I agree with most of your points and that Botswana is somewhat different. The Botswana government and citizenry seem to value wildlife more than in some other countries. Of course there are bad actors and poachers in every country.
Which is better? Whichever you’re able to visit. +1 on living vicariously.Soooo...........which is better, SA or "wild" Africa?
For me, wherever I am hunting at the time is the greatest place in the world. Especially if the wife is with me. For the places I cannot hunt for personal, financial and/or health reasons, I live vicariously through the reports and photos here on AH, my books and YouTube videos.
Safe hunting
In any other country I'd be inclined to agree. But again, Botswana's human population is too miniscule for any negative effects to be felt on her elephant populations, and the predictions for the amount of people in that country by the end of the century reflects that. If anything, it's the elephants who have pushed into areas where they weren't found originally, and are now having a free-for-all on agriculture. Do I want the elephants around? Absolutely. But again, let's keep in mind that the extremely high bumbers are not natural and Botswana as a country is actually very generous to have decided to keep them, in spite of the damage they do.
Nothing I disagree with there. But I doubt that something similar will happen eventually with Botswana's elephants. There's been nothing to suggest a decline in trophy quality, other than game movement. The only thing that might happen is that the big bulls will become more wary and therefore more difficult get up on. I don't really see that as a bad thing tbh.
How's this? 2021, Chobe Enclave. Okay, it might not be quite as large as the example you gave but it's pretty damn close.
In Zululand? I find that hard to believe. South Africa only had a total head of game numbering 600k in the 1970s. Maybe he was telling the truth and that particular area he's from has seen a decline in game? Keep in mind that Africa has experienced massive shifts in game numbers in certain regions, whether it concerns increases or decreases. The Kalahari just as recently as the 60s did indeed have migrating herds of springbok numbering in the millions. Then the veterinary fence was erected and put an end to that. So now the overwhelming majority of wildlife in the Kalahari is found in and around Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park and the hunting areas surrounding it, along with the private game reserves in the North West province and Northern Cape.
And I guess that's what makes life so worthwhile in the first place...
Forgot to put the top paragraph of yours in quotations. Apologies if any confusion was caused.I implied nothing. Wrong to have population growth?! Every last person needing to feed themselves is welcome to do so in the manner they see fit. You want twenty children, go for it. Self determination at its best.
Okay, I think we both misinterpreted each other here. You're very much coming from the point of a view of a conservationist who is well aware of the negative impacts that human population growth has on wildlife. What I was trying to say is that, in the context of Botswana, the human population is so small and miniscule in comparison to the amount of land available, that an extra million people (all in and around Gabarone away from the north of the country, where the elephants roam) will have next to effects on the country's gross overpopulation of elephants. Because let's be real, the elephant numbers in Botswana are not natural at all. Ron Thompson has frequently gone on about the habitat degradation this has had and even how certain species, lions in particular whose natural hiding places have been reduced, are at the mercy of 130k elephants (conservative estimate!).
In any other country I'd be inclined to agree. But again, Botswana's human population is too miniscule for any negative effects to be felt on her elephant populations, and the predictions for the amount of people in that country by the end of the century reflects that. If anything, it's the elephants who have pushed into areas where they weren't found originally, and are now having a free-for-all on agriculture. Do I want the elephants around? Absolutely. But again, let's keep in mind that the extremely high bumbers are not natural and Botswana as a country is actually very generous to have decided to keep them, in spite of the damage they do.
Nothing I disagree with there. But I doubt that something similar will happen eventually with Botswana's elephants. There's been nothing to suggest a decline in trophy quality, other than game movement. The only thing that might happen is that the big bulls will become more wary and therefore more difficult get up on. I don't really see that as a bad thing tbh.
How's this? 2021, Chobe Enclave. Okay, it might not be quite as large as the example you gave but it's pretty damn close.
