LOP for Rapid Bolt Operation

intj

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I have been searching and haven't really found this addressed.

Almost all my hunting rifles have 13.5ish LOPs. They are all very comfortable to shoot with that LOP. However, I can't work the bolt rapidly with the rifle at my shoulder and maintain sight picture with that LOP.

I am working toward a buffalo hunt and I will take either my .416 Rem or .458 Lott, so a shorter pull could be an issue with recoil.

How have you guys solved this issue?
 
There was a thread recently discussing this and there's no real consensus on which way is the 'best' way. A quick search should bring up the thread and embedded in the thread is at least one video from a pro suggesting that lowering the rifle to cycle the bolt may be the better way. He sold me.
 
I crank a bolt like I am trying to yank it out of the gun and then I slam it home with equal aggression. What works best for me is tilting my head slightly to the left when working the bolt. Rifle always stays on my shoulder. Get you a handful of snap caps and practice, practice, practice. You can get the fancy store bought snap caps or make your own. Lots of practice and you will develop a technique that works best for you.

Safe shooting
 
Keep in mind that regardless of LOP, the length of cycle of the bolt on a magnum action will be longer--especially the Mauser M98 magnum action. Takes some getting used to.
I also agree with the poster above about lowering the rifle to cycle the bolt. Helps with keeping your vision forward on the target. There is a youtube video by an African PH demonstrating this.
 
There was a thread recently discussing this and there's no real consensus on which way is the 'best' way. A quick search should bring up the thread and embedded in the thread is at least one video from a pro suggesting that lowering the rifle to cycle the bolt may be the better way. He sold me.

I saw that thread and video, but I didn't see anyone really address shortening the stock until you can run it fast.

All the typical discussion seems to be how heavy recoiling rifles need a longer pull.
 
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I crank a bolt like I am trying to yank it out of the gun and then I slam it home with equal aggression. What works best for me is tilting my head slightly to the left when working the bolt. Rifle always stays on my shoulder. Get you a handful of snap caps and practice, practice, practice. You can get the fancy store bought snap caps or make your own. Lots of practice and you will develop a technique that works best for you.

Safe shooting

So you don't worry about keeping the sight picture?
 
Keep in mind that regardless of LOP, the length of cycle of the bolt on a magnum action will be longer--especially the Mauser M98 magnum action. Takes some getting used to.
I also agree with the poster above about lowering the rifle to cycle the bolt. Helps with keeping your vision forward on the target. There is a youtube video by an African PH demonstrating this.

Almost all my rifles are long and magnum actions. I don't find that to be an issue. The issue is the bolt handle is too far away....
 
So you don't worry about keeping the sight picture?
Not really. Reloading the rifle is part of getting back on the target post recoil. With light recoiling rifles and shorter bolts, I generally don’t need to move my big bald head out of the way. :LOL:

Eyes should stay on the target as best as possible, regardless of what else is going on with the rifle.

Safe hunting
 
If you wish to cycle a bolt action rifle faster, may I suggest taking a look at the Blaser R8. This is a straight pull action and significantly faster to reload than a traditional bolt action rifle. Has nothing to do with the LOP, just a change in equipment.

There are other straight pull action rifles out there, most of them from Europe. Examples are the Heym SR 30, Strasser RS14, Haenel Jaeger and Beretta BRX1. And from the US...Savage Impulse. These actions are more popular overseas for driven hunts where reloading needs to be extremely quick, but semi-auto rifles are not allowed or are severely restricted.

Here is a link to me shooting my Blaser R8 375H&H at my local range. Weight of the rifle is 7.75 lbs and I'm shooting Barnes 300 grain TSX factory loads.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z78JTDbmnpRXB4ig9
 
If you wish to cycle a bolt action rifle faster, may I suggest taking a look at the Blaser R8. This is a straight pull action and significantly faster to reload than a traditional bolt action rifle. Has nothing to do with the LOP, just a change in equipment.

There are other straight pull action rifles out there, most of them from Europe. Examples are the Heym SR 30, Strasser RS14, Haenel Jaeger and Beretta BRX1. And from the US...Savage Impulse. These actions are more popular overseas for driven hunts where reloading needs to be extremely quick, but semi-auto rifles are not allowed or are severely restricted.

Here is a link to me shooting my Blaser R8 375H&H at my local range. Weight of the rifle is 7.75 lbs and I'm shooting Barnes 300 grain TSX factory loads.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z78JTDbmnpRXB4ig9

It will be either my M-70 or my CZ 550 Safari. I know people have solved this issue for DG bolt guns, just hoping someone here has figured it out.
 
My experience is just different. Hunting buffalo is not the same as a 303 Enfield “mad minute”. Recoil from a 375, and more so a 416, takes a little bit to get back on target and focus. Just get comfortable reloading immediately after taking your shot. Place the first shot well (!). Almost inevitably, you’ll get a second opportunity on the buffalo as it runs off. It will be a poor, rear quartering, running shot. Just put second one in, “center of mass’. Have fun, practice reloading immediately after your shot, but don’t over think it.
 
