for the distance experts among you

[Foxi]

 

[farmer_john]

Not seeing your point or question?

 

[RedTag]

I’m not usually a big fan of that channel but I like this video. It’s just a hoot to see these guys with all their space cadet kit missing shots they thought they had in the bag. I had an in-depth conversation with a long range shooting instructor some years back on this very topic. He was a former Army sniper and fully capable of connecting up to and including a mile away. He was firmly of the opinion that 400 yards is the outer limit for hunting, even for the experienced and practiced marksman. The logic being that hunting is hunting and war is war. Any hit is a good hit in war, but in hunting we must strive to make clean hits only.

 

[BryceM]

I've watched this video before and it's interesting. Some of their troubles were easily predictable. They were forced to take many shots from unstable setups that were a real handicap. That mirrors real hunting, and not every shot should be attempted on living creatures.

I'm of the opinion that people shouldn't try shots while hunting that they haven't mastered in practice. Some 800 yard shots are easier to make than some 100 yard shots. I completely missed a waterbuck at under 200 yards from an improvised, somewhat unstable shooting position. In retrospect, I should have waited for a better opportunity. Fortunately, he didn't go far and we were able to get on him again and get it done.

A few years back, I also had the opportunity to put down another hunter's wounded animal at 740 yards. The animal was on his way off the property we had permission to hunt. That sort of thing is incredibly gratifying. Of course, all of the rules are different if wounded game needs to be brought to bag.

In my opinion, some 800 yard hunting shots might be ethical for some shooters in some situations. For that to be true, everything has to be perfect. You need to actually know what your rifle will do on that day, at that elevation and at that temperature. Wind needs to be almost non-existent, or you need to be very, very good at reading the wind and adjusting. The shooting position must be absolutely stable and solid. The rifle needs to be level. A 1 MOA rifle probably isn't good enough. The situation shouldn't be rushed and the animal must be calm. Time of flight of the bullet is over 1 second at that range. A lot can change in that time. You need to use a bullet that is suited to the size of animal and the expected impact velocity at that range. Not too many bullets perform equally well at high velocity up close and at lower velocity far away.

Maybe most people trying long range shots are well prepared and up to the challenge. In reality, I sort of doubt it. The screwups don't make it to TV.

One this is for sure. Routinely shooting well at 1000 yards on steel makes you a much more ethical and humane hunter at 200 or 400 yards, which is why I enjoy doing it.

 

[RedTag]

I think one of the most important things to practice that I almost never see anyone practicing is shooting from standing and kneeling positions with a double sling wrap and a solid fore end hold. The prone and seated positions may be preferable but are not always realistic in the field. I have found myself in situations where deep snow or tall grass prevented anything other than a shot from the standing position.

 

[grand veneur]

I shot Ibex and Elk at longer range in Central Asia several times because there was no other option. I am talking about distances up to around 450 yards, and at that time I was good on training with the rifles I used. It would be a lie to say it always went well, because I lost an Ibex and had to track an Elk for hours under difficult conditions in the high mountains. Additional difficulties occurs when factors like altitude and steep shooting angles come into play in very high mountains. For all this reasons, long-range shooting at game remains an extremely risky business. Certainly, one should be trained for long range shooting when conducting certain hunts, but also in such cases this shots should really only be reserved for extreme situations and not be considered as a hunting discipline. Unfortunately, this is increasingly being presented as something like this and the Forums are full of self-proclaimed snipers who always hit everything at very long range. In addition, videos are being released that supposedly confirm all of this, but that don't convey the sad reality of these long-range shots on game.

 

[grand veneur]

Not seeing your point or question?

Shooting game at longer range is not in the reality what some braggarts try to convey on some Forums and Videos.

 

[farmer_john]

Shooting game at longer range is not in the reality what some braggarts try to convey on some Forums and Videos.

its a skill to be sure. But generally speaking you can get alot closer for a more ethical shot. Under 500m is easy shooting over 500 you start to get slot of variables. Im also lazy i dont want to have to drag something farther than possible.

