Norma 404 jeffery cases

[K95]

Just a question for anyone who reloads for the 404 Jeffery. Here are two different brands of case that have been once fired and full length resized. Each had their volume measured and are both within 2 gr of water one 115 the other 117.
Same powder. Weight, primer, projectile, loaded and seated with the same dies. The Bertram case measured 2237 fps while the Norma measured 2276 fps. Bolt lift on the Bertram very easy with this mild load and the Norma sticky. I went up 4 more grs of Alliant 2000 pro powder to 82 grs with smooth bolt and normal primer and case measurements while I didn't dare venture any further with the Norma. Norma cases are my go to for all my calibers and have been for the past 45 yrs reloading. I just can't explain it , any theories on what's going on would be appreciated.

 

[farmer_john]

How accurate is your scale? If its in 10ths grain one could just be ones on .10 end and ones more on the .19 end of the measurement.

Id suggest reloading a batch of each same way see what the spread is for each brand and then compare between the two

 

[K95]

2/10 of a gr is nothing when we're talking 117 grs volume and loading up a batch, the max spread is14 fps . I have had enough blown primers out of new tight brass to last me a lifetime and that's with a reduced normal of 5 grs.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Norma brass is thicker than the Bertram.

 

[Fryeguy]

I like and use Norma brass in lots of calibers. I find it softer though and it doesn’t hold up as well with high pressure loads or upper end loads. That being said I have not owned a 404 yet, so I do not have exact experience in your situation. I have had normal cases in a 7prc only last 2 firings and afterwards were extremely sticky to open bolt. Those loads were several grains under max. Yes I know a PRC is a way different puppy. But if it’s soft cases it’ll be sticky quicker regardless

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Curiously, protruding "blown primers" indicates underpowered load. Or perhaps you mean flattened primers (which is what you're showing in the image)? Those velocities are well below what many are loading and if memory serves me correctly, Hornady is loading their factory 404 ammo well above 2300 fps. So it would not seem you are pushing the envelope. But I guess that depends on the burn rate and I'm not familiar with Accurate 2000. How do the firing ports in primer pockets compare? Does the Norma case have a bigger hole? This is certainly a strange phenomenon.

I load 80 gr Accurate 4350 for 400 gr Barnes. No chrono but I'm guessing 2200 fps. No flattened primers in either Hornady or RMS brass.

 

[K95]

Norma brass is thicker than the Bertram.

Yes it is but the case capacity is very similar. I remember working with the 7mm Rem mag and Norma cases held up to 11 grs more powder than some other brands.

 

[Jefferry404]

conundrum!
data from a previous thread I posted:
"
Since 404J is the queen, thought folks might like some more info.
left to right
Norma, Hornady (which i loaded), Bertram.

Average neck wall thickness (4 equal distance locations) using a tube micrometer:
13.7/1000”, 12/1000”, 11/1000”
Case weight:
296.7gn, 287.7gn, 271.4gn
Case H2O capacity:
113.7gn, 115.7gn, 115.0gn
Case length:
2.868”, 2.867”, 2.869”

As has been noted elsewhere, Bertram is light and thin brass but was the only game in town for an awhile. Hats off to our friends at Raven Rocks Precision for helping keep the grand cartridge alive.
"

 

[farmer_john]

Just curious and slightly off topic anyone working on loads with h4350?

 

[Jefferry404]

as mentioned above, I loaded Hornady brass, 400gn dgx using h4350, mild load at 2095fps in 23.6" barrel and load density of 92.8%.
Will be trying a hotter load this summer for 2301fps at load density of 103.7%

 

[uplander01]

Much different case head cuts from the different brands,...I've noticed this before and that will play into the weight of the case. I wish someone made a tool to measure the thickness of the case from the inside at the bottom by the case head all the way along the inside of the body, that would tell a big story, and be an easy way to see if brass flow over multiple firings was creating an environment for case head separation.

Of all the calibers I have handloaded for in the last 30 years the one that has created the most questions at the bench for me is the 404 Jeffery. Aside from the fact that there apparently has been 2 caliber drawing specs for chamber measurements from history, my experience has been that not all dies are created equal either. Also noticed that it was really important to use the same brand shell holder as the sizing die. Obviously talking about tiny measurement differences but they seem to matter on this large beltless magnum.

My current policy with Bertram is 2-3 firings with brass then toss them...they definitely don't hold up as well as Norma or Hornady IMO.

 

[Jefferry404]

was thinking lack of case grip for the Norma (maybe residue lube? or slightly undersized for the chamber) allowing case to pressure against the bolt face?
With the slow case taper of the Jeffery, the bolt thrust is reduced by 42% due to the friction. If the brass is less grippy, either polish or lube, then...

 

[RootballExpress]

I like and use Norma brass in lots of calibers. I find it softer though and it doesn’t hold up as well with high pressure loads or upper end loads. That being said I have not owned a 404 yet, so I do not have exact experience in your situation. I have had normal cases in a 7prc only last 2 firings and afterwards were extremely sticky to open bolt. Those loads were several grains under max. Yes I know a PRC is a way different puppy. But if it’s soft cases it’ll be sticky quicker regardless

I 100% agree with you on this. Norma brass does very well with normal pressure loads for caliber and normal bullet weights. My example I’m pulling goes back to using 300-450 grain bullet weights in my 416 Rem Mag using Norma brass. For what Norma brass is, it’s highly dependable and works great. I’m on my 5th reload with the same 60 pieces and have used 400 grain Safari Solids each time. No neck cracks, weakened walls, feeds and extracts perfect. No crazy velocities either. Sticking to (and around) 2400 fps.