I need a "Use Enough Gun" Gun. Suggestions?

[Rare Breed]

My rant on buffalo cartridges.

I know that I sound like a broken record, however I have found that the 375 with the best bullets is a poor and dangerous cape buffalo killer.

Yes, most hunters and PH's say that the the 375 is "Good enough" to "Perfect." My opinion is that people like the 375 because they are afraid of the recoil of proper buffalo rifle like the .416, .458, .470 and .500.

Much of the fuss over recoil is mental. The fact is that most any man or woman can learn to shoot the 500 NE accurately and enjoy it, ask my 135 pound wife. ( Ok, she weighed that when she used to hunt, It's a bit more now.)

Lots of men and women enjoy shooting 25 - 50 rounds of heavy 12 gauge goose loads when the geese are coming in on a cold morning. A heavy goose load in a light shotgun kicks more than regular weight 357HH.

Why are hunters afraid to fire a couple of rounds from a 458 WM when their adrenalin is flowing in a close encounter with a deadly cape buffalo? I don't get it.

I know the 375 fans will jump up and down and say "I use the 375 for cape buffalo because it works well, not because I am afraid of the recoil of a big bore." Yeah right! I believe you.

Look at it this way:

1. A wounded cape buffalo can be dangerous.
2. What is the recommended shooting distance when you are taking your first shot on a cape buffalo?
3. How far does a cape buffalo often run after he is hit in the shoulder with a .375 even with a good bullet, which most people don't use as they would rather hunt buffalo with cheap/poor bullet like a Hornady?

I have hunted cape buffalo with .375 HH, .50-110 Winchester and .577 NE. I have been involved in three buffalo charges, one of them was a buffalo that I personally shot poorly. Yes, I have strong opinions on this subject.

Also, what is all this nonsense about shooting 10-20 rounds off the bench with a cape buffalo rifle in one session. What is that for? Do you actually hunt cape buffalo with a bench rest?

Big bores hurt when fired off the bench and cause people to develop a flinch. ( A flinch is not helpful when you are shooting a cape buffalo.) The bench shooting of big bores is for load development and sighting in, that just takes a few rounds and here is some ways to make it easier.
- Place a big pad/weight between the butt pad and your shoulder. (Don't use a led sled they tend to
crack stocks and/or pound the recoil lug into the stock damaging it.)
- Use a standing type bench rest or set enough blocks under your rifle rest to raise the rifle rest high
above the bench. This enables you to sit upright at the bench, reducing the felt recoil. It really does
help.

Once you have a decent load developed and sighted in, do all of your practicing off of shooting sticks.
I like to practice off the sticks with a .22 mostly or dry firing indoors at home. ( Big bores cost too much for me to shoot paper with. That's just me.)

Of course I don't make any friends when I do my "Famous .375 rant". .....oh well. I think that am justified, the 375 cartridge has been known to get cape buffalo hunters in trouble including injured or dead which would ruin the whole day.

my humble opinion if a bolt action nothing beats the 404J. yes I sold my two 375’s and love my 404J. Of course I am first and foremost a DR man

 

[sgt_zim]

The recoil of the Rem is going to be less than the Rigby

They'll both be in the 55 - 70 ft lb neighborhood. At that level, I don't think it really matters too much

 

[Happy Myles]

I own and have used both the 416 Rem and the 416 Rigby the recoil is about the same. I prefer the Rigby. Just my opinion they both work just fine.

 

[coreydb]

Keep what you have; it is enough gun to effectively kill all DG. JUST pay attention to bullet placement

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

375 H&H has killed a lot of DG. That said, I added a .450 Dakota to hunt elephant. I also like the idea that the Dakota holds 5 rounds (4+1). Looking forward to using it.

 

[375Fox]

375 H&H has killed a lot of DG. That said, I added a .450 Dakota to hunt elephant. I also like the idea that the Dakota holds 5 rounds (4+1). Looking forward to using it.

I did the exact same except 450 Rigby. It bought me a few extra seconds when I slightly missed brain on elephant. I think it’ll be a long time before I use it again though. I find my scoped 375 a better buffalo and all around choice.

