new cartridge

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Already looking into a ruger Predator model but will need to see d barrel out to be devoted to 358 win. Great minds think alike Bob.

@MS 9x56
What about a Ruger American in 308 and a JES revote on the barrel, or even the same in the savage.
Bob.
Bob

 

[Glenn Slaven]

I am lacking a good .270 rifle and have an extra Remington SA sitting around. I will prob get it made up in 6.8 Western bc it will do anything a .270 WCF can do, but with heavier bullets. I live heavy for caliber bullets. With the fat case and modern powders, capacity really isn’t an issue. After all, I’m getting almost 8mm RM velocities out of a .325 WSM.
If I already had a .270 WCF or a .270 WSM, I would pass, but since I don’t, why limit myself to lighter bullets?
I’ve heard people talk about feeding problems in short, fat cartridges , but out of a .300 WSM and a .325 WSM I have not had one feed problem. Hell, I was running the .325 out of my Blaser insert for .458 Lott before I got the correct insert. (In all fairness I did only have one round in the mag though)

 

[Rocco490]

Thanks for the thread interesting design. Not a fan of ultra long range hunting. That said its a neat cartridge, use it for a dual purpose long range target cartridge that could also be used for hunting a lot of north america's game with more bullet diameter and weight than the current long range 6mm and 6.5's have to offer. I'll stick with the 270 winchester it's a classic and will do everything I want for a sub 30 caliber round.

 

[rookhawk]

The problem with new-fangled cartridges is always three fold.

1.) They are sold in lower quality new guns.

2.) Most never catch on, so you have some relic in just a few short years.

3.) They were built to solve a problem that didn’t exist in the first place or had a great solution already.


Modern history lesson?

.17 caliber guns from 17ppc to 17hmr to 17mach2 and a newer 17winchester. The only one that became common was 17hmr.

WSMs and WSSMs? I lost track honestly. Almost all of them are dead in only a decade, I can‘t remember which one slightly caught on amongst the herd.

6.5s. We already had 6.5x55 and 6.5 mannlicher. They had to make the 6.5 grendel. Then everyone had to have the 6.5x284 as the IT gun about 12 years ago. Now its the 6.5 creedmore. There were piles others too. 264 win? The list is long. In a hundred years, the 6.5x55 and 6.5MS will still exist, and probably the Creedmore.

6mms? 244 remington? 50 others that have come and gone, all copying the 243win that is the survivor.

7x57, 284, 7x61, 7x64, 280, 280ai, 7mm Rem, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, a new 280AI that isn‘t compatible with the old 280AI, etc. (7x57, 7x64, and 7mm Rem will survive...all the others are hiccups in the annals of history in 20 years)

 

[tedthorn]

winchester and browning have brought out a new cartridge called the 6.8 western, and both will produce rifles for same.
it is 277 cal and aimed at heavy bullets.
the case is the same as the 270 wsm except for being 0.080 shorter.
some thought has obviously gone into this, as just putting heavy bullets (175gn?) in the wsm would doom it to failure due to slower twist barrels in the older cartridge rifles.
the older longer case cannot be fired in the newer chambers.
just another gimmic to separate fools from their money.
bruce.

It is never foolish to shoot high bc bullets out of fast twist barrels

 

[rdog]

Wont be as good as the 243 win!!!!!!

 

[Rell]

Gentlemen,

Let the “fools” be separated from their money and … enjoy it. That’s kind of the point to most of this right?

I eat a lot of game I kill and it’s important to me, but I don’t truly need it. Shooting and hunting is mostly about enjoying ourselves.

Yes self defensive is a real need but I’ll leave that alone for this discussion.

I’ve bought, loaded for, tinkered with, had built, had semi customized, sold and traded a load of firearms. Mostly for fun.

I have a REM model 7 in 300 RSAUM, my dad and I bought a pair of them together the year they came out we had puddles of fun with them. Mine sits in gun safe In Quebec with a S&B 3-12x50 mounted on it in a HS Precession stock, I have 300 loaded rounds and 500 new brass (yes 500). It shoots a white tail or black bear every few years and the odd Wolf that wanders by the timber farm. It was stupid when I bought it and dead now but … it was fun and kills what ever gets in front of it. And I had a lot of good time with my dad with it. Maybe the “best” gun I ever owned from that point of view!

I have a Sako 85 in 338 Federal, man I just really really like that round. But a 308 with a mono bullet will kill everything it kills. It’s dead but I had a lot fun with it. I put NECG express sights on it, barrel band sling swivel and MPI stock. Mounted an old 1.5-6x42 S&B on it. I have 400 rounds of 200gr factory ammo and 200 rounds of hand loads with 185gr Barnes Xs. It sits in my best friends safe in Alberta and goes out after moose, elk and deer in the foothills every 2 or 3 years. Not having to travel with a gun is a bonus and it’s not worth much to sell so …

I think it’s ok to slightly dislike a rifle or cartridge and certainly ok to not buy one, but hating one seems a little silly to me. (Except that terrible 243!!!)

