Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[grand veneur]

It's very difficult to judge and condemn all of this if you were not there.

@Hunter-Habib

As for the attack in Africa’s Black Death, we interpreted it differently in the 1990s. MS could have easily shot the prone buffalo, but he waited a long time before firing and missed it. But that was the only situation I can remember that was heavily criticized at the time. Unfortunately, sometimes a single negative incident is enough to ruin a reputation.

As for buffalo attacks, may be you don't need to wound a buffalo to provoke something like that. I can remember two situations in two different countries. As we were following a buffalo trail in dense vegetation with poor visibility we regularly noticed at the track that the buffalo was turning and looking in our direction and doing that more and more frequently. The local guides and trackers became anxious and were of the opinion that perhaps we should not continue, as an attack could not be ruled out. We ended the tracking for this reason, but if we had continued, I might perhaps are also able to realize myself.

 

[Sika98k]

It's very difficult to judge and condemn all of this if you were not there.

@Hunter-Habib

As for the attack in Africa’s Black Death, we interpreted it differently in the 1990s. MS could have easily shot the prone buffalo, but he waited a long time before firing and missed it. But that was the only situation I can remember that was heavily criticized at the time. Unfortunately, sometimes a single negative incident is enough to ruin a reputation.

As for buffalo attacks, may be you don't need to wound a buffalo to provoke something like that. I can remember two situations in two different countries. As we were following a buffalo trail in dense vegetation with poor visibility we regularly noticed at the track that the buffalo was turning and looking in our direction and doing that more and more frequently. The local guides and trackers became anxious and were of the opinion that perhaps we should not continue, as an attack could not be ruled out. We ended the tracking for this reason, but if we had continued, I might perhaps are also able to realize myself.

Your last paragraph reminds me of reading one of Ron Thomsons books where he asks, hypothetically, what is the most dangerous buffalo to hunt ?
He answers this himself by saying it is the one you have pushed all day from hiding spot to hiding spot. He eventually becomes thoroughly pissed off and turns on his pursuers. No broken leg, no bullet wound to slow him up, just 7-800 kg of very angry buffalo.

 

[BGGMKLR]

This is such an asinine thread.

E V E R Y... S I N G L E...
T I M E.

 

[HankBuck]

All sorts of shots can end an animal’s suffering quickly. The issue, for me, is when they are taken. That is typically where the rationalization begins.

@Red Leg - No Shot kills faster than a Brain Shot…Fast Death with the least suffering. There is No “right” answer on this thread, opinions have already been decided, no one is changing their mind. Someone just posted that this thread is “Asinine” and Yet they-keep-posting??

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@Red Leg - No Shot kills faster than a Brain Shot…Fast Death with the least suffering. There is No “right” answer on this thread, opinions have already been decided, no one is changing their mind. Someone just posted that this thread is “Asinine” and Yet they-keep-posting??

I will too. Can’t let the wrong side have the last word or it may seem like acceptance

 

[ruffcountry]

x100

“ I’m actually quite surprised that people can accuse me of delaying in putting an animal out of it’s misery just because I said something about letting the buffalo decide how it’s going to die. If anything, I actually think I put them out of their pain the fastest. After a client shoots an animal (especially buff) on safari and the critter makes off, a lot of phs will actually tell their clients to allow the buff some time to “stiffen up” before they do tophe follow up. When they find it, the buffalo is dead. During the time it takes for the buff to “Stiffen up”, isn’t it suffering ? Isn’t the phs policy purposefully increasing the duration of time for which the animal’s in pain ? The hypocrisy in our industry is that somehow this is okay. But when I immediately follow up a wounded buffalo with the firm intent of finding it still alive and killing it, I’m the one accused of delaying the chance of a quick death for the animal”

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Mark would probably like this thread... it's been hard hit but it's not dead, and he could or would give it a chance to decide how it wants to die.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Mark would probably like this thread... it's been hard hit but it's not dead, and he could or would give it a chance to decide how it wants to die.

Possibly the most entertaining post in this thread

 

[BULLET SAFARIS]

I'd have to disagree with you on your last point.
Dr Kevin Robertson would have generated an equal amount of interest if not more with his books.
"The perfect shot"

Maybe... but Hunters typically buy the perfect shot book (or other books on Africa) after they are hooked on Africa.

My point was give credit where credit is due and Mark Sullivan got a lot of folks thinking and dreaming and talking about hunting Africa - and that's a net positive for Africa and for hunting.

Would be interesting to see who has sold more copies = marks DVDs or Perfect Shot. Certainly in views/unique exposures Marks Videos would be way way past and book sales.

 

[Bonk]

He’s said in many of his videos, he’ll give the wounded buffalo a chance on how it all will play out by carefully closing the distance which often provokes a charge and he often relies on his cool resolve and superior skill at arms with his double to resolve the situation.

In the aviation world we have a saying:

Superior pilots don’t rely on superior skills to overcome stupid decisions.

 

[HankBuck]

In the aviation world we have a saying:

Superior pilots don’t rely on superior skills to overcome stupid decisions.