 

[DLSJR]

@Azklmsr , I’ve used a 458 Winchester, 470 NE, 416 Hoffman (same as Remington) & 375 H&H on various dangerous game hunts. These days, I only use the 375 & 416. I find them to be plenty for whatever I’m hunting and I’d hunt elephant bulls again with either one. When my son was getting a rifle for dangerous game, I told him I’d buy him a 375 H&H. He wanted a 458 Lott, so I told him he could buy whatever he wanted, but if I was buying it, he was getting a 375 H&H.

My point is, for a client hunter a 375 H&H is a great rifle. A 416 is as well but not everyone likes the greater recoil. I don’t find it objectionable and I prefer it when hunting buffalo or hippo. When I go on my next elephant hunt, I won’t hesitate to use my 416, and my 375 will be the 2nd rifle in my case.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

You’re going to have a great hunt with Dieter. He’s awesome to be around and hunt with. Same with Nico and Glenn.

You have a 375 H&H, if you want bigger my advice is to step into something of .45 or larger. The .404 Jeff is a great caliber but IMO it’s not that much of a step up from the 375 you own. I personally feel the same way with the 416’s, but there’s something nostalgic about a 416 Rigby. I personally would avoid the Weatherby calibers since they can be a challenge to resell, and I say this as a diehard 257Wby fan. You can also kill everything you’ve named without any issue. I’ve almost completed the Dangerous 7 and Tiny 10 with the same M70 375 Rifle.


Do you want a bolt gun or a double? What’s your budget? Whats your timeline?
458WM, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 505 Gibs, 505 Jeff for bolt guns
450/400, 450 (or No2) NE, 475 (or No2) NE, 470 NE, 500 NE, 500/416 NE, 500/450 NE, 500/465 NE, 577 NE, 600 NE are some of the Double Rifle options

 

[Fordy]

Gday 375fox

Here’s an interesting article you can read.

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

Thanks for that & some very good information in there & good replies to it

The conclusion part really sums it up well “ use enough gun but not more than you can handle “
Yes I like that a lot

has anyone done any figures /percentages on a 2 holes vrs one ??? On this forum or has seen it somewhere as that’s a interesting observation that was seen & ( kinda goes with that thread i think) even with the same bullet it shows that 2 holes killed the critter more consistently than only 1 hole in the impact to tip distance of the critter of around 25/35% less distance traveled after impact going to the 2 holes

This was taken across multiple angles on critters @ approximately the same impact speed ( within 200fps )
my base line was
3x broadside
3x quarter too
4x quarter away ( 2 up left side 2up right )

Cheers

 

[Altitude sickness]

For killing purposes only. An exit hole is always better than not. I can not think of a situation where an exit hole puts less blood on the ground than one hole. The exit is usually twice the diameter of entrance. If not using a solid.

 

[DLSJR]

For killing purposes only. An exit hole is always better than not. I can not think of a situation where an exit hole puts less blood on the ground than one hole. The exit is usually twice the diameter of entrance. If not using a solid.

Thank you!

For years I’ve been debating this with the crowd who swears that ‘shock’ is what kills animals. What actually kills animals is organ destruction, blood loss and pneumo-thorax, ideally bilateral pneumo-thorax. You get that by two holes in the chest cavity to collapse the lungs. An exit hole is ALWAYS better, especially so when hunting dangerous game.

 

[Zvikomborero Mudzamba]

Howdy Gents/Ladies,

I'm set for my 1st safari next June. Dieter Prinsloo at Mattanjasafaris has graciously agreed to teach me to hunt DG along with a few others in Limpopo next year, placing him in same courageous as the fellow that taught me to fly some 15 years ago. I'm pursuing a Buff and some plains game and will likely get talked into a hippo. I've picked up a 375 H&H in a Model 70 that is shooting 1-hole groups for me with heavy loads.

Dieter is working with me to plan a 2027 Zim hunt for Trophy Elephant, Buff, and a Leopard. While he as assured me the 375 will do the job, I'm considering a power upgrade and would love experienced input. On my list are pushing the 375 to 375 WBY. I cannot find a person that has actually done that that speaks negatively. Plenty that speculate, but none with experience. Next on the list would be a 416. I really like both the Ruger and CZ in 416 Rigby. Terrific classic. A 416 Rem on a model 70 makes more sense of course. If brass were available, the 416 Ruger would be in the discussion mix. I do not shoot factory rounds in any of my guns. Any experience with 416 vs 458 win performance on Elephant? love to hear real world experiences. Same with 375 WBY.