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In Zululand? I find that hard to believe. South Africa only had a total head of game numbering 600k in the 1970s. Maybe he was telling the truth and that particular area he's from has seen a decline in game? Keep in mind that Africa has experienced massive shifts in game numbers in certain regions, whether it concerns increases or decreases. The Kalahari just as recently as the 60s did indeed have migrating herds of springbok numbering in the millions. Then the veterinary fence was erected and put an end to that. So now the overwhelming majority of wildlife in the Kalahari is found in and around Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park and the hunting areas surrounding it, along with the private game reserves in the North West province and Northern Cape.
Whereas the rest of South Africa has experienced the complete opposite. Where there were areas once barren and devoid of game, are now brimming with several species of antelopes. Sure, it's highly controlled but keep in mind that these incredible densities in game numbers didn't exist just 40 years ago.
And I guess that's what makes life so worthwhile in the first place...
Cheers and thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
Exactly. I don't at all paint myself to be a particularly knowledgeable individual and definitely not someone of major importance. And Tank's experience is far above mine. That said, I'm passionate about hunting in Africa and its wildlife, and try to share as much information I find on the topic with everyone here. I have a natural thirst for knowledge. I didn't create an account to just sit on my ass, waiting for two years so that I would eventually fit Tank's standards of respectability.
There are things that are different about this site compared to some others. One is that we thankfully have a ignore button. Second, and I believe it far more important, we rarely feel compelled to use it. One may disagree with @Tanks observations about hunting Africa, but his are indeed informed opinions. A "thirst for knowledge" somehow seems at odds with disparaging those who actually possess it. He has neither been rude nor disagreeable. He has simply offered his opinions based upon his experience. Perhaps we would all benefit were you to participate in the same vein.Exactly. I don't at all paint myself to be a particularly knowledgeable individual and definitely not someone of major importance. And Tank's experience is far above mine. That said, I'm passionate about hunting in Africa and its wildlife, and try to share as much information I find on the topic with everyone here. I have a natural thirst for knowledge. I didn't create an account to just sit on my ass, waiting for two years so that I would eventually fit Tank's standards of respectability.
And who, pray tell is responsible for the incidence of load shedding? Westerners? Former white African leadership? (TBH, we have our own idiots here who still blame everything on Trump, or even Bush before him, but when it all shakes out, it is only fair and necessarily just to assign blame where it belongs.) If you have been offended by intimations that Africa is incapable of running itself, I can say that the right to run yourself and running yourself well are two different concepts--and it is not racist to say the King has no clothes! (The ANC certainly being largely naked in that scenario). Please inform us where Africa is being well run, we could use the breath of fresh air. And it would help counterbalance all the nonsense we have observed across the spectrum of countries post colonialism. List the places where corruption, nepotism, and tribalism are not rife, PLEASE. We're all for a successful Africa, just beyond kissing up to let others pretend they are doing things competently, all the while sticking their hands out constantly for outside aid, after thoroughly plundering their own populations. We don't have to, and cannot be forced to pretend things are OK or enter another person's lunacy to make them feel better.
I wasn't responding to Tanks, I was responding to @BSO Dave. I thought my not tagging Tanks was a show of non-hostility but I digress.
I mean, are they? I'm not at all trying to nullify Tank's experience but his opinions are obviously based on his own personal preferences and he's more than welcome to do so.
No, you're confusing me having a differing opinion with stomping out what everyone else has to say. Having a discussion means than people will invariably have disagreements.
ONLY in this instance, as I actually called him out.
I really am trying to, but I think people (including myself) are too easily being swayed by their emotions, despite the cordialness.
K... lol. Where did that come from? Your entire argument falls apart if you actually take into account that I wasn't ever accusing anyone of racism if you actually bothered reading my earlier replies. But I guess some of us just NEED a good fight, eh? And just as an FYI, my grandfather on my father's side served in the SADF during the Border War, and my great-grandfather on my mother's side was General Peter Walls (yes, that one.) That kind of family history is bound to shape the way one percieves the world. So to think that I'm woke and think white people are to blame for Africa's failures is just absurd.