Anyone else have a “Dead” caliber they own or have owned? Maybe even enjoyed it?

 

[CBH Australia]

The problem with new-fangled cartridges is always three fold.

1.) They are sold in lower quality new guns.

2.) Most never catch on, so you have some relic in just a few short years.

3.) They were built to solve a problem that didn’t exist in the first place or had a great solution already.


Modern history lesson?

.17 caliber guns from 17ppc to 17hmr to 17mach2 and a newer 17winchester. The only one that became common was 17hmr.

WSMs and WSSMs? I lost track honestly. Almost all of them are dead in only a decade, I can‘t remember which one slightly caught on amongst the herd.

6.5s. We already had 6.5x55 and 6.5 mannlicher. They had to make the 6.5 grendel. Then everyone had to have the 6.5x284 as the IT gun about 12 years ago. Now its the 6.5 creedmore. There were piles others too. 264 win? The list is long. In a hundred years, the 6.5x55 and 6.5MS will still exist, and probably the Creedmore.

6mms? 244 remington? 50 others that have come and gone, all copying the 243win that is the survivor.

7x57, 284, 7x61, 7x64, 280, 280ai, 7mm Rem, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, a new 280AI that isn‘t compatible with the old 280AI, etc. (7x57, 7x64, and 7mm Rem will survive...all the others are hiccups in the annals of history in 20 years)

S#@t, I hope you are wrong about the .280ai, it's the only non standard chambered rifle I own. Partly from reading on the 7x57 then 7x64 and .280 , I had some discussions and read up on the .280ai. I like it.

I considered a .300blackout briefly. I believe it was designed to be used in AR platforms for close combat. It's probably great for that. Its can be used suppressed with subsonic ammo for that , again probably works for the military and close combat, suburban areas and buildings.
I considered getting a .300bo in a Ruger ranch rifle for a compact truck rifle where a fox or a pig might be shot within 100yards from the vehicle.
I can't have a suppressor, if I could I could run low velocity .308 to the same effect. I'm not in combat, getting 2-3 quick shots on pigs is as good as it gets. A suppressed rifle might be an advantage of you have cover. .

I can see why @Rell keeps those rifles but also acknowledged they are something that never caught on.

I'm not sure Bruce was hating on anything, just had a very straight forward way of saying what he thought.

He was an experienced shooter across various disciplines but did not always cc ondone the latest fad. He did not see that something new was always the answer. I don't think money was the issue. I don't think he liked the commercial marketing hype pushing purchase of the latest whizbang or accessories that do not guarantee any improvement in performance. Performance is affected by many things.

Hey I have a mate who is a keen deer hunter and loves his .325wsm . Do you think I can impart Bob's wisdom upon him?

I might never own a WSM or WSSM or SAUM or RUM or 6.8western. Bit I guess we have options and like different things.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I considered a .300blackout briefly. I believe it was designed to be used in AR platforms for close combat. It's probably great for that. Its can be used suppressed with subsonic ammo for that , again probably works for the military and close combat, suburban areas and buildings.
I considered getting a .300bo in a Ruger ranch rifle for a compact truck rifle where a fox or a pig might be shot within 100yards from the vehicle.
I can't have a suppressor, if I could I could run low velocity .308 to the same effect. I'm not in combat, getting 2-3 quick shots on pigs is as good as it gets. A suppressed rifle might be an advantage of you have cover.

I considered the 300 BLK briefly and hated the idea. I thought it was a stupid little round much like the .243 and 7.62x39 which were both championed by my Uncle earlier in life when thinking about a functional deer rifle for me. I could handle a .30-06 so neither made sense to me at the time. The .300 Whisper came along and I thought it was a silly idea especially in the T/C Contender I saw it in.

My perception of the 300 BLK all changed when I decided to get a suppressor. Originally I figured I'd throw one on the AR to shut it up a little and then play with it on a 300 WM for hunting. Folks said you really ought to try a 300 BLK with the suppressor; you'll love it. So I built one and shot it with supersonic ammunition and it was quite tolerable yet it appeared to do a great wallop on steel. Once I had made some subsonic handloads the fun really began in earnest. It is subtle and quite energetic. I am sorry I waited as long as I did to get into this caliber.

Like you I had considered the .308 for sub and supersonic, but the powder usage is much more than a 300 BLK.