I'm not generally recoil sensitive with 20 round bench sessions with the 375 being a norm. That said, I don't want to go too big and become the guy that flinches.

Looking forward to thoughts and thanks for the input

Kurt

I think all rifles you mentioned there are all enough guns. At the end of the day, it comes to what you have in your store and are you comfortable shooting your firearms. I personally have a model 70 in .416 Rem and it delivers the results without doubt. Once you get used to your rifle, you become confident in it and it becomes a trusted arm of your body. Apart from ammunition brand and calibre of rifle, enough practice with your rifle/rifles makes you confident enough in the field.

 

[Altitude sickness]

DLSJR, I’m sure you meant to write Tension pneumothorax. The point you’re making is the same though.

People have also argued for decades that an arrow staying in the animal is better. The broad-head doing more damage with every movement.

I have never agreed with that thought either. I want my arrow to quickly and cleanly pass through the whole animal, leaving two holes. Often the animal doesn’t even know an arrow just zipped through them, no loud sound, just something bit them. But with the arrow hanging out of their side, it freaks them out and then they run like a scalded monkey.

I’ll take clean pass throughs and the entrance and exit wound every time. Now shooting in a group of animals and multiple animals is a whole different discussion.

 

[Green Chile]

Shock killing animals only works if you are very precise in the application…brain or spine but not in all cases...you can’t shock a croc. I’ve turned their spine into gravel and they kept breathing for 30 min and blinking at you and following you with their eyes…jaws opening and closing. Are they dead? Sort of but still dangerous!

What kind of energy would it take to shock a ton of eland…or bigger if hitting away from brain/spine. It would take a rocket launcher literally if that was the case. Put a big bullet in the wrong place and the animal might not even react.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Opinions on rifles for DG are like A-holes, everybody has got one. Me included. But, you asked for comments from hunters who have been there. So, here is my 2-cents. Prior to my DG hunt for Cape Buffalo, I wanted a 416 Rigby but could not find one that I could afford at the time and ended up with a 375HH. Then a 2nd one. I liked the cartridge and used it with good effect on a Blue WB last year. I studied the ballistics and liked the longer range of the 375 for PG as well. I believed that the advent of moder bullets like the TSX and A-Frame made the 375 punch well above its weight class. My PH said it was all I needed for Cape Buffalo. I bagged a nice Kudu with my 375 this year with two shots and the first was poorly placed yet it drilled thru and thru with both. Buffalo are bigger and tougher.

A few weeks ago, I was on Safari (my 2nd) and we waded into a thorn thicket so dense that you could not see a buff that was more than 20y away and I am here to tell you that at that moment, I was really wishing that I had brought a 458WM or better still the 458 Lott. As it turned out the buffalos exited the thorn thicket rather than grant us an audience that day and the next day, I took my Buffalo with the 375HH on more open ground. I used 300g TSX ammo and it took four shots without misses to put it down on the ground. None of those shots exited the animal. And to be honest, I was not all that impressed. Would I do it again? Probably. But, If I was going to hunt Ele, I would bring a bigger hammer. I am not recoil sensitive and enjoy shotting 500g full power loads in the 458WM. It kicks more than the 375 but it is not enough more to matter. Not sure I would want to shoot it much from a bench. For any DG besides Elephant, the 375 is probably enough gun. I would talk to your PH about the terrain and cover where you plan to hunt. If it is going to be in tight, dense cover a bigger option than the 375 would be my choice. Yes, your PH will have a stopper and part of his job is to cover your ass, but why intentionally go down that rabbit hole? 416R is a great cartridge. That is the only 40 I would consider only because of ammo availability. 458WM is a good performer for DG. There are others. But those two would be my most likely choices.

Yes, I bagged my buff with the 375HH and no, my PH did not have to shoot a single shot. I could have killed it with one or two shots but was of the mind that as long as it was standing I would keep shooting. My rifle holds 5 shots and I fired four in the span of about 8-10sec and the bull dropped dead at that point. He only ran about 30y and only faced us once. I was never in any danger except the day we stalked into that 10acre thorn thicket. For those few hours, I was walking in the valley of the shadow of death and I was NOT feeling good about my choice. Sometimes you get to do dangerous stupid stuff and survive, lol. The thing to do is learn from those experiences and like you are doing now, try to learn from the dumb things experienced by others.