@Bonk - Aviation “sayings” don’t apply to Hunting ie: the saying “There’s Old Pilots and Bold Pilots but there are NO “Old Bold Pilots”. Which is Not True in regards to MS - He’s Bold AND Old….and the only thing that Crashes are Brain Shot Buff..

 

[BJH65]

In the aviation world we have a saying:

Superior pilots don’t rely on superior skills to overcome stupid decisions.

Except that isn’t true. I learned about Lt Col Arthur “Bud” Holland years ago in a leadership class. He possessed superior skills as a B52 pilot except he pushed the envelope and wasn't appropriately reigned in by his leadership which ultimately created a situation where the 1994 disaster occurred.

To me possession of excellent physical skills, dexterity, agility, hand eye coordination doesn’t always correspond to sound judgment. There are those who possess superior skills but will push the envelope like Evil Knievel.

In my previous law enforcement career, I conducted risk-benefit analysis as part of my job in a variety of critical incidents and tactical settings and I’m certain most in the aviation industry practiced similar risk management. But there are those “operators” and pilots who can and will push the envelope perhaps beyond what a lesser skilled individual may do.

 

[Bonk]

@Bonk - Aviation “sayings” don’t apply to Hunting ie: the saying “There’s Old Pilots and Bold Pilots but there are NO “Old Bold Pilots”. Which is Not True in regards to MS - He’s Bold AND Old….and the only thing that Crashes are Brain Shot Buff..

So far…..

Hopefully he retires safe and sound but his luck may run out.

 

[Bonk]

Except that isn’t true. I learned about Lt Col Arthur “Bud” Holland years ago in a leadership class. He possessed superior skills as a B52 pilot except he pushed the envelope and wasn't appropriately reigned in by his leadership which ultimately created a situation where the 1994 disaster occurred.

To me possession of excellent physical skills, dexterity, agility, hand eye coordination doesn’t always correspond to sound judgment. There are those who possess superior skills but will push the envelope like Evil Knievel.

In my previous law enforcement career, I conducted risk-benefit analysis as part of my job in a variety of critical incidents and tactical settings and I’m certain most in the aviation industry practiced similar risk management. But there are those “operators” and pilots who can and will push the envelope perhaps beyond what a lesser skilled individual may do.

How is what I wrote not true? You referenced a guy that let his ego exceed the envelope of the aircraft he was flying. It ignored basic aerodynamics, resulted in a hull loss and the death of three other people. How does that reference invalidate what I wrote. Seems to me it proves my point.

 

[BJH65]

How is what I wrote not true? You referenced a guy that let his ego exceed the envelope of the aircraft he was flying. It ignored basic aerodynamics, resulted in a hull loss and the death of three other people. How does that reference invalidate what I wrote. Seems to me it proves my point.

You definitely have a point it! Regarding that pilot, it eventually caught up with him but he got away with pushing the performance envelope previously, many times before that fatal incident.

 

[rookhawk]

I’ve taken the time to break down ALL of Mark’s Cape buffalo charges on video over the last 35 years of his career. Hopefully, it will provide a three dimensional perspective on his hunting videos. The six charging hippopotamus which he shot, were all COMPLETELY unwounded prior to the charge. So nobody can claim that he or his clients wounded them just to instigate a charge. They weren’t wounded at all.

Out of the nine of his client’s Cape buffalo, which Mark shot on video… three were at departing animals while the client was also simultaneously firing away (and in at least one of the videos, the client specifically told him to step in if he thought that the animal was going to get away).

Here are the other six, as well as the films where they occurred.

Africa’s Black Death- One charge. Client (Mr. Barnes) was in very poor health and had only one arm. He fired from the truck several times and finally wounded the Cape buffalo. Mark walked up to the wounded animal and fired his first barrel into the buffalo (an attempted brain shot) while it turned to face him whilst simultaneously standing up. His second shot kills the buffalo mid-charge. Critics often like to claim that Mark prolonged it’s suffering just so that it could charge. But that’s impossible considering that he fires his first shot into it’s head even before it had begun to charge. And NOBODY (except for a psychic with a crystal ball, perhaps) in that situation could tell that the Cape buffalo would survive the first shot long enough to charge.

MBOGO- One charge on hunt five. Client wounds the buffalo and it runs off into grass that must be eight to ten feet high and very thick. The group enters the grass in a truck and the buffalo charges immediately. Mark and client shoot together with Mark’s first shot in the eye that stops the buffalo.

Sudden Death- One charge which happened shortly after the first shots (put in by the client) and then Mark, his son, Shawn, and two hunters all emptied their doubles into the buffalo.

Death On The Run- Mark and the client walked through some open land to some brush where a wounded buffalo was waiting. As they came around to the left the buffalo charged instantly and totally unprovoked. The client’s shot missed and the buffalo came on to Mark. With his .600 Nitro Express, the first shot was low but stunned the buffalo and when he dropped his head … Mark put a second shot down through the top of the boss.

Death At My Feet- One charge and Mark only stepped in because the client ran out of cartridges without being able to stop the Cape buffalo.