 

[CBH Australia]

@Forrest Halley

I only think a .308 subsonic suppressed or not eliminates the need for an " extra rifle "

We can't have semi autos or suppressors so we don't have AR's for general use,

I can see why you would do this where you can have an AR, or if you just need the .300blk but for now I have 2x .308 or I would consider it .

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley

I only think a .308 subsonic suppressed or not eliminates the need for an " extra rifle "

We can't have semi autos or suppressors so we don't have AR's for general use,

I can see why you would do this where you can have an AR, or if you just need the .300blk but for now I have 2x .308 or I would consider it .

I understand your take on this as well. I would load slow subsonics in your case at about 750 fps and fire them through the 24 inch barrel. Hopefully it will be quiet enough and you can be discreet as needed. Use the heaviest bullet you can find.

 

[Vinootz]

Never been a big fan fan of short actions.
All the advantages belong to the manufacturer.
I don’t see the 2 oz of weight or 1/2” of bolt throw making much difference.
The problem comes with case capacity and the attainable energy/velocity.
Bullet seating depth and powder compression become issues for reloaders.

You would have thought that Winchester learned their lesson with the relative failures of the WSM and WSSM cartridges.
Apparently not.

Agree with @USMA84DAB
Let’s see where this is in 10 years and then I’ll take another look.

Quite frankly, I’m kinda embarrassed to say that I don’t understand the distinguishing of action length. Short action, standard,magnum; makes no difference to me. Is it just the bolt throw or is there some other significance? Maybe if one is looking to change the chambering? Aim,shoot,hit with proficiency; that’s all that matters to me. Could be any rifle or action length. As for the 6.8 western? A shortened 270wsm will not have any meaningful differences in performance compared to existing cartridges. The ammo market is flooded with overlap. However, if companies want to add more to the mix I say why not? Sometimes companies realize the sales potential of the consumer’s boredom and offer new and refreshing products. I was bored of the old faithful cartridges at the start of the new millennium. So I deviated from my norm and tried a fad cartridge. I bought two 325wsm rifles cause I wanted more energy at 500 -600 yards than a
30-06 could produce. I could have done without them but they at worst added two beautiful rifles to my collection. New cartridges are a good thing. Can’t hurt. We’ll maybe it’ll hurt your wallet. Happy shooting folks.

 

[BeeMaa]

Regardless of religious background, opinion, following (or lack thereof), things can be learned from nearly any of the organized religions. In this case the Old Testament of the Bible (King James Version), the book of Ecclesiastes 1:9 quoted here...

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[rookhawk]

Quite frankly, I’m kinda embarrassed to say that I don’t understand the distinguishing of action length. Short action, standard,magnum; makes no difference to me. Is it just the bolt throw or is there some other significance? Maybe if one is looking to change the chambering? Aim,shoot,hit with proficiency; that’s all that matters to me. Could be any rifle or action length. As for the 6.8 western? A shortened 270wsm will not have any meaningful differences in performance compared to existing cartridges. The ammo market is flooded with overlap. However, if companies want to add more to the mix I say why not? Sometimes companies realize the sales potential of the consumer’s boredom and offer new and refreshing products. I was bored of the old faithful cartridges at the start of the new millennium. So I deviated from my norm and tried a fad cartridge. I bought two 325wsm rifles cause I wanted more energy at 500 -600 yards than a
30-06 could produce. I could have done without them but they at worst added two beautiful rifles to my collection. New cartridges are a good thing. Can’t hurt. We’ll maybe it’ll hurt your wallet. Happy shooting folks.

Two things on action lengths.

1.) In the olden days there were best guns where the action was built to compliment the cartridge. An example is a the stunning and rare Mauser “Kurz“ action. It shoots the 8x51mm cartridge and a few others (Rigby recently made a few for $100,000 each that shot .223). Everything about the whole gun is scaled down and its as stunning to handle as a true “baby frame” English 28 bore shotgun that weighs 5.25lbs.

2.) Then there is the modern marketing scheme. This is the mentality I hate. The engineering guys got together and tried to figure out how to reduce their number of SKUs so they had fewer parts and could make more profits cutting more corners. The marketing guys then formed the scheme to convince the somewhat ignorant public that they need this new amazing, totally innovative caliber. Why do you need this new caliber? Because it fits in dime-store mass produced actions that cost 1/10th to 1/20th the cost to manufacture. Examples include displacing the true long-action that held the 300HH with the medium action that can handle a 300WM. It includes replacing the true-magnum action 416 Rigby with a long action that shoots 416 Remington. It includes replacing the medium action 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with a short action that will shoot a 260 Remington. It includes replacing the Long-to-Magnum action 375HH with a medium-action 375 Ruger. All of this is providing nothing new, just convincing the public to buy an unnecessary caliber that allows the manufacturer to get away with a cheaper action of which they can make many more units due to cross-caliber compatibility.