 

[Foxi]

The problem with these forums is often the oversized egos of the supposed master marksmen.
I have been training dogs for 30 years and have often had to track down the shots of these great hunters.
Ultimately, it's all talk and indifference to the suffering of the animals. You never get the whole truth from them about how their hunting season went.
Just imagine the following scenario: these master marksmen, who never miss their target, would shoot at a leopard or buffalo from such distances.
An absolutely absurd idea that no one in Africa would entertain.
In our concession, anyone who makes such claims is kicked out.
Game is not a target for fun.
Ultimately, even the best marksmen only dare to shoot at game that won't fight back.
When faced with a grizzly bear in the Alaka Range at 500 yards, they would certainly think differently.

 

[farmer_john]

The problem with these forums is often the oversized egos of the supposed master marksmen.
I have been training dogs for 30 years and have often had to track down the shots of these great hunters.
Ultimately, it's all talk and indifference to the suffering of the animals. You never get the whole truth from them about how their hunting season went.
Just imagine the following scenario: these master marksmen, who never miss their target, would shoot at a leopard or buffalo from such distances.
An absolutely absurd idea that no one in Africa would entertain.
In our concession, anyone who makes such claims is kicked out.
Game is not a target for fun.
Ultimately, even the best marksmen only dare to shoot at game that won't fight back.
When faced with a grizzly bear in the Alaka Range at 500 yards, they would certainly think differently.

I also find egos to be annoying. Ive come across alot of those in my life. And from what ive seen of alot of hunters. They grossly everestimate their skills. Ive passed more deer than ive shot in my life because i didnt like the angle, distance or both. And even your militaru snipers.the average sniping engagement is typically under 500m

 

[pilar]

I also find egos to be annoying. Ive come across alot of those in my life. And from what ive seen of alot of hunters. They grossly everestimate their skills. Ive passed more deer than ive shot in my life because i didnt like the angle, distance or both. And even your militaru snipers.the average sniping engagement is typically under 500m

Then you would hate reading the **NOT**PERMITTED**.com forum, every single post is about
People shooting game @ 500-1000 meters, or people shooting big game with a.223 @ 500+ meters
It’s entertaining and frustrating at the same time reading those posts

 

[steve white]

Just for kicks, I bought the entire set of long range shooting books by Nathan Foster. The further I delved, the more I decided it is just too risky to shoot game at those long distances. It is almost maddening the number of variables which come into play, seriously.
Consider that you are aiming at a horizontal target, not a vertical one as with human on a battlefield. Then consider that elevation errors are more critical with the horizontal target. And elevation errors can EASILY come by misjudging range by 5-10 yards! Yes, out at 1000 yards everything shoots a rainbow arch! Don't even get started on the drops for something slow, like a 308.
Then you get into wind, raking shot effect due to wind, spin drift, correolis, parallax adjustment, canting, bullet BC, laser range finder focused on wrong object, or not calibrated, drop variations due to extreme spread of bullet speed, shooting up or down angles, elevation above sea level, humidity, temperature, and on and on and on. It can be done, especially with a correct reading with laser range finder, perfect load on perfect day, etc. SOMETIMES, but should it be done? And most people think that all the above are the most critical factors in making the shot--not so! It's the nut behind the buttplate that needs adjusting most often--can YOU make the shot, at all? How's your breath control, heart rate, nerves in general. Have you even practices enough, or ever received training? Do you care if you make a crippling shot?
Targets--sure, take all the shots you need, then high five. Live game with no do-overs? No.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Targets--sure, take all the shots you need, then high five. Live game with no do-overs? No.

