Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[HankBuck]

No, I do make the distinction, but when hundreds of buffalo are relocated from a breeding area in RSA, or no matter from where, to Mozambique, the difference with farming is not that great.

@grand veneur - does a “Fence” make a difference or distinction? Is there a difference between “raising” animals in an enclosure or captive breeding program and then Releasing into the Wild —- a completely UNfenced area - where they may roam wherever they want, and are exposed to all other dangers of the wild - predators etc.. In the U.S. most all Farm bred & raised Deer are ALWAYS hunted behind a fence, even if sold to another Outfitter - they are released into a High Fence area. I’m not certain but would think that whitetail deer, released into Wild UNfenced areas would survive the elements and predators about the same as wild deer and perhaps pass on their carefully managed genetics but Never with the same results achieved behind Fenced in areas. A Fence is a critical part of captive breeding programs and consistent game populations. I understand why if your business and livelihood depends on Hunter Success - a High Fence is the best way to make money and have Hunters consistently go home with “trophies”.

 

[HankBuck]

@grand veneur , I think you are confusing managed and farmed. The millions of whitetail deer in the US are managed through bag limits, sex restrictions, seasons and in some cases size. There are some farmed whitetail but most are on wide open areas where their only impediments are how far their legs will take them but they are managed.
In a population that is not managed they won’t be around for long, the American bison, in Africa the quagga and blaubok are examples

@Hunt anything - what are you referring to regarding “farmed whitetail” …”where their only impediments are how far their legs will take them”? Do you mean farmed whitetail with NO fences?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

But they are farmers, they have just converted from grain or beef to kudu et al. They have to make a return on investment. Their operations are cash generating first, conservation is a nice byproduct of it happens. You may not want to participate, as I don’t, but what is actually wrong with it as long as it is represented honestly?

I understand a business needs to be profitable. No argument there whatsoever. Game farming started in RSA in the 60s(?) or 70s(?)? It has been a conservation success story for the most part. Farmers saw the money to be made and that’s fine. I am a capitalist. RSA is largely self sufficient in the meat for human consumption department. Maybe some of them should’ve stayed farmers and RSA could have zero imports and bump their export numbers up but I get it. They need to grow more wheat too if they have any good soil that isn’t being utilized. Farming is hard and not as lucrative.

If I start a business but I can’t make it work without resorting to unethical practices then I probably shouldn’t be in business. That’s how I view it. Outright put and take is unethical and bad conservation. Privately owned wildlife are definitely a commodity of sorts but when they are viewed as nothing more than a commodity therein lies the rub. The reduction of an animal to nothing more than an object leads to bad conservation.

We say hunters actually care about the animals we hunt whereas the antis are just feigning care. Good conservation shows actual care for the wildlife we hunt. Put and take is not good conservation.

 

[grand veneur]

@grand veneur - does a “Fence” make a difference or distinction? Is there a difference between “raising” animals in an enclosure or captive breeding program and then Releasing into the Wild —- a completely UNfenced area - where they may roam wherever they want, and are exposed to all other dangers of the wild - predators etc.. In the U.S. most all Farm bred & raised Deer are ALWAYS hunted behind a fence, even if sold to another Outfitter - they are released into a High Fence area. I’m not certain but would think that whitetail deer, released into Wild UNfenced areas would survive the elements and predators about the same as wild deer and perhaps pass on their carefully managed genetics but Never with the same results achieved behind Fenced in areas. A Fence is a critical part of captive breeding programs and consistent game populations. I understand why if your business and livelihood depends on Hunter Success - a High Fence is the best way to make money and have Hunters consistently go home with “trophies”.

Such kind of hunting are not my favorites, but I am not against hunting farms and everything that might be associated with them, including Put and Take if for various reasons it is absolutely necessary. I only made the few comments because I often have the feeling that when some hunters talk about hunting in open areas or the wild they don't have the reality in mind.

 

[WAB]

I understand a business needs to be profitable. No argument there whatsoever. Game farming started in RSA in the 60s(?) or 70s(?)? It has been a conservation success story for the most part. Farmers saw the money to be made and that’s fine. I am a capitalist. RSA is largely self sufficient in the meat for human consumption department. Maybe some of them should’ve stayed farmers and RSA could have zero imports and bump their export numbers up but I get it. They need to grow more wheat too if they have any good soil that isn’t being utilized. Farming is hard and not as lucrative.

If I start a business but I can’t make it work without resorting to unethical practices then I probably shouldn’t be in business. That’s how I view it. Outright put and take is unethical and bad conservation. Privately owned wildlife are definitely a commodity of sorts but when they are viewed as nothing more than a commodity therein lies the rub. The reduction of an animal to nothing more than an object leads to bad conservation.

We say hunters actually care about the animals we hunt whereas the antis are just feigning care. Good conservation shows actual care for the wildlife we hunt. Put and take is not good conservation.