Use your 375HH on the buffalo and see what your think. Use 300g or 350g full power loads and get closer than 100y. Shoot well and place the critical 1st shot well and then keep shooting. Learn from that experience and then go buy the biggest gun you can shoot well for the elephant. My 2-cents. Enjoy the hunts. Africa is a magical place.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The latest “This is Africa” podcast has Buzz on. And Buzz recounts several hunts with .600 and .700 Nitro DR elephant hunts gone bad. Poor shooting missing or wounding elephant.

He would prefer the client use a .375 h&h he can shoot well. He also admits to his own mistakes and mishaps with elephants.

 

[TOBY458]

The latest “This is Africa” podcast has Buzz on. And Buzz recounts several hunts with .600 and .700 Nitro DR elephant hunts gone bad. Poor shooting missing or wounding elephant.

He would prefer the client use a .375 h&h he can shoot well. He also admits to his own mistakes and mishaps with elephants.

I really enjoyed that podcast. TIA has really done well.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Opinions on rifles for DG are like A-holes, everybody has got one. Me included. But, you asked for comments from hunters who have been there. So, here is my 2-cents. Prior to my DG hunt for Cape Buffalo, I wanted a 416 Rigby but could not find one that I could afford at the time and ended up with a 375HH. Then a 2nd one. I liked the cartridge and used it with good effect on a Blue WB last year. I studied the ballistics and liked the longer range of the 375 for PG as well. I believed that the advent of moder bullets like the TSX and A-Frame made the 375 punch well above its weight class. My PH said it was all I needed for Cape Buffalo. I bagged a nice Kudu with my 375 this year with two shots and the first was poorly placed yet it drilled thru and thru with both. Buffalo are bigger and tougher.

A few weeks ago, I was on Safari (my 2nd) and we waded into a thorn thicket so dense that you could not see a buff that was more than 20y away and I am here to tell you that at that moment, I was really wishing that I had brought a 458WM or better still the 458 Lott. As it turned out the buffalos exited the thorn thicket rather than grant us an audience that day and the next day, I took my Buffalo with the 375HH on more open ground. I used 300g TSX ammo and it took four shots without misses to put it down on the ground. None of those shots exited the animal. And to be honest, I was not all that impressed. Would I do it again? Probably. But, If I was going to hunt Ele, I would bring a bigger hammer. I am not recoil sensitive and enjoy shotting 500g full power loads in the 458WM. It kicks more than the 375 but it is not enough more to matter. Not sure I would want to shoot it much from a bench. For any DG besides Elephant, the 375 is probably enough gun. I would talk to your PH about the terrain and cover where you plan to hunt. If it is going to be in tight, dense cover a bigger option than the 375 would be my choice. Yes, your PH will have a stopper and part of his job is to cover your ass, but why intentionally go down that rabbit hole? 416R is a great cartridge. That is the only 40 I would consider only because of ammo availability. 458WM is a good performer for DG. There are others. But those two would be my most likely choices.

Yes, I bagged my buff with the 375HH and no, my PH did not have to shoot a single shot. I could have killed it with one or two shots but was of the mind that as long as it was standing I would keep shooting. My rifle holds 5 shots and I fired four in the span of about 8-10sec and the bull dropped dead at that point. He only ran about 30y and only faced us once. I was never in any danger except the day we stalked into that 10acre thorn thicket. For those few hours, I was walking in the valley of the shadow of death and I was NOT feeling good about my choice. Sometimes you get to do dangerous stupid stuff and survive, lol. The thing to do is learn from those experiences and like you are doing now, try to learn from the dumb things experienced by others.

Use your 375HH on the buffalo and see what your think. Use 300g or 350g full power loads and get closer than 100y. Shoot well and place the critical 1st shot well and then keep shooting. Learn from that experience and then go buy the biggest gun you can shoot well for the elephant. My 2-cents. Enjoy the hunts. Africa is a magical place.

