Lee Speed Rifle?

Rubi_300

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Hi everyone!

I have been bitten by the English gun bug and it has bit HARD!

Who on here has a lee speed rifle they would like to share pictures with? Bonus points if it was one retailed by Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, Etc.

I love these rifles and have been trying to learn as much as I can about them, there seems to be so many different variants, and has been hard to piece it all together. Maybe I can find a good thread on here which goes into all the detail on the lee speed rifles and their history.
 
My "Ghost and the Darkness" W.J. Jeffery .303.

gun11.jpg
 
Rubi_300, "Lee Speeds" are not a rarity. Red Leg has shown you a "top of the line" version. Lots of others own "working versions." Von Gruff it is time for you to speak-up.
That's good to know, I've been keeping an eye out for any for sale but have kept coming up empty. I wasn't sure how rare they are especially here in the states. Do you have much experience with them?
 
That's beautiful! Have you taken it on any hunts? Also did you import it yourself or was it already in the states when you got
Shot a doe with it several years ago. That is about it. It is not the most accurate rifle in the gun room, but the nostalgia value is off the charts. This one came out of Rock Island Auction.

One pops up on Guns International or Gun Broker occasionally.
 
Shot a doe with it several years ago. That is about it. It is not the most accurate rifle in the gun room, but the nostalgia value is off the charts. This one came out of Rock Island Auction.

One pops up on Guns International or Gun Broker occasionally.
Are they a gun that is often "faked"? I know when you start getting into guns with famous gun company markings like W.J., Westley Richards or any other big names like that you gotta be careful.
 
Hi everyone!

I have been bitten by the English gun bug and it has bit HARD!

Who on here has a lee speed rifle they would like to share pictures with? Bonus points if it was one retailed by Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, Etc.

I love these rifles and have been trying to learn as much as I can about them, there seems to be so many different variants, and has been hard to piece it all together. Maybe I can find a good thread on here which goes into all the detail on the lee speed rifles and their history.
I too have recently become interested in the Lee Speed rifle! Would love to own one in the collection someday.
 
That's just gorgeous @Red Leg , thanks for sharing.

Would these be able to be scoped?
Only by screwing them up and destroying their collector value. I saw one with period single lever G&H side mount that I am sure worked with the Lyman Alaskan riding in it, but it would never win a beauty contest.
 
Are they a gun that is often "faked"? I know when you start getting into guns with famous gun company markings like W.J., Westley Richards or any other big names like that you gotta be careful.
I don't believe I have ever seen one that was a fake. They really aren't that valuable to warrant that level of work to create one - at least not yet. :unsure: Compared to here, they seem to go for a song on the UK auction sites.
 
I don't believe I have ever seen one that was a fake. They really aren't that valuable to warrant that level of work to create one - at least not yet. :unsure: Compared to here, they seem to go for a song on the UK auction sites.
I am glad to hear they aren't faked, makes buying one a lot less stressful that most older guns. I've came across them online in the UK but haven't ever imported a gun so I'm not sure where to start with that process.

Is there anything I should look for or keep an eye out with as I search for one for sale?
 
BSA Lee Speed.png



There is a misconcetion that the Lee Speed was or is a particular rifle but in reality the name Lee Speed pertains to the rear locking bolt and the detachable magazine with the Patents held by Joseph J. Speed, and not the stock stock style. What we now call the Lee Speed was originally simply called the BSA Sporting Rifle

The Lee-Speed Rifle​

The name "Lee Speed" comes from two designers' names--James Paris Lee, who invented the action that was used in all the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield military rifles---and Joseph Speed, RSAF designer, who took out patents on many of the features we associate with the Lee Enfield series of rifles. The term "Lee Speed" was used for commercial rifles (i.e., non-Government; intended for civilian sales). These rifles were mostly manufactured by the BSA company (who also made Gov't rifles, so they had the machinery in place to make sporting versions very economically), and many are stamped with the BSA logo. However, other companies also sold them, and put their own stamps on them--so you will find some Lee Speed rifles that are marked W.W. Greener, Army & Navy, Manton, etc. The "Lee Speed" was stamped on the rifles to indicate the patent holders The easiest way to tell if it's a commercial vs. Gov't rifle is the markings. Military rifles will have the sovereign's stamp; commercial guns will not.
Patents were held by James Paris Lee (bolt and mag) and by Joseph Speed (mag) and so had to be marked on commercial arms sold to the public.

