Optics Advice From Experienced Elephant Hunters or Professional Hunters

[neckdeep]

How does the mount look, Could you take a caliper's and measure how thick it is? How much will it raise your optic?

 

[Scott CWO]

How does the mount look, Could you take a caliper's and measure how thick it is? How much will it raise your optic?

Skiing now but will do it when I get back. Looked pretty low and I don’t think any higher than ring bases.

 

[neckdeep]

@Scott CWO Any progress on this?

 

[Scott CWO]

 

[Scott CWO]

The QD base is only 1cm or 10mm thick or .394”.

 

[Scott CWO]

How is this project going @Scott CWO

Did you receive the mount from Wayne? How does it compare?

I’m having a bit of an issue. I ran out of elevation adjustment on the Leica and the rifle shoots 1.75” low at 50 yards. The bridge must be on a much lower plane than the bore. Anybody have any ideas?

 

[IvW]

Aimpoint

 

[lwaters]

1 bought a kahlefor my Ruger 450/400. Thought it would be faster for close range.

 

[neckdeep]

I have not purchased a mount yet, Wayne would have to fit the Leica to his design. Other than the elevation how do you like the system otherwise? Wayne's detachable for the RMR is .320, solid is .190, the Leica must be much more compact

 

[BourbonTrail]

Did you receive the mount from Wayne? How does it compare?

I’m having a bit of an issue. I ran out of elevation adjustment on the Leica and the rifle shoots 1.75” low at 50 yards. The bridge must be on a much lower plane than the bore. Anybody have any ideas?

Sounds like something is out of square. Probably a process of elimination is best.

1. Is the ammo any different than normal or are you flinching (have to ask).
2. Could it be debris/oil. Disconnect everything and confirm all surfaces are clean and free from burrs. Reattach.
3. Is the mount square. Tricky to prove without another RMR, but definitely worth checking. Try taking calipers to each end to check thickness (may not rest on bottom flat but the chamfers, hence why tricky)
4. Is the gun bridge square. Might take it to a gunsmith or a friend who has a mill and have them get a levelness read out.
5. Maybe RMR is no good, try another to confirm.

I have used aluminum foil as a temporary shim for scopes with good success. May work to shim the rear of your RMR to gain some elevation to get on target.

 

[Scott CWO]

Sounds like something is out of square. Probably a process of elimination is best.

1. Is the ammo any different than normal or are you flinching (have to ask).
2. Could it be debris/oil. Disconnect everything and confirm all surfaces are clean and free from burrs. Reattach.
3. Is the mount square. Tricky to prove without another RMR, but definitely worth checking. Try taking calipers to each end to check thickness (may not rest on bottom flat but the chamfers, hence why tricky)
4. Is the gun bridge square. Might take it to a gunsmith or a friend who has a mill and have them get a levelness read out.
5. Maybe RMR is no good, try another to confirm.

I have used aluminum foil as a temporary shim for scopes with good success. May work to shim the rear of your RMR to gain some elevation to get on target.

1. I bore-sighted a new scope and the Leica Tempus RMR. Had to move elevation up on both the scope and the RMR to achieve bore-sighting. First shots after bore-sighting required more elevation until I ran out of adjustment on the RMR. On the scope, I did not run out of adjustment. Shooting two different bullets - Barnes 500gr TSX factory Federal Premium and Woodleigh 500gr Hydro Solids factory Federal Premium. Both shooting roughly the same at 50 yards. It’s not the ammo. No flinch.

2. Everything is meticulously clean.

3. All square.

4. It’s a CZ so since both the scope and RMR had to be moved up in elevation, I’m guessing the bridge is not square or perfectly aligned with either the line of bore or line of sight. Not an issue for the scope but must be for the RMR?

5. Since both the scope and RMR had to be adjusted up, I think the RMR is fine but just doesn’t have enough adjustment range for my particular situation?

With the integral bridge on the CZ, shimming isn’t an option between the bridge and QD mount but might be an option between the mount and the RMR.

Shooting again Monday afternoon but not expecting any change. Curious to see where it shoots at 100 yards.

I think I will send Wayne an email at AHR to see what he thinks.

 

[One Day...]

Hello Scott;

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) The issue could come from the barrel being misaligned with the action...

