Minimum stopping round?

[DWB]

I think the 404 and 416 is the best compromise for someone who wants to hunt a lot himself and also do the occasional backup job.

A mate of mine is a PH in Moz and he has used his 404 extensively of buffalo, getting full length penetration with Northfork solids on more than one occasion.

They don't deal with Elephant that much though.

 

[petrusg]

I prefer anything that can shoot a 500gr point at around 2150ft/s

 

[IvW]

Gert has a very valid point.

Proficiency with your chosen weapon is of utmost importance. No use having a rifle or double and you cannot use it properly. I have seen many double taps with double's due to shooter error. I have also seen very few who can reload a double properly, without faltering or having some issue while trying to reload. I have seen guy's short stroking bolt actions, I have seen other with straight pull actions reload, not fire, reload again and not fire!!
Feeding problems, loose scope mounts, etc. etc.

Also no good having a shoulder cannon you cannot use due to excessive recoil. I have seen clients arrive with 460 Weatherby Magnum's, 378 Weatherby's, 375 RUM etc. I have yet to see one who can handle one of these, they generally get beaten so bad they end up shooting very badly with these rifles and that can make for what was suppose to be an enjoyable hunt/safari turn into a nightmare.

I would much rather hunt with somebody who can handle his chosen firearm and is completely familiar with it, than with a brand new Magnum of sorts.

As for back-up much better using a rifle or double and cartridge combination that you are comfortable with. I would much rather have somebody as back-up who can handle and is proficient with a 404 Jeff loaded with premium grade bullets than with somebody using a larger rifle or double he cannot handle.

375 H&H although the "King" of the medium bores is not a dangerous game back-up rifle. For a client using one on DG it is more than sufficient if used with premium grade bullets. I would also not use a 458 Win Mag as a back-up rifle for that matter.

When I started my hunting career I wanted to just hunt dangerous game. My mentor used a bolt action. Whenever we would go out after any dangerous game, first thing in the morning with the first cup of coffee, he would take his rifle, take the bullets he was going to carry with him, load them into the rifle and cycle each and every one through the rifle. He would then put them into the cartridge holder and keep the ones he was going to use in the rifle in his pocket. He would repeat this exercise every day without fail even if he new he never used one and replaced it from the cartridge holder.

I never forgot that lesson. To this day I do the same thing every time before I go out.
I also pull a bore snake through the barrel, first thing in the morning and again at night before I go to sleep.

I generally have 4 bullets in the rifle, 10 in a cartridge holder and 1 extra one in my pocket.

The old saying "Practice makes perfect" is very true and relevant in this situation.

To finish off, the fastest recorded time(hitting the target aimed at) for the Zimbabwe PH proficiency test is held by a single shot falling block!

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Gert has a very valid point.

Proficiency with your chosen weapon is of utmost importance. No use having a rifle or double and you cannot use it properly. I have seen many double taps with double's due to shooter error. I have also seen very few who can reload a double properly, without faltering or having some issue while trying to reload. I have seen guy's short stroking bolt actions, I have seen other with straight pull actions reload, not fire, reload again and not fire!!
Feeding problems, loose scope mounts, etc. etc.

Also no good having a shoulder cannon you cannot use due to excessive recoil. I have seen clients arrive with 460 Weatherby Magnum's, 378 Weatherby's, 375 RUM etc. I have yet to see one who can handle one of these, they generally get beaten so bad they end up shooting very badly with these rifles and that can make for what was suppose to be an enjoyable hunt/safari turn into a nightmare.

I would much rather hunt with somebody who can handle his chosen firearm and is completely familiar with it, than with a brand new Magnum of sorts.

As for back-up much better using a rifle or double and cartridge combination that you are comfortable with. I would much rather have somebody as back-up who can handle and is proficient with a 404 Jeff loaded with premium grade bullets than with somebody using a larger rifle or double he cannot handle.

375 H&H although the "King" of the medium bores is not a dangerous game back-up rifle. For a client using one on DG it is more than sufficient if used with premium grade bullets. I would also not use a 458 Win Mag as a back-up rifle for that matter.