I guess growing up a farmer I just see it differently. I don’t see an impala any different than a goat. The farmer can cull it and sell the meat, or get a hunter to pay for it and sell the meat. I suspect that most farms do both. Like I said, it’s not something I care to do, but I see no ethical problem in doing it.

 

[grand veneur]

I read some in it.

Game Ranch Management by J. du P Bothma | Fact and Fiction

ISBN: 9780627021237 / 0627021239 - Game Ranch Management by J. du P Bothma [1996]

www.factandfiction.co.za

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I guess growing up a farmer I just see it differently. I don’t see an impala any different than a goat. The farmer can cull it and sell the meat, or get a hunter to pay for it and sell the meat. I suspect that most farms do both. Like I said, it’s not something I care to do, but I see no ethical problem in doing it.

That’s fair. I respect your opinion. I never did any cash crop farming (well pecans but that’s different and wasn’t in an orchard setting) but we’ve had livestock (primarily beef cattle) all my life and cattle paid my parents house payment every year along with supplementing income.

 

[Hunt anything]

@Hunt anything - what are you referring to regarding “farmed whitetail” …”where their only impediments are how far their legs will take them”? Do you mean farmed whitetail with NO fences?

I was unclear, genetically modified whitetail that are basically sold by the inch and behind high fence. The wild whitetail have no restrictions, and no fences where they move.
My poor typing skills can’t keep up with my wandering mind.

By the way a really don’t have a problem with the genetic practices but it’s just not for me.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Best quote of the interview. "You can be a purist and die of hunger".

 

[Rare Breed]

I thought some of you might find this interesting and informative. I think my opinions on put and take are well documented here. I wouldn’t hunt on an operation like this. The trophy would have no value to me, but I appreciate his honesty about how he operates. I see too often here it’s downplayed to only a “few bad operators” to downplay how common these practices are and the phrase self sustaining is used very flexibly for better marketing. You can listen for yourself if interested. I’d suggest starting at interview at 4 minutes to avoid the commentary.

Thank you!!! I am a business executive. Finally honesty not hypocrisy has been stated and I 100% agree with the honesty of this video. The math and logic is undesputable!!!

 

[375Fox]

On a lot of things I normally agree with you. With respect I disagree with you on this subject.

What you said is basically, I would argue, the whole SA wildlife model. A lot of SA farms ( not all) restock, some more frequent than others. If it was not the case the price would be way higher and because of that less hunters. Also lot less profitable businesses I would think and less demand. That is the economical argument.

Those smaller areas that now have game animals would be farms, as they were before. Populations would be smaller for certain species. As someone who loves nature and wildlife I rather see game farms and private reserves than cattle. Why wildlife is such a big factor is because they have commercialized it.

That does not mean everything goes and that canned hunts are ok. But restocking animals and shooting them in a pen is different for me.

You might like this. I thought this was one of best podcasts I’ve ever listened. I listened to this podcast a while ago so I can remember exact details. He however has a very different perspective than what was in the video I posted at start of this thread. I think you have choice high volume low cost or lower volume and high cost. All farms add genetics. The fence makes it necessary unfortunately, but the put and take or sustainable harvest model is a choice.

 

[375Fox]

Didn’t realize buffalo were transplanted to Mozambique from South Africa, but the genetics of the buffalo I’ve seen in South Africa and the ones in Mozambique don’t look the same to me.

I’m sure they have at times to restock depleted areas. The difference is once they have a herd it needs managed from then on. The costs to bring in more are uneconomical.

 

[375Fox]

Thank you!!! I am a business executive. Finally honesty not hypocrisy has been stated and I 100% agree with the honesty of this video. The math and logic is undesputable!!!

There are several things I can dispute about the model. It isn’t for me. However, I can’t fault someone for being honest how they operate especially as clearly as he laid it out. If someone is ok with that hunt knowing that information I can’t really argue with them. It does bother me though when hunters will argue here these practices are uncommon and only done by a few bad operators, when it is common. I see ads here (especially for buffalo) that always state self sustaining when they are clearly not. I remember an ad that said 150 self sustaining buffalo on the property and 80 were hard bossed bulls. Maybe there are a few cows and the herd could be self sustaining but that management style clearly isn’t and brings in a lot of bulls. I really can’t criticize outfitters that are honest about how they operate up front. A hunter can decide for themselves, but dishonest marketing does bother me.