There are a number of reports of CZ 550 shooting out of scope adjustment range. While some of these reports come from sources that may not be entirely reliable, others come from folks, like you, who know exactly what they are doing. Additionally, since you already had two different scopes sighted on this rifle, a Leupold VXR 2-7x33 and a Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20, and now you have a third one, you likely know what you are doing, and I accept the premise that the Leica red dot is not be perfectly aligned with the barrel.​

​

Note that I said "the Leica Red dot is not perfectly aligned with the barrel," not "the action is not perfectly aligned with the barrel."​

​

In truth, it is a very rare production rifle indeed whose barrel and action are perfectly aligned. This is one of the reasons why many gunsmith like to "true" the barrel and the action threads, and the face of the action.​

​

In further truth, it is likely that there are out there many more rifles than we realize, from many makers, whose barrel and action are not entirely aligned, but because many wear modern scopes that offer a large adjustment range, the scopes do not run out of adjustment.​

​

Based on your own experience, I observe that the Leupold VXR 2-7x33 you installed at one time only has 75 MOA of maximum adjustment. This is less than a lot of other scopes. For example, the Zeiss V4 series have 90 MOA, the Leica Magnus and the Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20 have 110 MOA, etc. Therefore, the fact that you could sight the VXR 2-7x33 with a comparatively reduced adjustment range tells me that if your barrel is misaligned with your action - which it likely is because all productions rifle's are, more or less - then it is not dramatically so.​

​

In summary, as far as the RIFLE diagnostic goes, your CZ barrel is likely NOT uncommonly misaligned with the action. Maybe a bit, like with any production rifle from any manufacturer, but likely not drastically so, otherwise, you could not have sighted the Leupold.​

2) The issue could come from an optic with limited adjustment...

The Leica Tempus is specified to have an adjustment range of 100 MOA and clicks of 1.1 MOA each. It should therefore have an adjustment range of 90 clicks.​

​

The Leica Tempus also has a locking mechanism that locks the adjustment in place. I do not know for sure, but it is possible that one may need to unscrew the locking screw several turns in order to allow the FULL range of adjustment.​

​

After loosening completely the adjustment locking screw, turn the adjustment screw down until you reach the bottom of the adjustment range while counting the clicks. If you were maxed out trying to bring your shots up, you should count 90 clicks down.​

​

--- If you count less than 90 clicks down, it is possible that the locking screw was not loose enough to allow you to go up to the full range.​

Note: you are not far off, it looks like you are only short 3 clicks (3.3 MOA) to bring your group up 1.75" @ 50 yards = 3.5" @ 100 yards = 3.5 MOA​

​

--- If you count 90 clicks, you were at the maximum of the range...​

​

3) If both rifle and red dot are fine, the mount is likely the guilty party...

Because you were able to sight a Leupold that has 75 MOA of maximum adjustment, you should be able to sight a Leica Tempus red dot that has 100 MOA of maximum adjustment.​

​

If you were using the full range of adjustment on the Leica red dot without its locking mechanism obstructing your adjustment (Item 2), then two possibilities exist:​

​

--- The rifle action itself is bent, or machined defectively, and the rear and front bridges are not in the same plane. This is extremely unlikely, and I only mention it to be thorough. You can eliminate this hypothesis easily by putting a flat piece of steel across both bridges (a simple steel ruler standing on edge works fine). It should rest evenly on both bridges' flat tops and show no gap at the rear of the rear bridge flat top, or at the front of the front bridge flat top. Just check to be sure, but, as stated, it is unlikely that there is an issue there...​

​

--- If the rifle's action is fine, the issue then is with​

1 - the Rusan mount itself; or​

2 - the way the Rusan mount engages the bridge dovetail; or​

3 - the way the red dot is attached to the mount.​

​

Because the two mounting holes in the Leica (same footprint as the Docter) are almost central, the Leica could be tilting nose up as a result of:​

--- the surface of the Rusan mount being uneven (?)​

--- the Leica bottom surface being uneven due to faulty assembly of the bottom plate (?)​

​

​

--- the Leica body itself flexing due to too much torque on the mounting screws (?)​

--- etc.​

​

Solutions...

For this type of mechanical issues, I tend to believe in the Occam's razor approach: the simpler explanations are more likely to be correct. In this case anything is possible but what bugs me is that we know something critical: the rifle was sighted with an optic that only has 75 MOA of adjustment. It should, therefore, be easily sighted with an optic that has 100 MOA...

First, before anything else I would verify that the full 100 MOA of maximum adjustment were used on the Leica.

