Lee Speed Rifle?

[Rubi_300]

Yes there are many fakes and or reproductions. One of my pet hates is people who think Lee Speed is a model or style rather than simply a patent mark. A great many of the "Lee Speeds" some people rave about are nothing more than military actions which have been sporterised with a degree of style. Often very nicely done, but not an actual Lee Speed. Does it matter? For the collector/historian very much so, for anyone else maybe not.

An example of a non-sporting configuration Lee Speed is on display at the Australian War Memorial. The rifle is marked Lee Speed Patents and was owned by the Government of Western Australia (pre-Federation days). Back in the day, quite a lot of these rifles were sold to colonial governments, militias and target shooters.

View attachment 508209

I believe that in addition to producing complete rifles, BSA also produced Lee Speed actions for the trade. Those actions were sold to various gun makers who would do the stocking up etc.

As shown in Gary's photo, most Lee Speeds had the patent mark on the RH rear receiver ring. Military actions had the Royal Cypher (Crown) in that location. An exception was with LSA rifles where the Lee Speed markings were often on the front receiver ring. If an action has neither the Lee Speed markings or the Royal Cypher, then it is either a commercial action made after expiry of the patents or a sporterisation in which the military markings were scrubbed off for aesthetic purposes.

What are the ways to identify fakes? Also I guess the correct name for the "lee speed" that we are talking about is a BSA no1, no2 or number 3?

 

[nztimb]

Thank you for the great information!! You have clarified a lot of questions I have had about them. The other questions I have after reading are...

What are the differences between the No.1, No.2 and No.3 patterns? I see hey are different prices and have different magazines. Was it just a difference in aesthetics or is there more to it than that?

What is the "charger" on the actions you referred to and what do they do? Is one type of action more reliable/preferred over the other?

Did companies like Westley Richards, W.W. Greener, W.J., etc. do anything other than add their name to the gun? Did they offer engraving or change the wood on the stocks?

Are there any rough numbers on how many of the B.S.A. "lee-speeds" were made?

Was B.S.A. the only manufacturer of these rifles or were their others making the same rifle?

Thank you again for all your information!

From the catalogue
The No. 1 quality rifle had an engine turned full ength rib with fixed 100yd sight plus 200 and 300 filding leaves and a tangent sight from 400 to 1000 yds. Horntip and grip cap and handsomely engraved.

No.2 quality was same except for a plain round barrel

No. 3 quality plain finish, round barrel and no grip caps

I have the 1908 catalogue but it is PDF so have taken screen shots although they are not overly clear.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes there are many fakes and or reproductions. One of my pet hates is people who think Lee Speed is a model or style rather than simply a patent mark. A great many of the "Lee Speeds" some people rave about are nothing more than military actions which have been sporterised with a degree of style. Often very nicely done, but not an actual Lee Speed. Does it matter? For the collector/historian very much so, for anyone else maybe not.

An example of a non-sporting configuration Lee Speed is on display at the Australian War Memorial. The rifle is marked Lee Speed Patents and was owned by the Government of Western Australia (pre-Federation days). Back in the day, quite a lot of these rifles were sold to colonial governments, militias and target shooters.

View attachment 508209

I believe that in addition to producing complete rifles, BSA also produced Lee Speed actions for the trade. Those actions were sold to various gun makers who would do the stocking up etc.

As shown in Gary's photo, most Lee Speeds had the patent mark on the RH rear receiver ring. Military actions had the Royal Cypher (Crown) in that location. An exception was with LSA rifles where the Lee Speed markings were often on the front receiver ring. If an action has neither the Lee Speed markings or the Royal Cypher, then it is either a commercial action made after expiry of the patents or a sporterisation in which the military markings were scrubbed off for aesthetic purposes.

You are absolutely correct that a Lee Speed is technically exactly what you describe. However, in this country at least, a commercial rifle built (or finished and sold) by one of the major UK houses up into the thirties will carry the descriptive name “Lee Speed.” Most of them are Lee Speed actions just like the rifle I posted above. As @Von Gruff notes, the lack of charger slot and the dust cover do indeed make for an elegant rifle.

Again, my rifle.

However, a friend has both a Greener and armed forces collective (CSL) marked commercially made and marketed Enfield sporters that are not Lee Speed marked. Both are from between the wars, and both would be marketed in this country as "Lee Speed" rifles. Interestingly, both rifles have dust covers. Either would be something very elegant to own from that period.

I had assumed the OP’s question was whether anyone was "faking" period Lee Enfield actioned sporters as having been built (or marketed/assembled) by a major gunmaking house. I am unaware of anyone faking such firearms.

 

[Rubi_300]

From the catalogue
The No. 1 quality rifle had an engine turned full ength rib with fixed 100yd sight plus 200 and 300 filding leaves and a tangent sight from 400 to 1000 yds. Horntip and grip cap and handsomely engraved.

No.2 quality was same except for a plain round barrel

No. 3 quality plain finish, round barrel and no grip caps

I have the 1908 catalogue but it is PDF so have taken screen shots although they are not overly clear.

View attachment 508225

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View attachment 508227

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Pretty cool to read about the asbestos packed bands lol. When the big English gun houses got these guns do you know how they "named" them? Such as a Westley Richards No.1 or No.2? Hope that makes sense.

Also I have came across catalogues of Army Navy Coop. BSA speeds, how are these particular rifles finished compared to others?