Lee Speeds were built by BSA and LSA 1890 - 1914. After that the patent expired and was no longer marked on the rifle. So technically, there were no Lee Speeds after 1918, but the name stuck and all factory BSA & LSA sporters got the handle Lee Speed.
There were also volunteer arms available for purchase, full blown military specs, so these are also 'Lee Speeds' but usually don't get called by that nick name.

The original incarnation of the most well known of all British service rifles was the Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Metford, adopted in 1888 just as several other major powers were adopting nitrocellulose small bore cartridges and new magazine rifles. It was named, in British convention of the era, for the bolt action of Canadian gun designer James Paris Lee and the rifling design of William Ellis Metford. Lee's bolt action design had its antecedents in his prior Model 1879 and Remington-Lee 1885 rifles for the United States Navy, but the design made for the British was a significant improvement over these and featured a 10-round box magazine fed by an en bloc charger, offering unheard of firepower. Metford's gently-rounded polygonal rifling pattern had been a mainstay of the military-match world for almost two decades (notably in the Gibbs-Farquharson-Metford and Deeley-Edge-Metford rifles) and was regarded by many experts as being superior in accuracy and minimizing blackpowder fouling when compared to Alexander Henry's angular rifling pattern.

The Lee-Speed resulted from design improvements introduced by Joseph J. Speed, a manager and later Superintendent of the Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF). Among these were the safety lever on the bolt and alterations to the magazine to incorporate a 10-round detachable box. Speed's design improvements became standard on the Lee-Metford and later Lee-Enfield rifles, but the rifles produced by the Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) factory for commercial sale were often named Lee-Speed in recognition of Joseph Speed's innovations rather than Lee-Metford, even though the Metford rifling was most typically used in sporting arms even after it was superceded by the Enfield rifling pattern in the military rifles in 1895 to improve barrel life with nitrocellulose propellant (it was concluded, apparently, that the rate and volume of fire for sporting arms did not pose this concern).


"BSA made such rifles from 1892 until at least the 1930s, possibly (but unlikely) even later. The sporting versions were built on the early, pre-charger bridge Lee Metford/Lee Enfield actions, the bolt cover giving them a very sleek and elegant appearance. Later sporters were offered on the charger-bridged MkIII actions


Beezer_sporter.jpg
 
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this is a very informative link
 

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Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us Gary! Very interesting!
 
View attachment 508187


There is a misconcetion that the Lee Speed was or is a particular rifle but in reality the name Lee Speed pertains to the rear locking bolt and the detachable magazine with the Patents held by Joseph J. Speed, and not the stock stock style. What we now call the Lee Speed was originally simply called the BSA Sporting Rifle

The Lee-Speed Rifle​

The name "Lee Speed" comes from two designers' names--James Paris Lee, who invented the action that was used in all the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield military rifles---and Joseph Speed, RSAF designer, who took out patents on many of the features we associate with the Lee Enfield series of rifles. The term "Lee Speed" was used for commercial rifles (i.e., non-Government; intended for civilian sales). These rifles were mostly manufactured by the BSA company (who also made Gov't rifles, so they had the machinery in place to make sporting versions very economically), and many are stamped with the BSA logo. However, other companies also sold them, and put their own stamps on them--so you will find some Lee Speed rifles that are marked W.W. Greener, Army & Navy, Manton, etc. The "Lee Speed" was stamped on the rifles to indicate the patent holders The easiest way to tell if it's a commercial vs. Gov't rifle is the markings. Military rifles will have the sovereign's stamp; commercial guns will not.
Patents were held by James Paris Lee (bolt and mag) and by Joseph Speed (mag) and so had to be marked on commercial arms sold to the public.

Lee Speeds were built by BSA and LSA 1890 - 1914. After that the patent expired and was no longer marked on the rifle. So technically, there were no Lee Speeds after 1918, but the name stuck and all factory BSA & LSA sporters got the handle Lee Speed.
There were also volunteer arms available for purchase, full blown military specs, so these are also 'Lee Speeds' but usually don't get called by that nick name.