When I started my hunting career I wanted to just hunt dangerous game. My mentor used a bolt action. Whenever we would go out after any dangerous game, first thing in the morning with the first cup of coffee, he would take his rifle, take the bullets he was going to carry with him, load them into the rifle and cycle each and every one through the rifle. He would then put them into the cartridge holder and keep the ones he was going to use in the rifle in his pocket. He would repeat this exercise every day without fail even if he new he never used one and replaced it from the cartridge holder.

I never forgot that lesson. To this day I do the same thing every time before I go out.
I also pull a bore snake through the barrel, first thing in the morning and again at night before I go to sleep.

I generally have 4 bullets in the rifle, 10 in a cartridge holder and 1 extra one in my pocket.

The old saying "Practice makes perfect" is very true and relevant in this situation.

To finish off, the fastest recorded time(hitting the target aimed at) for the Zimbabwe PH proficiency test is held by a single shot falling block!

IvW
At a Dangerous Game shoot course at our Big Bore range a hunter ( women) demonstrated how to do fast re-loading with a Ruger Nr. 1 rifle, I think the caliber was either a .375 H&H Magnum or a 45-70 Government..I am not sure..she re-loaded this rifle really fast..about faster than what I was able to do with my 404 Jeffery..it really is unbelievable what a person can do with a rifle he/she knows as if it is the back of your hand..I am of the opinion that if you really knows your rifle and handle/shoot it a lot , excellent/accurate placement will come naturally...

 

[Jimbob]

Fantastic replies one and all. I think Gert's point of making sure the rifle is reliable and well practiced with is a good one, however I would hope we all know this by now! Regardless, very worthwhile and sensible post.

As for calibre, it seems we have basically two camps:
1. 404/416 with 400gr or better.
2. 500gr or better (so 458 and up)

Out of those who opted for number 2 only one person specified velocity that I noticed. Pro Hunting Safaris wants around 2150fps so that's 450 NE or 458 Win Mag with modern loads.
However, IvW didn't specify what he uses but did say that 458 Win wasn't for him. He also echoed what many think, that is it's better to have less power and more control. IvM, what do you use?

I must admit, I am finding this pretty interesting. In my mind, stopping cartridges start at .458 but am fully open to the 404 and 416's. I think a 50 of some sort is my kind of thing, a more sensible outlook than my last view of "I need a 577"

 

[IvW]

My personal DG back up rifle is a custom 500 Jeff, on a ZKK 602 action, shooting 570 gn Rhino's at 2300 Fps, devastatingly effective in any situation.

 

[DWB]

@ Gert Odendaal,

She actually shoots a 416 Rigby in Ruger No1

And as you say, highly efficient with Rifle

 

[Pondoro]

I am not a professional....I have a ZKK 602 in .458Win.

I am not totally pleased by the effect of the .458Win. on elephant, even with compressed loads and modern solids. So I have decided to make a .500 Jeffery on that ZKK 602.....I see many users write glowingly about its effect on elephant..

I will try to do this a bit on a shoestring....I just bought a darn cheap laminated stock.....got myself an unused .50 caliber machinegun barrel (liberated from our Army ages ago.......), will cut away the hard-metal part..

The focus will be 100% function.....a thick 25 inch barrel and about 5,5kg to tame recoil..

The more I read about the .500 Jeffery the more thrilled I am....

 

[DWB]

I am not a professional....I have a ZKK 602 in .458Win.

I am not totally pleased by the effect of the .458Win. on elephant, even with compressed loads and modern solids. So I have decided to make a .500 Jeffery on that ZKK 602.....I see many users write glowingly about its effect on elephant..

I will try to do this a bit on a shoestring....I just bought a darn cheap laminated stock.....got myself an unused .50 caliber machinegun barrel (liberated from our Army ages ago.......), will cut away the hard-metal part..

The focus will be 100% function.....a thick 25 inch barrel and about 5,5kg to tame recoil..

The more I read about the .500 Jeffery the more thrilled I am....

Many people are converting their ZKK602 and CZ550 Magnum 458s to the 450 Rigby, quite a venerable round.

