full length sizing 450/400 3" issue, maybe?

[TheDoubleD]

I acquired 44 rounds of once fired brass with Ruger No. 1 in 450/400 3". (I would like to acquire 10 more) I am going to use this gun next spring for Cape Buffalo.

I have started reloading using RCBS dies.

With the sizing die screwed all the way down touching the shell holder, the neck is not sized all the way to the shoulder junction. It appears the sized neck is about .100 short of the shoulder junction-there is a section of the neck about .100 that is not resized. The section of the neck that is resized is .430 OD, the unsized section is .440.

Dropping the reload cartridge in the chamber the cartridge is protruding about .100. I can fully seat the cartridge with finger pressure or apply force to the lever to seat the cartridge. This is no big deal deer hunting. But Cape Buffalo hunting? I think I would prefer the cartridge to fully seat when dropped in the chamber.

I am considering acquiring bushing neck size from CH4D to address this problem.

Does anyone else have experience with this? Is this really an issue? How did you/do I resolve the issue?

 

[IvW]

I would suggest adressing the issue before using it on buffalo.

 

[shootist~]

What do the RCBS set-up instructions say?.

From memory, it's normally another 1/8 or 1/4 turn or so down from the die just touching the ram. That might not be the case with your 450/400, however. And of course, more down affects shoulder headspace as well.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Never had that issue. I reloaded 450/400 for a VC double and a Ruger #1 (that I still reload for but am about to let it go). My dies are Hornady.

Safe shooting

 

[davidg8480]

I had a similar issue with a Browning blr in 300 Win short mag someone suggested to me " Redding competition shell holder set" that fix my problem right up! You may want to look into that simple fix

 

[IvW]

Are you using the right shell holder?

 

[Capt_Oscar]

What do the RCBS set-up instructions say?.

From memory, it's normally another 1/8 or 1/4 turn or so down from the die just touching the ram. That might not be the case with your 450/400, however. And of course, more down affects shoulder headspace as well.

^^^^^^ (Try this). Possibly just a little flex in the press. When you have a case fully sized, ram handle down 100%. Then look at the junction between the shell holder and sizing die base. Bigger cases usually require that extra 1/8 to 1/4 turn to get the "full" length sizing.

 

[sestoppelman]

Agree with above. Turn your die down a bit further to achieve what RCBS calls cam over. This will likely get that last little bit done.
I have a number of guns that need this with reloads.
For hunting, especially for DG, I prefer to use NEW brass whenever possible. And even then, try each one for chambering ease before the trip.

 

[TheDoubleD]

If the die is in contact with the shell holder, turning the die in more isn't going to do anything except shorten the ram stroke. Once the die and shell holder meet, that is it.

But I do think you guy are on to something with the shell holder. RCBS says use the number 31 shell holder for 450/400 3", that also fit 50-90 Sharps. Hornady says use their number 25 shell hold which also is for 348 Winchester. RCBS says for 348 Winchester use their number 5 shell holder.

I have notice this RCBS 31 shell holder does not seem to fit the brass very well.

Off to the shop to rummage through the box of shell holders and see if I have a number 5 or 25.

 

[sestoppelman]

If the die is in contact with the shell holder, turning the die in more isn't going to do anything except shorten the ram stroke. Once the die and shell holder meet, that is it.

But I do think you guy are on to something with the shell holder. RCBS says use the number 31 shell holder for 450/400 3", that also fit 50-90 Sharps. Hornady says use their number 25 shell hold which also is for 348 Winchester. RCBS says for 348 Winchester use their number 5 shell holder.

I have notice this RCBS 31 shell holder does not seem to fit the brass very well.

Off to the shop to rummage through the box of shell holders and see if I have a number 5 or 25.

Not so grasshopper. Read the RCBS manual, they recommend doing this to remove any play from the press, which can cause this issue.
I have done this with lots of rounds, it works.

 

[davidg8480]

Give it a thought

 

[Inline6]

You have several things at play here.

1. Brass from a different gun, if that chamber is oversized on the NO1 you might not get it resized to work in your rifle (it's smaller).

2. Could have an out of spec die, it may require you to take the die to a machine shop and have them turn off the ram face of the die. Maybe a couple thou so that the brass will actually go further into the die. (Could have an out of spec press too).

3. You could be unluck and have some of both.

4. As a rule, if you are hunting DG always use new brass to make sure nothing like this happens. Always cycle you ammo through your rifle before hand. Don't want this to happen in the heat of the moment.

 

[shootist~]

After all else fails.....try following the manufacturer's instructions.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Not so grasshopper. Read the RCBS manual, they recommend doing this to remove any play from the press, which can cause this issue.
I have done this with lots of rounds, it works.
View attachment 479060

That simply takes the play out of the leverage system--it use to be referred to as knuckling over. They are calling it pop, I see, But its not going to get the case any deeper into the dies. T

Davidg8480 is on the right track.

 

[TheDoubleD]

You have several things at play here.

1. Brass from a different gun, if that chamber is oversized on the NO1 you might not get it resized to work in your rifle (it's smaller).

Yes always a possible issue. Sadly with the cartridge involved not many options. new unfired brass or ammo almost unobtainable. I haven't found any yet. But this brass does not seem to have this issue. (EDIT: I just found a box of factory ammo at Buffalo arms.)