 

[Rubi_300]

You are absolutely correct that a Lee Speed is technically exactly what you describe. However, in this country at least, a commercial rifle built (or finished and sold) by one of the major UK houses up into the thirties will carry the descriptive name “Lee Speed.” Most of them are Lee Speed actions just like the rifle I posted above. As @Von Gruff notes, the lack of charger slot and the dust cover do indeed make for an elegant rifle.

Again, my rifle.

View attachment 508234

However, a friend has both a Greener and armed forces collective (CSL) marked commercially made and marketed Enfield sporters that are not Lee Speed marked. Both are from between the wars, and both would be marketed in this country as "Lee Speed" rifles. Interestingly, both rifles have dust covers. Either would be something very elegant to own from that period.

I had assumed the OP’s question was whether anyone was "faking" period Lee Enfield actioned sporters as having been built (or marketed/assembled) by a major gunmaking house. I am unaware of anyone faking such firearms.

Do the BSA Lee Speeds say on them which model they are? Also what are the other marking that are typically found on them?

Thanks for the picture! I love the engraving on yours!

 

[nztimb]

Do the BSA Lee Speeds say on them which model they are? Also what are the other marking that are typically found on them?

Thanks for the picture! I love the engraving on yours!

No model designation as the appearance of the barrel differenciates between No 1 and No 2 and No3 has no grip cap of tip

 

[40newton]

I have a Lee Speed that I tried to handload rounds using 180 grain bullets from several makers. Couldn't get it to shoot very well. Finally I was able to buy some Norma 215 grain SPRN bullets and with 45.5 grains of H4350 it shoots about 0.8 inch at 50 yards (with the open sights and old eyes). I also changed the front sight to bring it closer to zero at 50.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[Rubi_300]

I have a Lee Speed that I tried to handload rounds using 180 grain bullets from several makers. Couldn't get it to shoot very well. Finally I was able to buy some Norma 215 grain SPRN bullets and with 45.5 grains of H4350 it shoots about 0.8 inch at 50 yards (with the open sights and old eyes). I also changed the front sight to bring it closer to zero at 50.

What is considered "Normal" accuracy for these rifles? Also I see your an OGCA member, will you be coming to the January show?

 

[Sarg]

Well most or a dam lot have stuffed rusted Cordite burnt out barrels so that doesn't help, next the sights make it hard & not so easy to fit a nice peep on them as proper Speeders aren't machined or drilled for them, bolt peep can work, can't easily mount a scope on the nice Dust Cover models, the later SMLE type or the CLLE where a charger bridge is installed can be fitted with a period scope & I have a old Pecar & Lyman on a couple.

I just get close & then a bit closer again to shoot game with mine, I had a old plain LSA Speeder that had been fitted with a replacement barrel which I shot some game with, I will have a look for pics.

There is a few Goats on the Bush edge there.

I managed to collect a couple.

Also neck shot this Turkey .

This rifle when last I heard was in the NT & has now taken a fair few Buffalo, Scrub Bulls & Pigs .

 

[Rubi_300]

Well most or a dam lot have stuffed rusted Cordite burnt out barrels so that doesn't help, next the sights make it hard & not so easy to fit a nice peep on them as proper Speeders aren't machined or drilled for them, bolt peep can work, can't easily mount a scope on the nice Dust Cover models, the later SMLE type or the CLLE where a charger bridge is installed can be fitted with a period scope & I have a old Pecar & Lyman on a couple.

I just get close & then a bit closer again to shoot game with mine, I had a old plain LSA Speeder that had been fitted with a replacement barrel which I shot some game with, I will have a look for pics.

View attachment 508287
There is a few Goats on the Bush edge there.

I managed to collect a couple.
View attachment 508288

Also neck shot this Turkey .

View attachment 508289

This rifle when last I heard was in the NT & has now taken a fair few Buffalo, Scrub Bulls & Pigs .

Looks like a lot of fun! You're making me antsy to get out on a hunt but unfortunately I can't travel this season, and in Ohio we only get a one week long rifle season for whitetail. That's why I am a bird hunter primarily lol

 

[Sarg]

On another note BSA built Speeder type sporters on the first .303 MR (Magazine Rifle) MKI of 1888-89 before the Lee Metford as we know them, 8 shot straight magazine, screwed on Dust cover, I have missed a couple & sure would like to have one as many don't believe they were even built lol !

I have a Butt stock off one & a Trigger Guard with Magazine, the butt socket on these actions is square.

 

[Sarg]

Ok found a pic of the LSA Speeder with a young eater Buffalo, taken by the new owner .

 

[Red Leg]

Ok found a pic of the LSA Speeder with a young eater Buffalo, taken by the new owner .

View attachment 508293

Love that sight rib! Suspect some young British officer could have dropped those 215 grain solids into a swarm of Dervish infantry at 800 yards.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Birmingham Small Arms Lee Speed in .315 cal (8x50mm R Mannlicher)

 

[Sarg]

View attachment 508351View attachment 508352
Birmingham Small Arms Lee Speed in .315 cal (8x50mm R Mannlicher)

Thank you for posting but I think you got the photos mixed up ?

Never seen any BSA like that, I think it is a IOF .315 made in India but this one is in .22LR by the looks ?

SMLE type action with a No4 type forend reinforcement ?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Thank you for posting but I think you got the photos mixed up ?

Never seen any BSA like that, I think it is a IOF .315 made in India but this one is in .22LR by the looks ?

SMLE type action with a No4 type forend reinforcement ?

It could be. I got this photo from an Indian arms dealer. They’re notorious for being deceptive. I copypasted his description of it. You’re right. The magazine space appears to be too small for an 8x50mm R.