Reports out of the Kruger Park is full length penetration on bull Elephants with Dzombo solids.

But yes, the 500 Jeff is EPIC!

Problem especially in SA with the 458 Win is that we cannot get acceptable performance from it (with our available powders), even the Lott is a struggle with some powders, hence the development of the 458 3" Express that performs very well powders.

 

[IvW]

I am not a professional....I have a ZKK 602 in .458Win.

I am not totally pleased by the effect of the .458Win. on elephant, even with compressed loads and modern solids. So I have decided to make a .500 Jeffery on that ZKK 602.....I see many users write glowingly about its effect on elephant..

I will try to do this a bit on a shoestring....I just bought a darn cheap laminated stock.....got myself an unused .50 caliber machinegun barrel (liberated from our Army ages ago.......), will cut away the hard-metal part..

The focus will be 100% function.....a thick 25 inch barrel and about 5,5kg to tame recoil..

The more I read about the .500 Jeffery the more thrilled I am....

You are on the right track. Just build a 500 Jeff and get rid of the 458 Win. Re-chambering to 450 Rigby is another excellent option. This will give you a 550 gr Rhino bullet easily at 2300 Fps, you cant ask for much more(except a 500 Jeff of course!)

You may want to check the barrel twist on the machine gun barrel if it came off a 50 BMG anti aircraft gun the twist may be too fast as the anti aircraft shot a 750 grain bullet.

 

[DM Shooting]

Jim bob

I think with the areas you shoot and your taste for big gun your only option is a 600 NE as just to add to the punishment build it like an ultra light mountain rifle.

Daf

 

[Jimbob]

You know me depressingly well Daf! I think I would be happiest with a 50 but I'm having snags with my design which would be fixed by going to a 458 Win Mag or variant on the same case. A 404 Jeff like yours is possible also.
No 50's though unless I can find a mag which accommodates one (which isn't BMG).

 

[Rule 303]

@ Gert Odendaal,

She actually shoots a 416 Rigby in Ruger No1

And as you say, highly efficient with Rifle

She is quite a lady and shooter then. I have a 416Rigby in a CZ550. Ruger No1's kick like an enraged bull. If any person can handle one of those in 416 Rigby they have better recoil tolerance than me but to be able to reload fast and back on target, I am very impressed. I dips me lid to her.

 

[spike.t]

@ Gert Odendaal,

She actually shoots a 416 Rigby in Ruger No1

And as you say, highly efficient with Rifle

would love to see a video of her shooting it rapid . sounds like it would be interesting to watch

 

[spike.t]

I have a ZKK 602 in .458Win

why not get it converted to .458 lott ?

 

[spike.t]

Many people are converting their ZKK602 and CZ550 Magnum 458s to the 450 Rigby, quite a venerable round.

the .450 rigby is not that venerable as paul only started developing it in the earl 1990`s, and was available mid 90`s to buy. good calibre though even if it is a youngster

 

[spike.t]

You know me depressingly well Daf! I think I would be happiest with a 50 but I'm having snags with my design which would be fixed by going to a 458 Win Mag or variant on the same case. A 404 Jeff like yours is possible also.
No 50's though unless I can find a mag which accommodates one (which isn't BMG).

the lott is very good if you need to use something in the 458 size

 

[Jimbob]

Unfortunately Spike the issue is length, not in the action as that can be made as long as I want but in magazine length.
The design is worked around a detachable mag you see.
10 and 5 shot mags easily available in 300WM so with a little work will feed 458WM.
There is 5 shot mags in 375 H&H/300 RUM so the longer stuff is likely an option but sacrificing capacity.
Then again, it's unlikely I'll ever need more than 5 shots and a 5 shot would give a nice profile and be easier to make feed lovely.

 

[spike.t]

jimbob if the 458 lott works in the 5rnd mag and you cant get anything bigger to work , then that is what i would go for. gives you a 500 grn bullet at 2300fps .....

 

[Jimbob]

I think that's a good shout. Conversely, I reckon 500 Jeff would go in a 338 Lap Mag magazine....