Heym 88b ph model

[rookhawk]

I’m out on buying a VC anytime soon. If I stumbled on a grail gun, but otherwise I’m ordering another Heym here in the next couple weeks. I’ve got it spec’d, just trying to decide between an African frame 450 with second set of barrels in 450/400 set up for scope, or a 450/400 with scoped barrels in 375 Flanged Mags.

If it were me and I was ordering from scratch, I would order a 470NE, 2nd set of barrels 375 Flanged, 3rd Barrel set 20 gauge.

You'd have a proper elephant rifle with easy to find ammo and components in the 470NE. The 375 Flanged is perfect for lion and leopard, and would be excellent for bear, elk, moose, and all the plains game. The 20 gauge barrel would let you practice a lot at the range, plus shoot guineas, francolin, doves, and ducks in Africa. Oh, and the 20 gauge with buck and bird shot is excellent for the small duikers and night animals like civets, genets, etc.

The 450NE and 450/400 do not provide enough differentiation in my opinion. Neither is the best elephant caliber, neither have the flat shooting reach for plains game that the 375 Flanged provides.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I would agree on the 20ga barrels. I can’t on the 470NE. It’s the cartridge that never should have been…but for that little, short-lived fear of sporting bullets used in military rifles.

I absolutely don’t think the 450NE lacks anything for effective use on elephants or anything else one would consider using a 470NE on, and so much more pleasant to shoot. It has superior sectional density, and if you move up to 500gr bullets, of which there are plenty to choose from, you have an incredible cartridge that will penetrate elephant with much greater efficiency than the 470NE. Not my words…stole them from Doctori Kevin Robertson. He often follows with the story of his ranger friend who has done just that on countless elephants over the last couple decades with his 88b shooting mono-solids, claiming hip to brisket penetration.

BUT…the fear is what if the airline loses my ammo. With the 450NE you could be SOL, certainly in comparison to the 470NE and 500NE. Part of the reason I wanted a 500NE…and as I dial in loads for its debut trip in October…I keep having second thoughts that maybe I should take the trusty 450NE instead. It’s proven on buffalo, hippo, elephant and even bushbuck. But realize it would prove silly to not take it. It’s so damn pretty I can’t help but stare at it, and it’s fun to shoot, accurate, everything one could want…just not my 450.

I do need to spend some time behind a proper 11.25-11.5lb 470NE to complete the fact basis for my existing distaste for the cartridge. The last 89b I imported with my 500 would have proven a perfect test subject and a gorgeous one, but I knew I wouldn’t keep the rifle so smartly passed it along to someone who would rightfully enjoy it.

I have shot a few 470NE south of 11lb and my 88b was right at 10.5lb and it was not a gun I enjoyed to shoot much. I have a photo I shared here in the forums of a bruise over my bicep area that drifted down from my shoulder…significant enough for the gal at the blood bank to sarcastically ask if I felt safe at home. That was from 3-4 shooting sessions of 16-30 rounds each from that 470. It hurt, and I typically say I’m relatively recoil tolerant. That rifle made me second guess if that were really true or I just hadn’t shot much in volume over the 416 Rigby. My 505 Gibbs I’d only fired a handful of rounds at a time, but never a problem.

The one thing my first 500NE thought me, was for whatever reason, the 470NE recoils differently…and in a way that simply sucks…period. And that 88b 500NE was only around 11.3lb, but way more pleasant to shoot. So many folks say the 470 is the perfect hunting client big bore, less recoil than the 500, lighter, and so on. I would wholeheartedly suggest folks talk to someone who has spent a lot of time behind both interchangeably and see if you hear the same thing. I haven’t found someone who owns both and likes shooting the 470 more. I mean maybe if their 500 is not properly fit or built to proper weight.

Explaining my feelings on this to Frosty (@Hornedfrogbbq) when passing my 500NE 88b, he really wanted a 470 as he heard it’s the grail of calibers for sportsman hunters. I was not trying to talk him out of it and into my 500NE, I wasn’t worried about selling the rifle, it would find a home when the time came…but tried to explain the issues I’ve found with the 470, and while it might look better on paper, it is miserable in reality.