Second, the Rusan mount could be defective (bad casting or machining - it happens...) but this is relatively uncommon, and I would look at how its fits in the CZ dovetail and how the Leica fits on it.

A temporary solution could be to stick a small piece of adhesive aluminum foil HVAC tape under the rear of the Leica to tilt it downward on the base and see if this resolves the issue.

A more permanent solution could be to use a Trijicon RMR. These have 150 MOA of maximum adjustment (note: RMR is a registered trademark of Trijicon, not a generic term, the generic term is "red dot"). Since it seems you are only missing 3 to 4 MOA of adjustment, 50 more MOA (25 up and 25 down) should do the trick.

Sorry for a long post, but I am just trying to help

 

[BourbonTrail]

What he said.

Good luck Scott, you’ll get it squared away

 

[Scott CWO]

Hello Scott;

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) The issue could come from the barrel being misaligned with the action...

There are a number of reports of CZ 550 shooting out of scope adjustment range. While some of these reports come from sources that may not be entirely reliable, others come from folks, like you, who know exactly what they are doing. Additionally, since you already had two different scopes sighted on this rifle, a Leupold VXR 2-7x33 and a Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20, and now you have a third one, you likely know what you are doing, and I accept the premise that the Leica red dot is not be perfectly aligned with the barrel.​

​

Note that I said "the Leica Red dot is not perfectly aligned with the barrel," not "the action is not perfectly aligned with the barrel."​

​

In truth, it is a very rare production rifle indeed whose barrel and action are perfectly aligned. This is one of the reasons why many gunsmith like to "true" the barrel and the action threads, and the face of the action.​

​

In further truth, it is likely that there are out there many more rifles than we realize, from many makers, whose barrel and action are not entirely aligned, but because many wear modern scopes that offer a large adjustment range, the scopes do not run out of adjustment.​

​

Based on your own experience, I observe that the Leupold VXR 2-7x33 you installed at one time only has 75 MOA of maximum adjustment. This is less than a lot of other scopes. For example, the Zeiss V4 series have 90 MOA, the Leica Magnus and the Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20 have 110 MOA, etc. Therefore, the fact that you could sight the VXR 2-7x33 with a comparatively reduced adjustment range tells me that if your barrel is misaligned with your action - which it likely is because all productions rifle's are, more or less - then it is not dramatically so.​

​

In summary, as far as the RIFLE diagnostic goes, your CZ barrel is likely NOT uncommonly misaligned with the action. Maybe a bit, like with any production rifle from any manufacturer, but likely not drastically so, otherwise, you could not have sighted the Leupold.​

2) The issue could come from an optic with limited adjustment...

The Leica Tempus is specified to have an adjustment range of 100 MOA and clicks of 1.1 MOA each. It should therefore have an adjustment range of 90 clicks.​

​

The Leica Tempus also has a locking mechanism that locks the adjustment in place. I do not know for sure, but it is possible that one may need to unscrew the locking screw several turns in order to allow the FULL range of adjustment.​

​

After loosening completely the adjustment locking screw, turn the adjustment screw down until you reach the bottom of the adjustment range while counting the clicks. If you were maxed out trying to bring your shots up, you should count 90 clicks down.​

​

--- If you count less than 90 clicks down, it is possible that the locking screw was not loose enough to allow you to go up to the full range.​

Note: you are not far off, it looks like you are only short 3 clicks (3.3 MOA) to bring your group up 1.75" @ 50 yards = 3.5" @ 100 yards = 3.5 MOA​

​

--- If you count 90 clicks, you were at the maximum of the range...​

​

3) If both rifle and red dot are fine, the mount is likely the guilty party...

Because you were able to sight a Leupold that has 75 MOA of maximum adjustment, you should be able to sight a Leica Tempus red dot that has 100 MOA of maximum adjustment.​

​

If you were using the full range of adjustment on the Leica red dot without its locking mechanism obstructing your adjustment (Item 2), then two possibilities exist:​

​

--- The rifle action itself is bent, or machined defectively, and the rear and front bridges are not in the same plane. This is extremely unlikely, and I only mention it to be thorough. You can eliminate this hypothesis easily by putting a flat piece of steel across both bridges (a simple steel ruler standing on edge works fine). It should rest evenly on both bridges' flat tops and show no gap at the rear of the rear bridge flat top, or at the front of the front bridge flat top. Just check to be sure, but, as stated, it is unlikely that there is an issue there...​

​

--- If the rifle's action is fine, the issue then is with​

1 - the Rusan mount itself; or​

2 - the way the Rusan mount engages the bridge dovetail; or​

3 - the way the red dot is attached to the mount.​

​

View attachment 398980​

Because the two mounting holes in the Leica (same footprint as the Docter) are almost central, the Leica could be tilting nose up as a result of:​

--- the surface of the Rusan mount being uneven (?)​

--- the Leica bottom surface being uneven due to faulty assembly of the bottom plate (?)​

​

View attachment 398982​

​

--- the Leica body itself flexing due to too much torque on the mounting screws (?)​

--- etc.​

​

Solutions...