Evidence that point #2 is absolutely true? How many bolt action rifles have a bolt throw and magazine the correct length for a .223 or a 7.62x39mm? I’m aware of only one, a baby mauser action made by Zastava in Serbia that has an action that is correct for the cartridge. They didn’t sell well because they were expensive to build and had limited cross-caliber compatibility compared to a regular “short action” that could be used for everything from .308Win down.

It’s for the reasons above that you’ll find members of this forum making “Oohs and Ahhs” over guns that have a best grade “correct” action to match a caliber: Double Square Bridge Magnum Mauser for a 500 Jeffery? Yes please. Custom 96 Mauser by Carl Gustav for a custom 6.5x55 Swede? Yes please. Custom stalking rifles built on Mexican Mauser actions? Yes please. Square bridge Kurz mauser actions for an 8x51mm? Yes please. An actual magnum round action for a .404 Jeffery rather than cramming it into a long action? Yes please. <— These are the things that define best guns where form and function are built together from the blueprint, not a marketing shenanigan where they cobble together something from parts on the shelf.

 

[MS 9x56]

Rookhawk you sir are a very astute gentleman. Not to mention a man of refined taste. My hat is off to you sir.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I dunno... there may be too many 'flash in the pan' cartridges that are introduced, prove unpopular, and disappear. The person who ordered a rifle in the very latest, hottest cartridge rapidly realizes that he has an obsolete weapon. Hit restart.

The shooter who orders a rifle shooting an 'obsolete' 50 or 100 year old cartridge finds himself in good company as the cartridge has, over the years, built a following and there is enough demand that manufacturers continue to supply cartridges.

So the question is... are you willing to sacrifice fifty or one hundred feet per second if it means you will have continued availability of cartridges? I am.

This from a guy that is planning his next rifle... a .308 Norma Magnum (read 'obsolete').

... and...

Thanks to Rookhawk for his dissertation on the virtues of 'appropriateness'.

 

[Tanks]

Well, I don't have to worry about "continued" availability of the cartridge I am building a rifle for, 6mm Dasher, as there is no factory ammo for it.

 

[geoff rath]

The problem with new-fangled cartridges is always three fold.

1.) They are sold in lower quality new guns.

2.) Most never catch on, so you have some relic in just a few short years.

3.) They were built to solve a problem that didn’t exist in the first place or had a great solution already.


Modern history lesson?

.17 caliber guns from 17ppc to 17hmr to 17mach2 and a newer 17winchester. The only one that became common was 17hmr.

WSMs and WSSMs? I lost track honestly. Almost all of them are dead in only a decade, I can‘t remember which one slightly caught on amongst the herd.

6.5s. We already had 6.5x55 and 6.5 mannlicher. They had to make the 6.5 grendel. Then everyone had to have the 6.5x284 as the IT gun about 12 years ago. Now its the 6.5 creedmore. There were piles others too. 264 win? The list is long. In a hundred years, the 6.5x55 and 6.5MS will still exist, and probably the Creedmore.

6mms? 244 remington? 50 others that have come and gone, all copying the 243win that is the survivor.

7x57, 284, 7x61, 7x64, 280, 280ai, 7mm Rem, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, a new 280AI that isn‘t compatible with the old 280AI, etc. (7x57, 7x64, and 7mm Rem will survive...all the others are hiccups in the annals of history in 20 years)

Strangely enough, Rob Blomfield (SC Gunsmithing) will be working on a Ruger No1 in 280 AI sometime soon; but then I'm a No 1 tragic...

 

[geoff rath]

I've been looking at the 300AAC as well, but I don't own an AR.
I know you don't need an AR to own a 300AAC, but that's how most consume it.

The beauty of the 300AAC is it fits into a 5.56x45 length chamber.
Basically a 5.56x45 necked up to .30 caliber.
Several uses depending on bullet weight and speed.
I found this video on it and really like this guys videos.
Worth a watch if you are considering the 300AAC.

Have a 300 Blk/ 300.221 Redding, built on a Brno mini-Mauser action; cheap roughy. Fascinating to watch the loop of heavies lumber towards the target under lights, at ni
ght...

 

[geoff rath]

that is the point bob.
however we continue to accept their corruption and excesses that they feel are their right, and watch the sexual antics going on in parliament house that nothing is done about and we turn around and re elect them so they can continue on in privelidge.
and we accept their lies again and again.
and have you ever noticed how neither party argues against another when a wage rise is mooted for them.
so we end up with crap politicians, crap rifles, and crap cartridges, in the fairyland hope that life will be easier for us.
bruce.

Therein lies the continued wildcat development program ...