The physics and gravitational pull forces or big bore gods or something apply differently to the 470. I described it like comparing the recoil of a 9mm to that of a 45acp or like a 454 Casull to a 500 Linebaugh. One is just so snappy and the recoil pulse seems to slap you sharply where the other is more like a deep shove. I might have described as a hard slap across the face vs a loving shove from a buddy…but that would be my bias coming through. But there is a dramatic difference in how that mathematical recoil force is imparted on the body, that’s what I knew for certain.

So I’m about 270-ish rounds deep into shooting this new 500NE 89b, and it recoils. I know there is a limit on the number of rounds I can comfortably shoot in a session…I don’t know what that limit is yet, but do know it’s north of 56. In just the last 10 days, I’ve shot several times and over 30 rounds per session. Last Friday I shot 42 rounds through it, Sunday I shot 56, yesterday I shot 48, today I will shoot 36. It all depends on what all I roll up to try and others to practice with. I will also shoot other things in between shooting the 500, like yesterday I ran about 24-30 rounds through the 375 Flanged 88b and for giggles had to try a few rounds through a late 1960’s Holland 7mm mag. Few ended up being 16 because I was having fun.

I have no bruising at all, let along some giant bruise migrating down my arm. Both that 470 and this 500 had identical LOP and fit me wonderfully. It’s a difference in weight and the cartridge.

I cannot see me ever ordering a 470 and only reason I’d buy one is if it was a significant discount where I could play with it for a bit and release, or a gun I’ve really wanted but could not get or want to afford in another cartridge. Like I can see talking myself into a Holland and Holland or WR 500/465 simply because I could enjoy the rifle for a fraction of what a 500 would cost me…and would never consider a 470 unless it was to play and flip. I’ve seen some scary light weights posted for 470’s by both those two amazing makers…which goes to my belief that those were guns possibly built for prestige of ownership and their artistry as much as their shooting. Which is also ok. If you are someone who wants to look at and carry the gun a lot, and only shoot it a little…which many, many people are that way…then those are the guns for those hunters. Some people don’t feel out on ballistics and accuracy and running drills and so on. They want a high quality, or vintage, or down right fancy, gun that looks pretty, has a cool name, can be carried with reasonable comfort, and goes boom when the PH whispers there, see him, shoot him in the ear or on the shoulder, and expects that the gun will shoot as well as they can at that close distance…and just suffer and/or flinch through the resulting recoil. The 470 would seem perfect for this. So would many other cartridges.

Last point being…if you are not an avid shooter, lean into whatever makes you happy and brings you joy in ownership and carrying it afield. Everyone should practice enough to run the gun without constantly pulling the same trigger twice or fumbling on taking safety off…especially returning to safety, but if only shooting it occasionally, then the recoil isn’t that much of a factor and a 470 might be the ticket…it’s super popular with the cool kids for some reason and it can’t just be the ammo I easier to find..but maybe.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Looping back to the recoil pulse feeling different on the 470, @Hornedfrogbbq sent me a photo from one of van der Walt’s books that I had said he should buy if ever the chance arose. I’d read it cover to cover and have it out often in looking over loadings and the like, but admit I hadn’t reread the early chapters in quite some time when Frosty pointed me back to page 44.

This is in the chapter in comfortable shooting mass, the discussion of weight as it impacts how recoil is transferred to the body. What Frosty pointed me to was the far right column, the velocity of the recoil. While the ft/lb of recoil energy of the 500NE is marginally more than the 470NE, the 470NE recoil pulse is faster. (Made me almost feel smart for a second in how I fumbled through trying to explain it being more snappy than shovey).

While it didn’t surprise me at all that the recoil velocity of the 470 was faster than the 500, what shocked me was that it was faster than all the other cartridges in the caliber range.