For this type of mechanical issues, I tend to believe in the Occam's razor approach: the simpler explanations are more likely to be correct. In this case anything is possible but what bugs me is that we know something critical: the rifle was sighted with an optic that only has 75 MOA of adjustment. It should, therefore, be easily sighted with an optic that has 100 MOA...

First, before anything else I would verify that the full 100 MOA of maximum adjustment were used on the Leica.

Second, the Rusan mount could be defective (bad casting or machining - it happens...) but this is relatively uncommon, and I would look at how its fits in the CZ dovetail and how the Leica fits on it.

A temporary solution could be to stick a small piece of adhesive aluminum foil HVAC tape under the rear of the Leica to tilt it downward on the base and see if this resolves the issue.

A more permanent solution could be to use a Trijicon RMR. These have 150 MOA of maximum adjustment (note: RMR is a registered trademark of Trijicon, not a generic term, the generic term is "red dot"). Since it seems you are only missing 3 to 4 MOA of adjustment, 50 more MOA (25 up and 25 down) should do the trick.

Sorry for a long post, but I am just trying to help

Hi Pascal and thanks for the help.

The new scope I installed and sighted-in is the 2-7 x 33 and as mentioned, I did not run out of adjustment.

The Tempus owner's manual mentions loosening the locking adjustment screw before moving the sights but curiously, it does not mention to tighten the screw back up when finished with adjustments? Perhaps this is implied but I hate assuming things and usually owner's manuals are very descriptive.

Also, on a new Tempus, there is a silicone plug over the top of the adjustment locking screw. At first, I did not remove this plug or loosen the underlying locking screw because the adjustment port screws for up/down and left/right both freely turn already. This morning, I turned the up/down adjustment screw to check its travel of clicks. Curiously, it turns for 114 clicks, not 90 as you mention. This was all done without removing the silicone plug and loosening the locking screw.

As I write this paragraph, I just finished removing the silicone plug that is over the top of the locking screw. What I found is that I am unable to turn the locking screw with the supplied hex tool. It has a screw that is smaller than the 1.5 hex tool provided for adjusting the sights! I retrieved my set of hex tools from my workbench and the smallest I have in my set is a 1.0. It fit. I loosened the locking screw several turns and retested the number of clicks - still 114. I then reset the adjustment to the bottom, where it was after attempting to sight-in and re-tightened the supposed "locking" screw. Since Leica does not supply a 1.0 hex tool and the port had a silicone plug over it, I am guessing that they changed the design but did NOT change the owner's manual. This is strange. I plan to email them to get their response.

So now, I guess I am limited to trying a folded piece of foil between the Rusan QD mount and the Tempus. I am not happy with this "fix" but will try it out this afternoon at the range.

 

[One Day...]

I realize that the issue turned out to be barrel fouling and was resolved (https://www.africahunting.com/threads/dont-be-a-dummy-like-me.63038/)
but for for future reference, here is what the Leica User's Manual that came with mine says:

I am not overly surprised that there are more clicks (114) in your Tempus than the specs (90) call for. This is quite common with many optics manufacturers. They spec the minimum number the various internal assembly tolerances will guaranty, and whatever comes in addition to that is bonus

Please note that Leica is fairly adamant that what they call the "attachment screw" - which I erroneously called the locking screw - must be loosened before adjustment, and tightened after adjustment. I am not overly surprised either that it apparently comes off the box not tightened because it is logical to expect that the shooter will start by sighting the red dot. In my case, I sent the Tempus to Krieghoff for them to install and sight - I did not have a dovetail plate on my rifle - so I cannot say whether mine came from the factory with screw #6 tight or loose...

I wish Leica would define "gently tighten" in term of inch/lbs...