The original incarnation of the most well known of all British service rifles was the Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Metford, adopted in 1888 just as several other major powers were adopting nitrocellulose small bore cartridges and new magazine rifles. It was named, in British convention of the era, for the bolt action of Canadian gun designer James Paris Lee and the rifling design of William Ellis Metford. Lee's bolt action design had its antecedents in his prior Model 1879 and Remington-Lee 1885 rifles for the United States Navy, but the design made for the British was a significant improvement over these and featured a 10-round box magazine fed by an en bloc charger, offering unheard of firepower. Metford's gently-rounded polygonal rifling pattern had been a mainstay of the military-match world for almost two decades (notably in the Gibbs-Farquharson-Metford and Deeley-Edge-Metford rifles) and was regarded by many experts as being superior in accuracy and minimizing blackpowder fouling when compared to Alexander Henry's angular rifling pattern.

The Lee-Speed resulted from design improvements introduced by Joseph J. Speed, a manager and later Superintendent of the Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF). Among these were the safety lever on the bolt and alterations to the magazine to incorporate a 10-round detachable box. Speed's design improvements became standard on the Lee-Metford and later Lee-Enfield rifles, but the rifles produced by the Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) factory for commercial sale were often named Lee-Speed in recognition of Joseph Speed's innovations rather than Lee-Metford, even though the Metford rifling was most typically used in sporting arms even after it was superceded by the Enfield rifling pattern in the military rifles in 1895 to improve barrel life with nitrocellulose propellant (it was concluded, apparently, that the rate and volume of fire for sporting arms did not pose this concern).


"BSA made such rifles from 1892 until at least the 1930s, possibly (but unlikely) even later. The sporting versions were built on the early, pre-charger bridge Lee Metford/Lee Enfield actions, the bolt cover giving them a very sleek and elegant appearance. Later sporters were offered on the charger-bridged MkIII actions


View attachment 508186
Thank you for the great information!! You have clarified a lot of questions I have had about them. The other questions I have after reading are...

What are the differences between the No.1, No.2 and No.3 patterns? I see hey are different prices and have different magazines. Was it just a difference in aesthetics or is there more to it than that?

What is the "charger" on the actions you referred to and what do they do? Is one type of action more reliable/preferred over the other?

Did companies like Westley Richards, W.W. Greener, W.J., etc. do anything other than add their name to the gun? Did they offer engraving or change the wood on the stocks?

Are there any rough numbers on how many of the B.S.A. "lee-speeds" were made?

Was B.S.A. the only manufacturer of these rifles or were their others making the same rifle?

Thank you again for all your information!
 
this is a very informative link
Thank you! Do you have any lee-speeds yourself? Do you care to show any pictures of your collection?
 
View attachment 508187


There is a misconcetion that the Lee Speed was or is a particular rifle but in reality the name Lee Speed pertains to the rear locking bolt and the detachable magazine with the Patents held by Joseph J. Speed, and not the stock stock style. What we now call the Lee Speed was originally simply called the BSA Sporting Rifle

The Lee-Speed Rifle​

The name "Lee Speed" comes from two designers' names--James Paris Lee, who invented the action that was used in all the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield military rifles---and Joseph Speed, RSAF designer, who took out patents on many of the features we associate with the Lee Enfield series of rifles. The term "Lee Speed" was used for commercial rifles (i.e., non-Government; intended for civilian sales). These rifles were mostly manufactured by the BSA company (who also made Gov't rifles, so they had the machinery in place to make sporting versions very economically), and many are stamped with the BSA logo. However, other companies also sold them, and put their own stamps on them--so you will find some Lee Speed rifles that are marked W.W. Greener, Army & Navy, Manton, etc. The "Lee Speed" was stamped on the rifles to indicate the patent holders The easiest way to tell if it's a commercial vs. Gov't rifle is the markings. Military rifles will have the sovereign's stamp; commercial guns will not.
Patents were held by James Paris Lee (bolt and mag) and by Joseph Speed (mag) and so had to be marked on commercial arms sold to the public.

Lee Speeds were built by BSA and LSA 1890 - 1914. After that the patent expired and was no longer marked on the rifle. So technically, there were no Lee Speeds after 1918, but the name stuck and all factory BSA & LSA sporters got the handle Lee Speed.
There were also volunteer arms available for purchase, full blown military specs, so these are also 'Lee Speeds' but usually don't get called by that nick name.