2. Could have an out of spec die, it may require you to take the die to a machine shop and have them turn off the ram face of the die. Maybe a couple thou so that the brass will actually go further into the die. (Could have an out of spec press too).

Yes of course a possibility, but it doesn't appear to be the problem. Research seems to indicate a problem on RCBS behalf. They are recommending the same shell holder for 450/400 3" and 450/400 3-1/2". These two cartridges have different head dimensions. I have a lathe and can do this myself, and have back in my wildcatting days. I no longer have a tool post grinder, so if I choose this route I would have to get someone to do it for me. But there are easier, simpler and cheaper solution these days. A neck bushing die would be just fine and would have other uses instead of just this one.

I am however pretty convinced the shell holder is the problem.

3. You could be unluck and have some of both.

Doesn't appear to be the case ,

4. As a rule, if you are hunting DG always use new brass to make sure nothing like this happens. Always cycle you ammo through your rifle before hand. Don't want this to happen in the heat of the moment.

SOP of course and very good advice. But there can be exceptions and brass/ammo availability or in the case the lack of availability. And of course when you discover an issue cycling, solving the problem works also.

After all else fails.....try following the manufacturer's instructions.

Way far beyond that...but in this case it is looking more and more like the Manufacturer made a mistake. Only RCBS recommends the 31 shell holder of the 450/400 3" no other manufacturer does and it doesn't fit.

 

[shootist~]

Re: That compression thing. It happens and it ain't rocket science.

Lots of people, including me, measure and adjust the sized shoulders ("Cartridge Headspace)" of their reloads. Just part of the seizer die setup if you want to do so. Very minor adjustments in how you screw in the sizer die will easily the shoulder measurement .001" or more. If you are having to use the bolt, to cam-in a loaded cartridge, your sizer die is not adjusted properly. Hornady makes a tool for this. Probably others do, as well.

For Example:
I use a Redding 308 Winchester die for both a 308W - with tight chamber / near minimum headspace - And a Scar17 (and FAL) with much looser 7.62x51 chambers. I change the sized cartridge (shoulder) headspace between the two by using a .006" shim under the die when sizing the 7.62x51 brass. Otherwise I undersize/overwork the 7.62 brass - by that same .006", +/- .001".

I size the 308 brass to 1.608" at the shoulder (Vs the fired case measurement of 1.621") for a "cartridge HS of ~.003"; and I size the Scar17 brass to ~1.6235", (fired measurement= ~1.6295") for a Cartridge HS of ~.006" (with use of the .006" shim). Otherwise by 7.62 loads would have a cartridge HS of ~.011 to .012".

And it's easy to "feel" the difference (aka compression) in the up stroke pressure with and w/o the shim. Probably about 1/8 turn more down for the 308W setting, but possibly more. (I would have to break the lock ring loose to see exactly how much.)

 

[Nevada Mike]

... Off to the shop to rummage through the box of shell holders and see if I have a number 5 or 25.

I sold my ,348 Model 71 several years ago. If you need an RCBS #5 shell holder, I have one you can have. Let me know if you need it.

Mike

 

[sestoppelman]

That simply takes the play out of the leverage system--it use to be referred to as knuckling over. They are calling it pop, I see, But its not going to get the case any deeper into the dies. T

Davidg8480 is on the right track.

They call it cam over. What it does is ensure that the full amount of depth is reached by removing any play between die and shell holder.
When you full length resize by just setting the die to touch the shell holder without a case, and locking it down, it doesnt take into account the resistance of a case inside the die which can and does shorten the sizing process.

If you cant accept that you should probably argue with RCBS about it.

Another thing. Rimmed cases vary in thickness by brand sometimes. This can create the same tight feel that trying to use the shoulder for HS can. You can smoke the shoulder or felt tip it, and see if any rubs off on chambering. If it doesnt and its still tight, might be the rim.

Dont know about you but I have been reloading for over 50 years and RCBS has forgotten more than I know.

 

[Monsai52]

As an easy first step I'd contact RCBS. I'd also check the shell holder, if the shell holder is too thick it could be keeping the die from sizing as far down as it should. If that's the case before I started ordering other dies, I'd grind down the top of the shell holder to allow the die to size closer to the case rim. Should be an easy way to get close to the last 1/10" you're looking for.

Best regards,

 

[TheDoubleD]

Yes adding the 1/8 turn is part of the process. It's a given. But once the die and shell holder touch that is as as close as you can get. An 1/8 turn isn't going to get them any closer.

What the 1/8 turn does is close up the tolerances of die threads, toggle linkage and shell holder. Once that is done then it is as you said, it allows extra leverage to overcome the resistance. of the brass to assure it goes all the way in the die. but once the dies touch the shellholder that as far as it goes..

But what I am saying is when you install the sizing die to touch the shell holder, which includes the 1/8 turn and the case is still .100 short of full length sizing the neck, there is a problem.

I have contacted RCBS, I have also check other die makers and they are all using a different shell holder holder, not a one comparable to this one. When you look up the Die set on RCBS the say number 31 shell holder, as is this one. But when you go to the order page they suggest a number 5 shell holder.

I wonder if this shell holder is for the 450/400 3 1/2", that cartridge has a thicker rim.

As far as loading experience goes, I'll see your 50 years and raise you 3.

Thank you for the offer of the #5 I have two coming from 2 different sources.