Lion - stalk vs. bait

[peras]

Steve,
No, I don't suggest that a significant SA farms have wild lions.
The point that I am trying to make is that we have found fresh kills(Gemsbuck) while hunting captive bred lion. My point is that even captive bred lions have the capability of killing for food, which tells me that nature will always find a way. So, not able to become self-sustaining, as you mentioned in your above post. I'm not so sure. I believe that any wild animal will adapt to its needs for survival. Its in their instinct.
I'm not selling a lion hunt here. Just stating facts what we have observed from our time out there.

Marius,we have found the same,it is surprising how quick a captive bred lion goes ferral.This argument on whether these hunts are hunting or shooting will go on forever.I respect each persons opinion on this,personally I find these hunts very exciting.The main thing is to be honest about what one sells,this brings me to the point that Shakari brought up earlier,I also have my doubts about how "wild" some of the lions outside of South Africa are.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Therefore it'll always be a shoot & never a proper hunt & nor will such a shoot ever do a single iota of good for wild lion populations because the one has nothing to do with the other.

Not wanting to get into an argument with you here, but by the same logic this type of hunt or shoot if you prefer will never do a single iota of bad for wild lion populations either, no?

 

[shakari]

Not wanting to get into an argument with you here, but by the same logic this type of hunt or shoot if you prefer will never do a single iota of bad for wild lion populations either, no?

The two populations are entirely different & have absolutely no connection whatsoever with each other so no.

However, I'm firmly convinced that the shooting of captive bred animals is immensely harmful to true (African) sport trophy hunting & that the antis will one day use it as a club to beat us over the head with & to (at least try) to use it to ban ALL African) sport trophy hunting........ In fact, that's already beginning to happen with the Melissa Bachman thing.

I should say that (IMO) an equally large threat are the soppy you tube vids of canned/often obviously drugged lion shoots that so many fidiots post.

 

[peras]

I should say that (IMO) an equally large threat are the soppy you tube vids of canned/often obviously drugged lion shoots that so many fidiots post.

Although I differ with you on a few points,here I must agree totally,too much "hunting porn"gets loaded onto social networks,where we open ourselves up for a hiding.

 

[billc]

I would guess there is outfitters who may do this type of hunt who should not.To me though if you dont like it dont do this kind of hunt.I see no reason for any hunter to bad mouth it though that is what helps the anti hunters.We all stick together they will never get anywhere we fight with each other they win.I am sure if the outfitters hear about a hunt being done illegally they will report it and police themselves as it could hurt there business.Would be nice if we could all hunt so called wild lions but fact is we all can't.It is time we all as hunters realize as hunters we need to stick together and stop judging each other so hard.

 

[spike.t]

Gentleman,
Here is a captive bred lioness hunt(See Captive bred, not Captive or Pen "Raised" as some would refer ) conducted in South Africa just over a month ago. The camera man is Martin Müller. Decide for yourself.

The result:

View attachment 23763


Best Regards,
Marius Goosen

looks like a screwed up bow hunt with crap penetration ..................

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The two populations are entirely different & have absolutely no connection whatsoever with each other so no.

However, I'm firmly convinced that the shooting of captive bred animals is immensely harmful to true (African) sport trophy hunting & that the antis will one day use it as a club to beat us over the head with & to (at least try) to use it to ban ALL African) sport trophy hunting........ In fact, that's already beginning to happen with the Melissa Bachman thing.

I should say that (IMO) an equally large threat are the soppy you tube vids of canned/often obviously drugged lion shoots that so many fidiots post.

I should say that (IMO) an equally large threat are the soppy you tube vids of canned/often obviously drugged lion shoots that so many fidiots post.
Although I differ with you on a few points,here I must agree totally,too much "hunting porn"gets loaded onto social networks,where we open ourselves up for a hiding.

I've seen some of the obviously drugged lion shoots you speak of, and I must agree with you there. There's no place for that. I must say though that we can't lump those who would do this in with all of the operators who conduct raised lion hunts. To do so would then to say all hunters are also poachers because a portion of people out there in fact are not hunting legally.

As to posting of hunting video in general, it's a bit of a two edged sword. If we're to ban any kind of video media, then we must include all of the hunting t.v. shows that we get here at least in the U.S. We must ban also the videos for sale, whether they be Mark Sullivan's (a big hot button) or Craig Boddington's (a man that I'd say most respect).

I'm not so sure this would be a good thing. I can say Craig Boddington on one of the early years of Tracks Across Africa is one of those that inspired me to even think that this though fairly well paid engineer but certainly not rich hunter could in fact make a once in a lifetime trip to Africa. I've now done two trips and not a day goes by that I don't think about my next.