It’s markedly faster than even the 460 Weatherby magnum. That really did surprise me. Now how does that correlate or calculate into felt recoil, I cannot say other than it tracks my feelings on the cartridge…that I’m just not tough enough to enjoying shooting a 470 a lot. It is not my favored cartridge for any reason, and find them unpleasant to shoot compared to even much larger cartridges.

 

[rookhawk]

@Wildwillalaska I'm a fan of what the 470NE has accomplished, you're not as impressed. Let me give you my pitch:

1.) Using IMR3031 or RL15 for your regulating load, a Heym 470NE will produce around 58-62lbs of felt recoil.

2.) Bullets and brass are readily available for the 470NE. If in Africa and you lose your ammo, that is the #1 double rifle round you have a chance of finding in an emergency.

3.) 500NE with the same powders as above and the same proper weight rifle, you're looking at 65-69 pounds of recoil. With these powders, I find them to be much more pleasant to shoot than a 416 Rigby or 458 Lott that has a very unpleasant, snappy recoil rather than the shoved by a an ox scenario of the 470 and 500.

Either way, 470 or 500, you're getting much more versatility. I love your idea of the 375 Flanged for everything else. Perfect pair. the 20 gauge is just gravy, you own one weapon you know intimately and use very often, often enough to justify the costs.

One thing I warn you about with 450NE. Supplies of components are limited and from time to time, very hard to find. Bullets are not as available as you'd think, you need that 450NE dimension with the cannelure way down the bullet and those are very rare. The standard 458 Winmag bullet has the crimp groove way up the shank. Thus, I reject the 450NE for supply shortages and that the 470NE and 500NE have a lot of benefits.

Happy shopping.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

@Wildwillalaska I'm a fan of what the 470NE has accomplished, you're not as impressed. Let me give you my pitch:

1.) Using IMR3031 or RL15 for your regulating load, a Heym 470NE will produce around 58-62lbs of felt recoil.

2.) Bullets and brass are readily available for the 470NE. If in Africa and you lose your ammo, that is the #1 double rifle round you have a chance of finding in an emergency.

3.) 500NE with the same powders as above and the same proper weight rifle, you're looking at 65-69 pounds of recoil. With these powders, I find them to be much more pleasant to shoot than a 416 Rigby or 458 Lott that has a very unpleasant, snappy recoil rather than the shoved by a an ox scenario of the 470 and 500.

Either way, 470 or 500, you're getting much more versatility. I love your idea of the 375 Flanged for everything else. Perfect pair. the 20 gauge is just gravy, you own one weapon you know intimately and use very often, often enough to justify the costs.

One thing I warn you about with 450NE. Supplies of components are limited and from time to time, very hard to find. Bullets are not as available as you'd think, you need that 450NE dimension with the cannelure way down the bullet and those are very rare. The standard 458 Winmag bullet has the crimp groove way up the shank. Thus, I reject the 450NE for supply shortages and that the 470NE and 500NE have a lot of benefits.

Happy shopping.

You are 100% accurate as the 470 ammo and brass are more readily available than really ALL other NE cartridges, 500 included. I do still believe there is something lost in being focused on the Ft/lb energy math (regardless of powders) and have to factor in the manner the recoil transfers…which reviewing van der Walt’s writings I think is the recoil speed. I just know it feels different and in a bad way, comparatively.

And trying to compare apples to apples to the extent possible…albeit some are those smaller Rocket apples my kids love and some larger giant honeycrisp. I’ve tried powders from IMR 3031, RL15, RL16, RL17, RL19, Varget, H4350, H4831sc, and most recently VV N540 in developing loads in several doubles just in the last year. So I’m not trying to compare the feel of a 500NE loaded down to 2020fps with RL15 to a factory Hornady load in 470 with slow burning powder like H Superperformance…or whatever they use.

I have to say the most unpleasant 470 factory load I’d shot was Barnes factory ammo with TSX…whatever combo they have is super consistent velocity wise, but you get to feel those fps too, even compared to factory Federal or Hornady. But you are absolutely correct that shooters who enjoy running doubles do themselves the biggest favors looking to faster burning powders, like IMR3031 and RL15. I cannot discern any felt difference in recoil between those two powders, and both feel more like getting licked by kittens in comparison to H4831sc, comparing load to load at same velocities.

