Don't be a dummy like me...

[Scott CWO]

I have been waiting for decent weather to get to the rifle range before I leave for Alaska on May 7th and Botswana on June 4th. Finally got a couple calm days without wind, rain and snow so I went to the range a few days ago to shoot the CZ550 .375 H&H with AHR upgrades that I bought from @BeeMaa last year for a brown bear camp gun and to shoot my .458 Lott that I use for a backup gun and will use in Botswana for ele.

I put a new Luepold VX-6HD CDS-ZL2 2-12 x 42mm on Talley QD mounts on the CZ .375 and it shot great - about 1 MOA. Bore-sighted it and then had it dialed in after six rounds of Barnes 270gr! So far so good!

I also put a new scope on the .458 Lott. It's a Luepold VX-R 2-7 x 33mm with red dot. With the old Luepold VX-3 1.5-5 x 20mm that I usually use, the .458 Lott has been a real tack driver - sometimes less than 1 MOA. Started with a clean barrel. Everything went well at 50 yards with my Barnes 500gr TSX for a bear load. Before I jumped out to 100 yards, I decided to try some 500gr Woodleigh hydro solids for the ele. They shot a bit lower. No worries, I figured I would re-sight the rifle after bear season so I didn't adjust the scope. Then I mounted the Leica Tempus red dot sight to shoot a solids with it at 50 yards. I adjusted the dot. No worries. So far so good.

I then jumped out to 100 yards and put the VX-R back on the Lott and switched back to the Barnes TSX bear load after running a couple dry patches. Whoa! Groups were not good! Couldn't seem to get the scope adjusted correctly - shots jumping left, then right! Checked all the mounts - no problems there. Had to go back to 50 yards. Burned up all kinds of expensive ammo and was getting disgusted! Still not good at 50 yards. Ran out of ammo. Went home without confidence in the rifle for the first time ever. Called one of my guides who builds rifles and shoots long-range. He knew right away what the problem was but I didn't.

He said the solids likely fouled the barrel with a different metal alloy that the Barnes did not like when I switched back. I felt pretty stupid. Shouldn't have been switching ammo back and forth like that! I got out my cleaning supplies and really scrubbed the barrel and cleaned it really good. Went back to the range yesterday with two more boxes of Barnes ammo and a clean barrel. Viola! Grouping good again starting with the second shot! Only had to shoot six rounds with the last three shooting 1" group at 100 yards. Now I feel better! I had never shot solids before and did't think much about mixing them in. A totally different copper alloy made a big difference. I guess I will clean the rifle after bear season and go back to solids then. No more mixing and matching them. Have any of you guys ever ran into this issue? I usually find a load that works and stick with it and I never have shot solids or another bullet while sighting-in my primary load.

 

[BeeMaa]

Don't be so hard on yourself. No one knows anything until they do (I think Yogi Berra said that).

That being said, I'd not heard of this before. I'm almost positive that @Red Leg used .375 caliber 300 grain Barnes TSX and 300 grain Woodleigh Hydros in the same rifle on the same safari with good results. It's certainly possible that this problem is isolated to your rifle, but with your guide friend knowing what the problem was, I doubt it. Probably a case by case basis with rifles and their likes/dislikes. Glad you got it sorted out now.

This does interest me because I'm doing load development for my 375H&H using Woodleigh Hydros with another member doing the reloading for me. Still gathering load data at the moment, but I'll report back on my findings.

Also glad to hear the CZ550 is doing well.

 

[krish]

Well barns claim their tsx (coper) and their brass aloy solids group the same.
So which theory is right?
May be the barrel needed cleaning due to excessive fouling by wooleigh bullets.
May be
Krish

 

[Opposite Pole]

I’ve heard numerous reports that you should approach Barnes bullets with a clean barrel or else you might have accuracy issues. In my 375 I shot a mixture of Barnes TSX and TBBC with no issues, but that’s just one barrel.

 

[WAB]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I for one had never heard of this. I have mixed Woodleigh hydros with Swift A-Frame and TBBC with no adverse effects. It’s a good lookout on the Barnes bullets.

 

[Berettaco]

My brother had this problem in his 300 - was shooting corelokt and partition then switched to TTSX. Groups opened up to 12” or so at 100. I took the rifle and had to see for myself, because what does your brother know.... has to be his inferior shooting skills... I had the same results, ended up scrubbing the barrel, removing all the copper and then it was good. I like the Barnes bullets but I give special attention to the cleaning to avoid fouling.
a lesson I learned as well.
Beemaa is correct - you don’t know until you do

 

[Wheels]

I have practiced with hydro and tsx in a cz. 375 not 458 and not noticed an issue. Took the same rifle on a hunt, used hydro then started using tsx and made shots out to 280 with no problems.

i would never have known that this could be an issue if you hadn’t mentioned the possibility.

 

[ZG47]

David Tubb has mentioned that you can have accuracy issues in target shooting when using bullets with a different jacket material. A good barrel cleaning is obviously called for when changing bullet brands in that scenario just as when you change .22lr target ammo types.
I have heard of issues with homogenous brass bullets causing fouling issues in hunting rifles. It essentially depends upon the fouling characteristics of the individual barrel. Only way to know if your hunting rifle barrel is prone to fouling problems when using homogeneous brass or copper bullets is to shoot and see.

 

[AZDAVE]

Have seen the issue of different alloys in a couple bench rest/ long range rifles and one double that didn't like different alloys. So don't be hard on your self as it isn't a common problem in hunting rifles. Also every rifle is different.Some will shoot anything you feed it well and others are VERY picky.