My experience is just different. Hunting buffalo is not the same as a 303 Enfield “mad minute”. Recoil from a 375, and more so a 416, takes a little bit to get back on target and focus. Just get comfortable reloading immediately after taking your shot. Place the first shot well (!). Almost inevitably, you’ll get a second opportunity on the buffalo as it runs off. It will be a poor, rear quartering, running shot. Just put second one in, “center of mass’. Have fun, practice reloading immediately after your shot, but don’t over think it.

Thanks! That is exactly the info I am looking for.
 
I have been searching and haven't really found this addressed.

Almost all my hunting rifles have 13.5ish LOPs. They are all very comfortable to shoot with that LOP. However, I can't work the bolt rapidly with the rifle at my shoulder and maintain sight picture with that LOP.

I am working toward a buffalo hunt and I will take either my .416 Rem or .458 Lott, so a shorter pull could be an issue with recoil.

How have you guys solved this issue?

I would not shorten my length of pull for shooting fast. I'm not sure if I was lucky or unlucky. My buff took 9 rounds of 416REM, 400gr AFrames. After 5-6 rounds my form was less than perfect and the scope touched my eyebrow. I was shooting at a downward angle so it made it a little more interesting.

Before the hunt I would practice how fast I could rip off 4 rounds and I would time myself in the process, this taking place at a 25 yard target (3" shoot and see). Goal was to put all 4 in it. I treated it like preparing for a match. Like @318AE mentioned the recoil is more of an issue. With practice you can get good at controlling the recoil. It will take some work, you just have to put the work in. Just my .02.
 
I am an average size guy and have 33" sleeves. My 404J has a 14-1/2" LOP. It is a magnum M98 action. It fits and comes up perfectly when I mount to fire - sticks or straight offhand. The slightly longer LOP keeps the scope at the proper distance from my face (eyebrow).

I have never been comfortable cycling any bolt gun while it is in position on my shoulder. By lowering the gun I get the rifle out of my face so I can see my target clearly and with the gun lower I get better leverage to work the action. Recovery from recoil happens as I lower the gun. I shoot a lot of shotgun targets and remounting the gun takes about 1/4 of a second. BANG takes about one second. Works for me.
 
All this makes sense. What most of you are saying is that there is no need to do rapid bolt gun firing. This means I don't have to change decades of how I have been operating a bolt rifle. I shoot, cycle the bolt as I lower the rifle while keeping my eyes on the target, and then immediately bring up the rifle with the target back in the scope.

I can easily practice that without having to shorten the pull on either the M-70 416 Rem or CZ 458 Lott.

Thanks!
 
All this makes sense. What most of you are saying is that there is no need to do rapid bolt gun firing. This means I don't have to change decades of how I have been operating a bolt rifle. I shoot, cycle the bolt as I lower the rifle while keeping my eyes on the target, and then immediately bring up the rifle with the target back in the scope.

I can easily practice that without having to shorten the pull on either the M-70 416 Rem or CZ 458 Lott.

Thanks!

The rifle never leaves my shoulder if I can help it. I will say it has gone even more smoothly now that I'm running an R8. I still run my Winchester in the same fashion. Again it is just practice, get your rifle on the sticks and dry fire that or whatever way you want. You will see a difference. Dry firing is something I do a lot of before I ever touch the trigger on a live round.
 
I am an average size guy and have 33" sleeves. My 404J has a 14-1/2" LOP. It is a magnum M98 action. It fits and comes up perfectly when I mount to fire - sticks or straight offhand. The slightly longer LOP keeps the scope at the proper distance from my face (eyebrow).

I have never been comfortable cycling any bolt gun while it is in position on my shoulder. By lowering the gun I get the rifle out of my face so I can see my target clearly and with the gun lower I get better leverage to work the action. Recovery from recoil happens as I lower the gun. I shoot a lot of shotgun targets and remounting the gun takes about 1/4 of a second. BANG takes about one second. Works for me.
And that way as you cycle the bolt off the shoulder you are automatically realigning the muzzle with where the animal is and picking your next shot's lead, if necessary, for the desired impact point.
 