So even with use of those powders, which I was burning mostly RL15 when I bruised myself with my then 470…which is significant to me, as I really rarely ever get any kind of bruising…so freaked my misses out.

Now, fear not the 450NE my friend. It truly is a Goldilocks amongst giants. The bullets are not as elusive as you might think, certainly not in the bullets that matter for this discussion. Woodleigh…yes…matters 100%. You need to get the 480’s they design for the 450NE for correct cannelure placement. But most all others you are solid…CEB, Northfork, Swift A-frame 500’s and 450’s all seat fine for the 450NE. With CEB, you can take the bullets they specifically designate for the 450NE and set beside ones for the Win Mag and Lott…the driving bands and crimp are identical.

BUT…brass you have to get Bertram for new manufacture or find old Hornady and Jamison. Hornady hasn’t had brass for sale in quite some time, just the loaded ammo…which while available and in stock, it’s harder to come by than say the 450/400 and 470.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

The 375 Flanged 88b I have now is super handy and will take it in October as well, but it’s on a lightweight frame and dainty light. Super comfortable to shoot, but I wish it had a little more weight in the barrels, it feels a little squirrelly on sticks…especially after shooting other larger Heyms in 450/400, 450NE and of course the 500.

I believe they can make a set of 375 flanged barrels to fit the African (medium) frame which would put a bit more weight in hand and at the ends of the barrels.

While I love my Grossbox 450NE, having one in the mid-10lb would be likely nice later down the road. So ordering I was looking towards what I’d want in the decade or three to come. I have a 450/400, and while nice level 1 engraved gun, I wish it was level 2 to match my 450, or case colored, so that’s been my pause the last several weeks, trying to sort out which to build as the primary cartridge. And zero rush, since I already have both. If I did another 450/400, I’d likely part with my present 89b when it came in since I also have a Westley Richards in that caliber.

Reality is, if I live to the point where I find the Grossbox 450NE too heavy or cumbersome, I’d likely prefer the 450/400 for other purposes as well. Today, I’d never choose the 450/400 over my 450NE, but if I were anywhere in my 60’s or later, I think the 450/400 is likely the best primary double cartridge. So I guess, really, I know what I should order…I just find ways to second guess or cannot imagine ordering ground up and not having a 450NE.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Wildwillalaska one thing that @rookhawk isn't accounting for is you have an insane amount of components for the 450NE already. You're both correct to worry about 450NE ammo if it gets lost (I do as well), but that's why I always have a scoped 375H&H in the case with it. I can always find 375H&H Ammo (more so than 470) and with one of my PH's I've probably left 5-6 boxes of A-Frames.

 

[Rare Breed]

You are 100% accurate as the 470 ammo and brass are more readily available than really ALL other NE cartridges, 500 included. I do still believe there is something lost in being focused on the Ft/lb energy math (regardless of powders) and have to factor in the manner the recoil transfers…which reviewing van der Walt’s writings I think is the recoil speed. I just know it feels different and in a bad way, comparatively.

And trying to compare apples to apples to the extent possible…albeit some are those smaller Rocket apples my kids love and some larger giant honeycrisp. I’ve tried powders from IMR 3031, RL15, RL16, RL17, RL19, Varget, H4350, H4831sc, and most recently VV N540 in developing loads in several doubles just in the last year. So I’m not trying to compare the feel of a 500NE loaded down to 2020fps with RL15 to a factory Hornady load in 470 with slow burning powder like H Superperformance…or whatever they use.

I have to say the most unpleasant 470 factory load I’d shot was Barnes factory ammo with TSX…whatever combo they have is super consistent velocity wise, but you get to feel those fps too, even compared to factory Federal or Hornady. But you are absolutely correct that shooters who enjoy running doubles do themselves the biggest favors looking to faster burning powders, like IMR3031 and RL15. I cannot discern any felt difference in recoil between those two powders, and both feel more like getting licked by kittens in comparison to H4831sc, comparing load to load at same velocities.