Reminds me of my first buffalo. I came for plains game and a special deal came up to cull a particular "fantastic" cow. Well, okay ... I guess ... sure. PH takes me to the range and I fire his 375 once. It is bang on at 100 yards. He asks if I want to try his 458L stopper. No thanks. Not interested in any more retina surgery. We arrive at the property and are heading into the thick stuff. I stop. Take off the sling, hand it to tracker, and motion to my PH for a conference. "Too many people! Six is just more noise and easier for the buffs to see someone." The lodge owner had decided to tag along + his client + our tracker + the property manager. "How about me, you, and the manager dude?" (who as it turns out was formerly a tracker at our lodge). He agrees. Lodge owner wouldn't go for it but the rest were sent back to the trucks. It wasn't a thorn thicket but very dense cover at the foot of the mountains. Suddenly the manager stops and motions to our left. Dark shapes moving maybe thirty yards away. Then PH sees them at twelve o'clock. I look to our right and see more. We are right in the middle of the herd on its afternoon walkabout. And I'm holding a gun I've shot once and loaded with I dunno what. Oh boy! Then they stop and a big black shape gets clear enough for a look at us. It's obviously the herd boss. He turns and the whole outfit crashes off with some cows running by very close in front. This was essentially a scouting mission anyway because light was fading. So we headed back. Caught them running through an opening a half hour later and the bull stopped them for a look at us just long enough for me to get on the sticks and put a bullet through granny's heart at 100 meters.

Really, I don't think I would have felt more comfortable holding an RPG in that thick stuff. It was the first time I'd ever seen a Cape buffalo and to see something so immense at very close range was an interesting experience. I can tell you I wasn't thinking about my gun.

Turns out I was shooting bullets that were relatively light even for 375. But one shot killed her very effectively.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Reminds me of my first buffalo. I came for plains game and a special deal came up to cull a particular "fantastic" cow. Well, okay ... I guess ... sure. PH takes me to the range and I fire his 375 once. We are right in the middle of the herd on its afternoon walkabout. And I'm holding a gun I've shot once and loaded with I dunno what. Oh boy! Then they stop and a big black shape gets clear enough for a look at us. It's obviously the herd boss. He turns and the whole outfit crashes off with some cows running by very close in front. This was essentially a scouting mission anyway because light was fading. So we headed back. Caught them running through an opening a half hour later and the bull stopped them for a look at us just long enough for me to get on the sticks and put a bullet through granny's heart at 100 meters.

Really, I don't think I would have felt more comfortable holding an RPG in that thick stuff. It was the first time I'd ever seen a Cape buffalo and to see something so immense at very close range was an interesting experience. I can tell you I wasn't thinking about my gun.

Turns out I was shooting bullets that were relatively light even for 375. But one shot killed her very effectively.

Like I said, sometimes we do stupid shit and yet still survive. No way in hell I am going in after DG with a rifle that I only fired once with ammo I know nothing of. Glad you made it in and out in one piece. The first time I saw a herd on the move, we had them pass to our rear at about 200y. Trees were breaking and we heard them long before we saw them. That is a spectacle to be sure. Had it been 30y I might have been trembling a little, lol.

When we were in the thick stuff we were so close we could smell them and still were unable to make out a single bull, let alone tell if it was a shooter or not. Fun after it is over, sort of like base jumping.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Like I said, sometimes we do stupid shit and yet still survive. No way in hell I am going in after DG with a rifle that I only fired once with ammo I know nothing of. Glad you made it in and out in one piece. The first time I saw a herd on the move, we had them pass to our rear at about 200y. Trees were breaking and we heard them long before we saw them. That is a spectacle to be sure. Had it been 30y I might have been trembling a little, lol.

When we were in the thick stuff we were so close we could smell them and still were unable to make out a single bull, let alone tell if it was a shooter or not. Fun after it is over, sort of like base jumping.

Well, I wouldn't call it "stupid shit." I hunted with my PH the previous safari and knew what he was about. The guy knows a lot more about reloading and shooting Cape buffalo than the old man he was guiding. The gun was a CZ bolt action (Ebony Special Edition as I recall). Good old 3x9 Leopold scope on top with normal tapered reticle. Nothing terribly different from the Springfield 03A3 I used to shoot a mountain of animals over sixty years. Felt the same coming to my shoulder. Eye relief was just right. Anyway I'll be shooting off the sticks so what's the big deal about shooting a strange rifle? It recoiled but no worse than my 3" mag goose gun wearing plastic. Been living with that since 1968. At the range Glen asked me if I wanted to shoot it more. "What for? It's on." I don't feel great about wasting another guy's ammo. Range time has never been fun time for me anyway. Yawn.