I started competetive shooting in 1960, shortly after I received my commission in the Marine Corps. I had been released from active duty to start law school, and would not resume long term active duty until I graduated and was admitted to the bar. While I was in law school, I attended drills with the local Marine Corps Reserve Unit.
I had been thoroughly trained and qualified as Expert with the M-14 rifle, but I had no such rifle at my disposal as a reservist 2nd Lieutenant. Instead, I chose to compete in NRA sponsored matches with a much modified Springfield 03, which sported a target stock, a medium heavy barrel in caliber .30-'06, target sights and a target trigger. With it, I was able to shoot scores which initially qualified my as NRA Expert.
With my Springfield, I was able to compete "across the course", a course of fire which included 10 rounds standing at a range of 200 yards, 10 rounds standing to sitting rapid fire, which meant that I would be standing with a loaded rifle as the targets were exposed. I then had 60 seconds to get into position, fire five shots, reload with a stripper clip, and fire a second five shots, all in a time limit of 60 seconds. Unfired rounds counted as misses. Again the range was 200 yards.
The third stage was fired at 300 yards. Again, shooters remained standing until the targets were exposed, then took their position on the firing line, this time prone. Again, five shots were fired and the rifle reloaded with a stripper clip and the second five rounds were fired, this time at a range of 300 yards.
The fourth stage was fired at a range of 600 yards, in a time limit of 22 minutes, allowing for 2 sighting shots and 20 shots for record. Shooters were allowed to assume their prone position and fire two sighting shots, correcting the sights as needed. They were then allowed 20 minutes to fire 20 shots for record.
In the rapid fire stages, competitors were allowed the same amount of time regardless of whether they were firing the service rifle (M1 or M14) or match rifle, usually a bolt action rifle, but sometimes a M1 or M14 rifle with a non-regulation barrel and non-regulation sights.
Frequent practice sessions with my Springfield rifle allowed me to complete the rapid fire strings with no difficulty. As I gained experience, I gradually changed the equipment I was using, so that my final bolt rifle was a Model 70 Winchester, one of the pre-WW II models, which were especially prized for their smooth action.
I gradually evolved a technique which involved operating the bolt using my fore-finger only to open the action and retract the bolt until it encountered the bolt stop. I closed the bolt with my thumb, so the whole repeating procedure required only two motions.
This practice stood me in good stead in Africa in a few tight situations I found myself in, one involving a Cape buffalo, another a charging rhinoceros and the other a pack of Cape Hunting Dogs.
I was able to rise to the occasion on all three instances because of the hours of practice I had put in on my target rifle and later on my hunting rifles.
 
I started competetive shooting in 1960, shortly after I received my commission in the Marine Corps. I had been released from active duty to start law school, and would not resume long term active duty until I graduated and was admitted to the bar. While I was in law school, I attended drills with the local Marine Corps Reserve Unit.
I had been thoroughly trained and qualified as Expert with the M-14 rifle, but I had no such rifle at my disposal as a reservist 2nd Lieutenant. Instead, I chose to compete in NRA sponsored matches with a much modified Springfield 03, which sported a target stock, a medium heavy barrel in caliber .30-'06, target sights and a target trigger. With it, I was able to shoot scores which initially qualified my as NRA Expert.
With my Springfield, I was able to compete "across the course", a course of fire which included 10 rounds standing at a range of 200 yards, 10 rounds standing to sitting rapid fire, which meant that I would be standing with a loaded rifle as the targets were exposed. I then had 60 seconds to get into position, fire five shots, reload with a stripper clip, and fire a second five shots, all in a time limit of 60 seconds. Unfired rounds counted as misses. Again the range was 200 yards.
The third stage was fired at 300 yards. Again, shooters remained standing until the targets were exposed, then took their position on the firing line, this time prone. Again, five shots were fired and the rifle reloaded with a stripper clip and the second five rounds were fired, this time at a range of 300 yards.
The fourth stage was fired at a range of 600 yards, in a time limit of 22 minutes, allowing for 2 sighting shots and 20 shots for record. Shooters were allowed to assume their prone position and fire two sighting shots, correcting the sights as needed. They were then allowed 20 minutes to fire 20 shots for record.
In the rapid fire stages, competitors were allowed the same amount of time regardless of whether they were firing the service rifle (M1 or M14) or match rifle, usually a bolt action rifle, but sometimes a M1 or M14 rifle with a non-regulation barrel and non-regulation sights.
Frequent practice sessions with my Springfield rifle allowed me to complete the rapid fire strings with no difficulty. As I gained experience, I gradually changed the equipment I was using, so that my final bolt rifle was a Model 70 Winchester, one of the pre-WW II models, which were especially prized for their smooth action.
I gradually evolved a technique which involved operating the bolt using my fore-finger only to open the action and retract the bolt until it encountered the bolt stop. I closed the bolt with my thumb, so the whole repeating procedure required only two motions.
This practice stood me in good stead in Africa in a few tight situations I found myself in, one involving a Cape buffalo, another a charging rhinoceros and the other a pack of Cape Hunting Dogs.
I was able to rise to the occasion on all three instances because of the hours of practice I had put in on my target rifle and later on my hunting rifles.
I’d like to hear more about the cape hunting dog episode. I’ve only seen them in the wild once, in Tanzania. Curious animals, but not aggressive or dangerous to us. They are highly protected there. How did your shooting skills help you in that encounter?
 

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