 

[Mike Van Horn]

One of my .257 Weatherby barrels is like that. 100 TTSX for hunting. 115 Berger for practice and shooting steel at long range. I have to completely clean the barrel when switching.
Another .257 Weatherby l can switch from 100 TTSX to 120 Northfork with no problems

 

[gillettehunter]

I have also seen this problem. Not always going to happen, but often enough a hunter should be aware of the potential issue. Different barrels act differently. Glad you got it sorted out. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.
Bruce

 

[Scott CWO]

Well barns claim their tsx (coper) and their brass aloy solids group the same.
So which theory is right?
May be the barrel needed cleaning due to excessive fouling by wooleigh bullets.
May be
Krish

Both loads are factory Federal that I was using. Maybe I will try the Barnes brass alloy solids next time. Thanks for the info.

 

[Scott CWO]

Thanks for all the feedback. Glad I figured it out. I guess it makes sense when you think about it. Two different metal compositions could interfere with each other.

 

[Graham Hunter]

I have had several guns in my shop with this issue. After a proper barrel cleaning the accuracy came back. I always advise my customers to clean their barrel before switching to Barnes and clean again before switching back.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have been waiting for decent weather to get to the rifle range before I leave for Alaska on May 7th and Botswana on June 4th. Finally got a couple calm days without wind, rain and snow so I went to the range a few days ago to shoot the CZ550 .375 H&H with AHR upgrades that I bought from @BeeMaa last year for a brown bear camp gun and to shoot my .458 Lott that I use for a backup gun and will use in Botswana for ele.

I put a new Luepold VX-6HD CDS-ZL2 2-12 x 42mm on Talley QD mounts on the CZ .375 and it shot great - about 1 MOA. Bore-sighted it and then had it dialed in after six rounds of Barnes 270gr! So far so good!

I also put a new scope on the .458 Lott. It's a Luepold VX-R 2-7 x 33mm with red dot. With the old Luepold VX-3 1.5-5 x 20mm that I usually use, the .458 Lott has been a real tack driver - sometimes less than 1 MOA. Started with a clean barrel. Everything went well at 50 yards with my Barnes 500gr TSX for a bear load. Before I jumped out to 100 yards, I decided to try some 500gr Woodleigh hydro solids for the ele. They shot a bit lower. No worries, I figured I would re-sight the rifle after bear season so I didn't adjust the scope. Then I mounted the Leica Tempus red dot sight to shoot a solids with it at 50 yards. I adjusted the dot. No worries. So far so good.

I then jumped out to 100 yards and put the VX-R back on the Lott and switched back to the Barnes TSX bear load after running a couple dry patches. Whoa! Groups were not good! Couldn't seem to get the scope adjusted correctly - shots jumping left, then right! Checked all the mounts - no problems there. Had to go back to 50 yards. Burned up all kinds of expensive ammo and was getting disgusted! Still not good at 50 yards. Ran out of ammo. Went home without confidence in the rifle for the first time ever. Called one of my guides who builds rifles and shoots long-range. He knew right away what the problem was but I didn't.

He said the solids likely fouled the barrel with a different metal alloy that the Barnes did not like when I switched back. I felt pretty stupid. Shouldn't have been switching ammo back and forth like that! I got out my cleaning supplies and really scrubbed the barrel and cleaned it really good. Went back to the range yesterday with two more boxes of Barnes ammo and a clean barrel. Viola! Grouping good again starting with the second shot! Only had to shoot six rounds with the last three shooting 1" group at 100 yards. Now I feel better! I had never shot solids before and did't think much about mixing them in. A totally different copper alloy made a big difference. I guess I will clean the rifle after bear season and go back to solids then. No more mixing and matching them. Have any of you guys ever ran into this issue? I usually find a load that works and stick with it and I never have shot solids or another bullet while sighting-in my primary load.

I’ve never really mixed types like that. But if I’ve said it once I’ve said it many times, in my rifles Barnes want a clean barrel. They’ll shoot very accurately until they don’t. And when they start to fall off, they’re falling off a cliff. Clean the barrel thoroughly and they come right back. Pretty much what you’ve experienced now.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks for all the feedback. Glad I figured it out. I guess it makes sense when you think about it. Two different metal compositions could interfere with each other.

It isn’t necessarily two different metal compositions although I wouldn’t be surprised if that exacerbates the issue. For me it’s just been about the copper deposition from the Barnes and when it gets to a certain point, the accuracy drops off. So beware of this too and if it happens, just clean the barrel again.

 

[Graham Hunter]

Barnes does tend to foul a barrel.

 

[Divernhunter]

Barnes does not foul the barrel if you start with a clean barrel. I have a 7-08 with about 250 rounds of Barnes TTSX down the pipe and it is still a tack driver.
If I decide to use a regular bullet in it I will need to super clean it before shooting Barnes again. I also do the same thing when shooting Swift bullets but they do not seem to be effected as much. I shoot Barnes/Swift bullet in quite a number of cartridges and always clean before shooting Barnes after shooting another regular jacketed bullet.

How I super clean a barrel-- 1st Wipe-Out, 2nd follow with Sweets 7.62 or Barnes CR-10, 3rd Butches bore shine or Shooters Choice or Tetra-Gun or whatever but never #9. If I do not plan to shoot the rifle soon I do not oil the barrel.

 

[krish]

I normaly shoot at least fire 20 rounds in a seesion. I clean the gun fully well before it is put away. When I take it out again I give a quick cleaning to the barrel. No issues so far that way.
Krish

 

[spike.t]

Oh well at least I wont have that problem being a neanderthal and using ancient type bullets.......