Mark Egger’s Safari DVD- The client fires at a Cape buffalo which is in a patch of terrain where the only way out is through Mark & his client. So it charges/tries to escape and the client fires more shots into the Cape buffalo and temporarily downs it. The client begins to reload. The Cape buffalo stands up again and pushes forward. Mark sees his client reloading and so fires off one shot into the Cape buffalo’s head. Which stuns it but misses the brain. The client then brains the Cape buffalo himself.

Finally, I recently had a conversation with Mark and he gave me a statement which I’ve copy pasted here:
“ I’m actually quite surprised that people can accuse me of delaying in putting an animal out of it’s misery just because I said something about letting the buffalo decide how it’s going to die. If anything, I actually think I put them out of their pain the fastest. After a client shoots an animal (especially buff) on safari and the critter makes off, a lot of phs will actually tell their clients to allow the buff some time to “stiffen up” before they do tophe follow up. When they find it, the buffalo is dead. During the time it takes for the buff to “Stiffen up”, isn’t it suffering ? Isn’t the phs policy purposefully increasing the duration of time for which the animal’s in pain ? The hypocrisy in our industry is that somehow this is okay. But when I immediately follow up a wounded buffalo with the firm intent of finding it still alive and killing it, I’m the one accused of delaying the chance of a quick death for the animal”

Point of order. On the Hippo charges I saw in the Sullivan videos they were all on land and completely messed up. The Hippo was on land, ornery as can be, suffering from some puncture or slash wound from another hippo. As such, they are sunburned and miserable, yet they cannot go to the water because of a prior wound unrelated to the hunter. This is a common reason to find Hippos on land rather than in the water.

I have no dog in this hunt, but Sullivan is no special magician, he's finding hippos on terra firma for the same reasons we usually do. Chasing them back to water, then forcing them to charge back to the land in this circumstance is all about ego, not about a quick death for the animal.

To the secular humanists reading this, make up your own morality and feel free to love or hate his treatment of his quarry. However, to the followers of western religion Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, I'd remind you that one of the core tenants of the faiths is that we are superior to animals because of our desire to reduce suffering.

Sullivan is the antithesis of the notion of expeditious effort to reduce suffering. Put another way, according to the people of the book, his conduct is unwholesome and animalistic.

 

[rookhawk]

P.S. - I'd like to remind you all of the sanctity of copyrights. Just because Sullivan's entire catalog is on bittorrent for illegal, anonymous download doesn't make it right. If you're curious about his 15+ films you should buy them all for $50 each, not download the bit torrent client, do a search for "sullivan + death" and watch them for free.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Point of order. On the Hippo charges I saw in the Sullivan videos they were all on land and completely messed up. The Hippo was on land, ornery as can be, suffering from some puncture or slash wound from another hippo. As such, they are sunburned and miserable, yet they cannot go to the water because of a prior wound unrelated to the hunter. This is a common reason to find Hippos on land rather than in the water.

I have no dog in this hunt, but Sullivan is no special magician, he's finding hippos on terra firma for the same reasons we usually do. Chasing them back to water, then forcing them to charge back to the land in this circumstance is all about ego, not about a quick death for the animal.

To the secular humanists reading this, make up your own morality and feel free to love or hate his treatment of his quarry. However, to the followers of western religion Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, I'd remind you that one of the core tenants of the faiths is that we are superior to animals because of our desire to reduce suffering.

Sullivan is the antithesis of the notion of expeditious effort to reduce suffering. Put another way, according to the people of the book, his conduct is unwholesome and animalistic.

And the point still stands that NOT A SINGLE ONE of the charging hippopotamuses which he has shot... were wounded by Mark or his clients prior to the charge. Not one.

If he exploited the quarry's natural habits in order to shoot it while charging... well, then while it's not everybody's cup of tea, it's definitely not as bad as some of Mark's critics make it out to be.

Yes, we have a moral obligation to reduce the suffering CAUSED BY US of the game that we hunt. But the fact that those hippopotamuses were "Ornery" or wounded by other hippopotamuses is completely irrelevant to Mark's responsibility as a hunter. He did absolutely nothing to physically harm them prior to taking the shot that ends their life.

By your logic, the bad mood of any animal which we are pursuing... would seem to fall on our shoulders even if we didn't do anything to physically harm the animal except for the shot which ends it's life. In that case, hunting leopard over hounds (where the leopard WILL charge when pushed long enough) or hunting driven game (where the animals are being FORCED to move towards your direction out of duress) would also be unethical. Maybe it is to you, but ethics vary between each & every individual hunter. Barring for some common ones such as not wounding game in order to specifically draw out it’s suffering. And Mark has never done this.

If all hunters hunted in the exact same manner (which is unfortunately what a lot of self righteous judgmental hunters seem to want these days), then the world would be a pretty boring place. Some people hunt in manners which others might not like, but (as long as some common principles are adhered to) we have to be okay with that. Deliberately wounding an animal is universally unethical. Exploiting it’s natural behavior in order to shoot it during a charge, may be seen as unethical by some people. But it’s definitely not the same thing. And it’s definitely not something which only Mark is “guilty” of. Many hunters have done this in the last one hundred years.

 

[hwr239]

This is such an asinine thread.

Then why do you keep participating?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Then why do you keep participating?

See post #325