Having said that, I've got to say that I think that RSA hunting takes quite a trashing that I think is undeserved. Many, if not most first timers to Africa do a PG hunt in RSA. Our hunting brothers there deserve a great deal of credit for providing this opportunity to someone other than the lawyer, doctor, big businessman or other such very well paid individuals. They are also responsible for one of the greatest conservation stories and animal recoveries ever known, another fact that often seems lost in our unfenced wild Africa DG only hunting threads.

As such I think it important to not throw the baby out with the bath water as it were with respect to the raised lion hunt issue. Shakari I've read many posts of yours both here and other websites and have learned much from them. Those posts have far more experience behind them than I will ever have. So I don't mean to disrespect you or your wealth of knowledge. But for the prospective first timer, the criticism of RSA lion hunts may have a spillover effect to dissuade people from hunting ever in RSA. That would be detrimental to hunting not only in RSA but the continent as well.

 

[Wheels]

looks like a screwed up bow hunt with crap penetration ..................

It looks to me like a pass through. Right chest to left abdomen or vice versa. Unless she bled out on one side and lade in the blood on her other side.

 

[shakari]

I would guess there is outfitters who may do this type of hunt who should not.To me though if you dont like it dont do this kind of hunt.I see no reason for any hunter to bad mouth it though that is what helps the anti hunters.We all stick together they will never get anywhere we fight with each other they win.I am sure if the outfitters hear about a hunt being done illegally they will report it and police themselves as it could hurt there business.Would be nice if we could all hunt so called wild lions but fact is we all can't.It is time we all as hunters realize as hunters we need to stick together and stop judging each other so hard.

What you appear to be saying is we should all drop our standards to the lowest common denominator......... well fcuk that for a lark Bill. I'll never drop mine.

As for outfitters policing themselves........ don't bet on it. History has proved time & time & time again that there will always be an element that would sell their own Grand Mother for a dollar.

It would indeed be nice if everyone could afford to hunt a wild lion but it'd be equally nice if I could afford a mid 60s Mercedes SL but I can't & I'd never lower myself by buying a soft top Ford Cortina & tell everyone it was a mid 60s Merc SL.

And that's exactly what someone does when they shoot a captive bred lion & puts it in their trophy room.

 

[spike.t]

It looks to me like a pass through. Right chest to left abdomen or vice versa. Unless she bled out on one side and lade in the blood on her other side.

maybe 1 good shot , but there are 2 other arrow shafts sticking out of her, one frontal in her left chest/shoulder and the other her right side front of shoulder in neck joining body. no blood coming out of her mouth i can see,

 

[billc]

No ,not saying you need to drop your standards at all.I am saying dont bash someone who would do the hunt and enjoy it.You don't need to support it or like it but jumping on with the antis that it is not hunting is not good for hunting.We have the same thing here in the states in a way.Guys raise deer put 10 or more 200inch class deer in a thousand acres is it hunting, for someone it is other no.The hunter decides that part.For me it is not but be saying it is not only hurts hunting over all.So I guess I would rather take the hunters side then the anti side.We are all tied together and if one loses we are all going to lose.I think times have changed and not all for the good but we will hurt ourselves more by always fighting with each other.I could only dream of some of the hunts you have done shakari and I am sad that my son will never get those chances either.

 

[Wheels]

maybe 1 good shot , but there are 2 other arrow shafts sticking out of her, one frontal in her left chest/shoulder and the other her right side front of shoulder in neck joining body. no blood coming out of her mouth i can see,

I defer to your expertise. I never noticed the second arrow in her left front chest. If both those arrows didn't make it to the vitals it is poor penetration.

 

[shakari]

Bill,

You'll notice I have the good manners not to attack individual people for shooting a canned lion. All I do is express my honest opinion of the act & those that take part in it & there's a subtle difference........ I haven't for example made a single public statement on the Bachman fiasco that targets or supports her or anyone else involved.

I'd like to think the next generation, including your son will get the chance to hunt wild Africa but I have to say I'm not sure how long the sport will continue in it's present form.

My guess is the antis will use such issues as canned shooting to try to have ALL African sport hunting banned.......... & like other terrorists, they onlt have to win once. We have to win every time & the best way for us to do that is to ALWAYS behave properly & never to give ammunition to the enemy.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

We have to win every time & the best way for us to do that is to ALWAYS behave properly & never to give ammunition to the enemy.