 

[Vintageguy]

@375Fox - thanks for posting this video, very insightful into the business end of hunting in SA. I thought the man relaying how he operates his Camp was candid, detailed, and seemed very comfortable with sharing “how” a high fence operation works - including describing what ‘self sustaining’ really means. His description often used the phrase “client experiance” and providing what his clients specificly wanted: a long hard walking spot & stalk or shooting a “crocodile in a bath tub”. He seems to work hard to provide his clients with an honest hunt and does not pretend or represent it to be anything that it isn’t. I would enjoy spending time with and talking to a guy like him but have No interest in participating the types of hunts he provides. He seems open & honest and I certainly respect that.
The SA high fence hunts remind me of many well operated “put & take” pheasant hunts - the birds are Not Wild but the hunting “experience” is very similar to a wild pheasant hunt Except — the birds are ALWAYS there, in high numbers, and success rates extremely consistent. I do Not consider going after pen raised birds (or other terms used “supplemented, liberated etc.”) to be real hunting but it is Great for training your dog, improving your wing shooting, and very enjoyable. The very best put & take Bird hunting closely replicates real hunting - good cover, birds that fly well, large tracts of scenic cover, good dogs, nice lodge & food = very pleasant experience….Similar to real hunting for wild birds. Good post & Video !!

Don’t be fooled into thinking put and take pheasant hunts are all advertised as such for the same reasons. No property in the Midwest is going to sustain hunting party after party limiting out week after week without stocking. They just won’t admit it and they won’t have holding pens about to give it away but I know for a fact many get thousands of birds released onto them. My friend hauls thousands every year to all the famous pheasant states and lodges from the small “we’re just a family farm” types to very expensive luxury lodges.
We hunted farms of friends and if we showed up after the holidays when they had family in shooting for a week, it was slim pickings indeed. But they would show us the pictures of the piles of birds from two weeks back.
My buddy loves to ask “how many fellas you think drive two days to get to the Dakotas to shoot wild birds when in fact they are shooting birds pen raised in Carolina?”

 

[375Fox]

Best quote of the interview. "You can be a purist and die of hunger".

Or worst depending how you look at it. To me it means you have to keep pace with other outfitters employing similar practices or fall behind. One of the purists he mentioned is very successful and a sponsor here.

 

[HankBuck]

Yea I probably should have reworded that post or explained my thought more thoroughly. I’m just curious about what drama is going on in PHASA and whether or not this interview was a response or publicity stunt to or in regards to said drama. At least he’s honest. I have no interest in hunting that type of operation (his plains game model) but I find it far less egregious than if someone buys a mature (or immature) trophy animal and releases it that week for a hunter (like he apparently will do with a croc….). In a high fence setting there must (obviously) be an addition of animals from time to time for genetic health. Supplementation for genetics on a periodic basis is not exactly what I consider to be “put and take”. Supplementation on a seasonal basis, surpassing the carrying capacity of a property, is. Bringing in animals to specifically accommodate a high volume of hunters to make your business work is not what I would call good conservation or ethical. He basically freely states that his business model relies on a number of hunters that his property size cannot support. That tells me that either you need a larger property (honestly 4k acres is tiny when you have the assistance of a vehicle and as a previously shared chart shows is not quite satisfactory for a lot of species) or you need to reconsider your business model and make adjustments. I do not see the financial considerations as a justification for put and take. Yes, a business must obviously be financially viable but if that viability relies on either unethical practices or bad conservation (or both) then that business or business model should be ceased or allowed to fail. Thankfully there are RSA operators who do not operate via put and take and rely on good conservation and sustainable practices. Choose wisely

@Wishfulthinker580 - I’ve been told by several PHs both from SA and in TZ that “Every” operator in SA does some “supplementing” or Put & Take (buying and Adding game animals) on their properties. I don’t have first hand knowledge but it makes sense to see that would be required and especially to make any consistent profit. That is Not to imply they do anything deceitful but just don’t advertise how much it’s done. Some operators, like the person in the Video posted, are very open about how they run their business — full disclosure to any client that wants to know the details and reasons behind them.
Also most still do their best to offer a quality experiance consistent with Client expectations.

 

[DieJager]

I’m sure they have at times to restock depleted areas. The difference is once they have a herd it needs managed from then on. The costs to bring in more are uneconomical.

My holiday officially started today. So definitely going to listen to this podcast in the next couple of weeks. Hopefully with some good weather, a nice drink and possibly a great cigar. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Hookboy88]

I have a very close friend who I won’t mention that sales hunts worldwide and is very well known. Unfortunately he has told me several stories of people looking for a world class animal and prefer it to be like the “Crocodile in a tub.” Difference is he absolutely refuses to attach his name to those kind of hunts, no matter how much money he loses out on by doing so..
but everyone is different I suppose.

 

[Hunt anything]

On the original video the PHASA leader mentioned ear tags. I’ve been on 6 farms in the Eastern Cape , 2 in the Limpopo and 3 in the Northwest province. I’ve yet to see an ear tag. I don’t doubt they are used but I just haven’t seen them.

 

[revturbo9967]

Exactly. Put and take may not be your thing, it’s certainly not mine, but what in the world is wrong with raising an animal to harvest it? You may validly question calling it hunting in extreme cases, but I just can’t see the difference vs a chicken or a cow.

I don’t care what so ever for shooting emails in a pen or releasing animals to be shot into and area calling it self sustaining. I have an issues where these outfits are attempting to dupe a new hunter who doesn’t really know. My father in law had no idea there were fences until he got there. He was pissed but made the most of it.