote . Unfortunately as you can see the turnout was fairly low.
The Constitution passed with a 80/20 vote. The resolution passed with a 65/35 vote.
Unfortunately some individuals .... some members and some non members chose to embark on a mission to discredit Phasa.
Separate names with a comma.