It's hard to disagree with that in many respects. But what is "behaving properly?" The last time I had my home for sale, I had just a couple of trophy heads on the wall. My real estate agent advised me to take them down, I didn't. We had a family that came to see the home, they apparently broke out in tears and my agent gave me an earful for potentially losing a sale because of my awful display of heads. I took them down and eventually sold the home. But I couldn't help get over the idea that I had sold myself out as a hunter just to sell my home.

I now have my current home up for sale and there's a whole bunch more heads on the wall. Should I take them down now that strangers, potentially anti's will be coming into my home in the interest of "behaving properly?" Where do we draw the line Shakari?

 

[Mtgoat]

The anti's will always portray all hunting in the worst possible light and are willing to distort anything they can to work toward their goal of banning all hunting.

 

[Mtgoat]

I now have my current home up for sale and there's a whole bunch more heads on the wall. Should I take them down now that strangers, potentially anti's will be coming into my home in the interest of "behaving properly?" Where do we draw the line Shakari?

It's not selling out, it's business - you do what you have to do to close the deal with terms that are the most favorable to you. That's why people have their houses "staged" regardless of what was in their homes originally. I'm told that one of the things that the staging professionals always do is to get rid of anything that is too personal (like photos of family members).

 

[billc]

Phil I dont look at those people as anti hunters just because they did not like to see animal heads.Dont think you sold out selling your house either by taking them down.Now i would have told your sales agent to kiss my ass and got a new agent though.I work for people all the time who would never kill an animal.I dont rub it in their face the money there paying me will be used to go hunt.I dont think we need to make everyone love hunting we need to just make sure we dont make them hate it enough to become anti hunting.it is just being respectful to everyone who lets you be that way to them.

 

[shakari]

Phil

To me, behaving properly is things like only hunting wild animals & not captive bred etc. Also to think twice before posting things like short clips of just kill shots on you tube because most non hunters simply fail to understand what they're about & by misunderstanding, become anti hunters by default.

Sher Jung wrote;

"The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it".

And that to me is the perfect summary of what true hunting should be.

I've been in the same position with house sales so you have my sympathy........ in my case, I didn't take them down.

 

[PlainJane]

It's hard to disagree with that in many respects. But what is "behaving properly?" The last time I had my home for sale, I had just a couple of trophy heads on the wall. My real estate agent advised me to take them down, I didn't. We had a family that came to see the home, they apparently broke out in tears and my agent gave me an earful for potentially losing a sale because of my awful display of heads. I took them down and eventually sold the home. But I couldn't help get over the idea that I had sold myself out as a hunter just to sell my home.

I now have my current home up for sale and there's a whole bunch more heads on the wall. Should I take them down now that strangers, potentially anti's will be coming into my home in the interest of "behaving properly?" Where do we draw the line Shakari?

In my opinon, if you have a professional and competent Realtor, they will inform the potential buyer about the culture of the seller. Now obviously with an open-house type of situation things can be different, but I believe that one shouldn't remove the trophies as long as they are tastefully displayed and well-groomed. A baboon having lunch or holding a roll of toilet paper defo crosses the line for me, but a well-crafted trophy displayed in an artful and considerate manner are nothing to be hidden. I understand however the need to modify the home for potential buyers, depending on one's location (Boulder, CO) and current market, the home owner/seller has to adjust to the norm. I don't consider removing the trophies selling-out, but just adapting to a tricky market in a difficult area. "When in Rome do as the Romans do, just don't become a Roman."

Just my 2 cents.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well I didn't mean to turn this into a thread about my real estate experiences, I was intending to take a look at the bigger picture. That bigger picture being at what point do we decide that we should refrain from letting the public know we are hunters versus taking the attitude of I don't really give a rat's rear what you (the general public) think?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty damn tired of the PC world we live in. If someone walks into my house and is offended by the tastefully done taxidermy I have on my wall and doesn't like it.....well then that's their problem. I really don't give a crap if they want to buy the house or not. If they don't like the gun cabinet that my brother made for me filled full of rifles, well the same applies.

On the other hand, I'm not particularly looking for a fight. Back before I had kids, my wife and I owned horses. We would ride into the back country of my beloved Idaho on a regular basis. I was quite well known for hopping out of the saddle to pick up the stray pop/beer can or other trash and take it out. Why? Because I was cognizant of the fact that some idiot would presume a hunter left it there and I didn't want our community blamed for it. It certainly wasn't my responsibility to pick up for others, but I did so anyway.

I'm raising two boys now, and I'm equally sure to remind them about doing the right thing to prevent hunters from looking bad and instead making us look good. But damn.....I'm sick of feeling like I should be embarrassed that I'm a hunter and shooter.

So the question still remains, at what point do we say enough is enough, I'm not going to hide that I'm a hunter and I'm not going to be ashamed to say so?