Also, Scott, I just checked the Allen key that came with mine, it IS a 1.5 mm key and it fits in the "attachment screw" #6. Could it be that you attempted to use the rear "housing screw" that Leica specifically advise not to "tamper" with? This one may be 1 mm (?), I do not know, I did not "tamper" with it, but what I know for sure is that on mine, the "attachment screw" #6 is1.5 mm Allen, and therefore I highly suspect that it is on yours too

I would suggest you check all this because the last thing we want is a shift POI on a DG stopper rifle

 

[Scott CWO]

I realize that the issue turned out to be barrel fouling and was resolved (https://www.africahunting.com/threads/dont-be-a-dummy-like-me.63038/)
but for for future reference, here is what the Leica User's Manual that came with mine says:

View attachment 400131

View attachment 400132

I am not overly surprised that there are more clicks (114) in your Tempus than the specs (90) call for. This is quite common with many optics manufacturers. They spec the minimum number the various internal assembly tolerances will guaranty, and whatever comes in addition to that is bonus

Please note that Leica is fairly adamant that what they call the "attachment screw" - which I erroneously called the locking screw - must be loosened before adjustment, and tightened after adjustment. I am not overly surprised either that it apparently comes off the box not tightened because it is logical to expect that the shooter will start by sighting the red dot. In my case, I sent the Tempus to Krieghoff for them to install and sight - I did not have a dovetail plate on my rifle - so I cannot say whether mine came from the factory with screw #6 tight or loose...

I wish Leica would define "gently tighten" in term of inch/lbs...

View attachment 400133

Also, Scott, I just checked the Allen key that came with mine, it IS a 1.5 mm key and it fits in the "attachment screw" #6. Could it be that you attempted to use the rear "housing screw" that Leica specifically advise not to "tamper" with? This one may be 1 mm (?), I do not know, I did not "tamper" with it, but what I know for sure is that on mine, the "attachment screw" #6 is1.5 mm Allen, and therefore I highly suspect that it is on yours too

View attachment 400134

I would suggest you check all this because the last thing we want is a shift POI on a DG stopper rifle

Pascal,
It was not the barrel with this issue. The solids shot fine.

Leica must have changed the design. Mine is very new - just got it. The attachments screw was covered with silicone and it's definitely one size smaller than the provided hex tool. The clicks on the adjustments are now 114, not 90. They changed things. My owner's manual is different.

I had to do the foil because it was shooting low with no other solution. It's now 2" high and 2" right of the bull at 50 yards. I will move it lower and left with the solids after I get back from bear camp.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Below is a picture of my 2MOA Tempus. The hole on the right is covered with silicone. The locking screw for the adjustment is on the left and the factory supplied hex key fits it (same key is used for the actual adjustment). I bought mine new several weeks ago but do not know when it was manufactured. It seems illogical that Leica would cover a screw with silicone if the user was meant to turn it for sighting in.

 

[Scott CWO]

Below is a picture of my 2MOA Tempus. The hole on the right is covered with silicone. The locking screw for the adjustment is on the left and the factory supplied hex key fits it (same key is used for the actual adjustment). I bought mine new several weeks ago but do not know when it was manufactured. It seems illogical that Leica would cover a screw with silicone if the user was meant to turn it for sighting in.
View attachment 400219

Yes, you have the older model. Mine doesn’t have the lock.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Yes, you have the older model. Mine doesn’t have the lock.

This is quite interesting, would you mind posting the picture of the back of it for comparison?

 

[One Day...]

Mine is exactly like Opposite Pole's.

It was bought 2 1/2 months ago:

I did not realize Leica released a different model, either before or after. Can you please post a pic of yours Scott.

By the way, mine did a world of good to my double rifle shooting. I could barely see the front sight anymore, and adding the Leica red dot really shrunk the size of the groups.

For memory, the reason I selected the Leica Tempus is because it has a side tray that allows to change the battery without dismounting the sight like one has to do with the Docter and the Trijicon. This is really convenient as there is no need to re-sight after changing the battery...

For memory too, I selected the 3.5 MOA dot because I do not want to have to scrutinize the sight to find the red dot in a defensive fast shooting situation, and the 3.5 MOA dot size clearly allows precise shooting: each barrel groups within 1" at 50 yards standing off the sticks (note: the outmost right shot of the left barrel with the RN SN was a called flier).

Worth noting, the Woodleigh 500 gr Weldcore RN SN (Round Nose, Soft Nose) do not shoot "exactly" to the same point of impact as the Woodleigh 500 gr FMJ (Full Metal Jacket), but close enough for any hunting situation that I can think of