So even with use of those powders, which I was burning mostly RL15 when I bruised myself with my then 470…which is significant to me, as I really rarely ever get any kind of bruising…so freaked my misses out.

Now, fear not the 450NE my friend. It truly is a Goldilocks amongst giants. The bullets are not as elusive as you might think, certainly not in the bullets that matter for this discussion. Woodleigh…yes…matters 100%. You need to get the 480’s they design for the 450NE for correct cannelure placement. But most all others you are solid…CEB, Northfork, Swift A-frame 500’s and 450’s all seat fine for the 450NE. With CEB, you can take the bullets they specifically designate for the 450NE and set beside ones for the Win Mag and Lott…the driving bands and crimp are identical.

BUT…brass you have to get Bertram for new manufacture or find old Hornady and Jamison. Hornady hasn’t had brass for sale in quite some time, just the loaded ammo…which while available and in stock, it’s harder to come by than say the 450/400 and 470.

I am with you! I have had 470’s, 500’s and 450-400’s. I finally settled on 450 NE using either IMR3031 or RL15.5. Meets minimum stopping power I wanted without excess foot pounds of recoil.

 

[Surgeon1]

I have doubles from 9.3x74 to 500NE. I have three 470's and 2 are ok to shoot but the early Heym stock gun configuration makes it a brute. The 500 wt is 12.5# and is more pleasant than the Heym 470.
I have a Chapuis which is 10.2 lbs and actually more pleasant than the Heym. New arrival is a
450 3 1/4 at 11.6 lbs and so far is much less felt recoil with RL15 and IMR3031 than the 470"s.
I express a lot of thanks to my friend Will on convincing me to try a 450 3 1/4". So, in 5 weeks and 5 days I'll be off to Tanzania for a month of DG only with my Heym 450-400 and the new 450 3 1/4, and for the first time ever no backup Bolt gun!

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I have doubles from 9.3x74 to 500NE. I have three 470's and 2 are ok to shoot but the early Heym stock gun configuration makes it a brute. The 500 wt is 12.5# and is more pleasant than the Heym 470.
I have a Chapuis which is 10.2 lbs and actually more pleasant than the Heym. New arrival is a
450 3 1/4 at 11.6 lbs and so far is much less felt recoil with RL15 and IMR3031 than the 470"s.
I express a lot of thanks to my friend Will on convincing me to try a 450 3 1/4". So, in 5 weeks and 5 days I'll be off to Tanzania for a month of DG only with my Heym 450-400 and the new 450 3 1/4, and for the first time ever no backup Bolt gun!

I expect that 450 3 1/4” will quickly become a favorite dose of Buffalo medicine. I found it works exceptionally well, at least on game within the size range of warthog to elephant. Those Tanzania Buffalo bulls don’t know what they’re in for. Good luck brother.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I have doubles from 9.3x74 to 500NE. I have three 470's and 2 are ok to shoot but the early Heym stock gun configuration makes it a brute. The 500 wt is 12.5# and is more pleasant than the Heym 470.
I have a Chapuis which is 10.2 lbs and actually more pleasant than the Heym. New arrival is a
450 3 1/4 at 11.6 lbs and so far is much less felt recoil with RL15 and IMR3031 than the 470"s.
I express a lot of thanks to my friend Will on convincing me to try a 450 3 1/4". So, in 5 weeks and 5 days I'll be off to Tanzania for a month of DG only with my Heym 450-400 and the new 450 3 1/4, and for the first time ever no backup Bolt gun!

Good luck!

I too favored my 470 Chapuis over the Heym in terms of shooting. Despite being shorter and not fitting as well, it was more pleasant to shoot.

I don’t think you can go wrong with the 450 3-1/4. My Westley has become my favorite double year. I’m still hunting for some Woodleigh 480gr RNSP’s as the Hornady DGX’s didn't expand at all and basically functioned as a solid. Gonna try some 450 and 500 swifts to see if I can get something to regulate/shoot that I’ve got a little confidence in.