The original incarnation of the most well known of all British service rifles was the Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Metford, adopted in 1888 just as several other major powers were adopting nitrocellulose small bore cartridges and new magazine rifles. It was named, in British convention of the era, for the bolt action of Canadian gun designer James Paris Lee and the rifling design of William Ellis Metford. Lee's bolt action design had its antecedents in his prior Model 1879 and Remington-Lee 1885 rifles for the United States Navy, but the design made for the British was a significant improvement over these and featured a 10-round box magazine fed by an en bloc charger, offering unheard of firepower. Metford's gently-rounded polygonal rifling pattern had been a mainstay of the military-match world for almost two decades (notably in the Gibbs-Farquharson-Metford and Deeley-Edge-Metford rifles) and was regarded by many experts as being superior in accuracy and minimizing blackpowder fouling when compared to Alexander Henry's angular rifling pattern.

The Lee-Speed resulted from design improvements introduced by Joseph J. Speed, a manager and later Superintendent of the Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF). Among these were the safety lever on the bolt and alterations to the magazine to incorporate a 10-round detachable box. Speed's design improvements became standard on the Lee-Metford and later Lee-Enfield rifles, but the rifles produced by the Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) factory for commercial sale were often named Lee-Speed in recognition of Joseph Speed's innovations rather than Lee-Metford, even though the Metford rifling was most typically used in sporting arms even after it was superceded by the Enfield rifling pattern in the military rifles in 1895 to improve barrel life with nitrocellulose propellant (it was concluded, apparently, that the rate and volume of fire for sporting arms did not pose this concern).


"BSA made such rifles from 1892 until at least the 1930s, possibly (but unlikely) even later. The sporting versions were built on the early, pre-charger bridge Lee Metford/Lee Enfield actions, the bolt cover giving them a very sleek and elegant appearance. Later sporters were offered on the charger-bridged MkIII actions


View attachment 508186

Did you write this article @Von Gruff ?

I know a few things about Lee Speeds/BSA Sporters myself & I believe my write up on building a "Lee Speed Fake" helped put @Von Gruff on the road to building some for him self, even supplying a BSA action & some .405 cases, he made a very nice job on them to ?
 
Yes there are many fakes and or reproductions. One of my pet hates is people who think Lee Speed is a model or style rather than simply a patent mark. A great many of the "Lee Speeds" some people rave about are nothing more than military actions which have been sporterised with a degree of style. Often very nicely done, but not an actual Lee Speed. Does it matter? For the collector/historian very much so, for anyone else maybe not.

An example of a non-sporting configuration Lee Speed is on display at the Australian War Memorial. The rifle is marked Lee Speed Patents and was owned by the Government of Western Australia (pre-Federation days). Back in the day, quite a lot of these rifles were sold to colonial governments, militias and target shooters.

1672347694644.png


I believe that in addition to producing complete rifles, BSA also produced Lee Speed actions for the trade. Those actions were sold to various gun makers who would do the stocking up etc.

As shown in Gary's photo, most Lee Speeds had the patent mark on the RH rear receiver ring. Military actions had the Royal Cypher (Crown) in that location. An exception was with LSA rifles where the Lee Speed markings were often on the front receiver ring. If an action has neither the Lee Speed markings or the Royal Cypher, then it is either a commercial action made after expiry of the patents or a sporterisation in which the military markings were scrubbed off for aesthetic purposes.
 
Did you write this article @Von Gruff ?

I know a few things about Lee Speeds/BSA Sporters myself & I believe my write up on building a "Lee Speed Fake" helped put @Von Gruff on the road to building some for him self, even supplying a BSA action & some .405 cases, he made a very nice job on them to ?
No it is a collection of info from various sources. Much of my early information and hands on came from a friend (Euan) who has a good collection of various rifle types with a "few" genuine Lee Speeds among them and where I got my stock pattern from. The various custom makers who surced the BSA Lee Speed actions had thier own stock patterns within a general theme as a standard offering and of course being custom makes would make stocks to suit individual clients.
I have had the pleasure of building a number of rifles in the Lee Speed style from the MLE (Magazine Lee Enfield actions) and of doing stock work on a fair few others with @Sarg and Euan among them.
There has been actions chambered for the 303, 375/303 and 270/303 among them

This is a 303 and a 400 (BSA action from @Sarg) that I built for myself.
Photo2010.jpg


I traded into a 5 shot magazine for the 303
Photo2415.jpg

Photo2417.jpg


A few stocks in the making or finishing

and you can see the different styles fro
4 Lee Speeds.png


A 303 with the barrel to be rebored to 375.
Bills Lee Speed.png


Another in 303 ready to return to the owner for the metalwork to be gone over.
Photo2901.jpg


A 270/303 and companion knife
IMG_20180925_105705.jpg
 

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