Agree 100% I love shooting long range targets and the variables will overwhelm you once you go out far enough. A22lr at 200y is ballistically roughly equivalent to a 308 or 30-06 at 1000y. I shoot 22's with repeatable accuracy out to 300y all the time but a puff of wind is all it takes to miss and as temps change the dope also changes. Dope that worked on Tuesday on a cool day will miss on Saturday when it warms up. Spin drift is real but wind drift is usually more of a factor at least with the little rimfire. It still takes an exceptional 1/2moa or better rifle to do this with any sort of success. The 22 I use is able to consistently hit 1/2 dum dum suckers out to 100y most days. Not 100% but most of the time. Most of my centerfires cannot do that. When I try to take the 22 out past 400y the groups become so random as to make it impossible to hit a 12" tgt. Even at 400y the groups become egg shaped due to the weak quality of even the best 22lr ammo. Double digit SD's are the norm.

I hate the feeling of thinking I wounded or missed a game animal and for that reason alone, I avoid taking shots I am not certain about. That limits me to mostly 300y and closer.

 

[farmer_john]

Just for kicks, I bought the entire set of long range shooting books by Nathan Foster. The further I delved, the more I decided it is just too risky to shoot game at those long distances. It is almost maddening the number of variables which come into play, seriously.
Consider that you are aiming at a horizontal target, not a vertical one as with human on a battlefield. Then consider that elevation errors are more critical with the horizontal target. And elevation errors can EASILY come by misjudging range by 5-10 yards! Yes, out at 1000 yards everything shoots a rainbow arch! Don't even get started on the drops for something slow, like a 308.
Then you get into wind, raking shot effect due to wind, spin drift, correolis, parallax adjustment, canting, bullet BC, laser range finder focused on wrong object, or not calibrated, drop variations due to extreme spread of bullet speed, shooting up or down angles, elevation above sea level, humidity, temperature, and on and on and on. It can be done, especially with a correct reading with laser range finder, perfect load on perfect day, etc. SOMETIMES, but should it be done? And most people think that all the above are the most critical factors in making the shot--not so! It's the nut behind the buttplate that needs adjusting most often--can YOU make the shot, at all? How's your breath control, heart rate, nerves in general. Have you even practices enough, or ever received training? Do you care if you make a crippling shot?
Targets--sure, take all the shots you need, then high five. Live game with no do-overs? No.

LIttle over thinking but there alot of variables that become more exagerated as you go farther.
308 isnt a bad round at 1km but you got 3 seconds of flight time. A critter can do alot of moving in that time.

Ive done alot of shooting long range alot of situations for keeps. But hunting not that i wouldnt feel confident taking a lomger shot than most. I just feel its not at least for me the spirit of hunting. And honestly the farther away I shoot it at the farther i have to walk to go get it. But ive never huntdd from blinds or stands so my hunting styles a littke different than slot of folks. Because I move around a good bit.

 

[BryceM]

Yeah, it’s probably also important to remember that we all have experiences with different hunting styles and situations. I’ve hunted all my life and I’ve never sat in a blind, except for waterfowl. I’ve only rarely hunted dense cover. I’ve almost never hunted at low elevation and only rarely in high temperatures. What is common in Wyoming or Tajikistan is probably different in the East Cape or Alabama. Yet, we often extrapolate our own experiences into what we imagine others should be doing.

Hopefully, we all grow our own set of ethics, enjoy a sustainable passion and lifestyle, and respect the animals and our fellow hunters. Happy hunting!

 

[farmer_john]

Agree 100% I love shooting long range targets and the variables will overwhelm you once you go out far enough. A22lr at 200y is ballistically roughly equivalent to a 308 or 30-06 at 1000y. I shoot 22's with repeatable accuracy out to 300y all the time but a puff of wind is all it takes to miss and as temps change the dope also changes. Dope that worked on Tuesday on a cool day will miss on Saturday when it warms up. Spin drift is real but wind drift is usually more of a factor at least with the little rimfire. It still takes an exceptional 1/2moa or better rifle to do this with any sort of success. The 22 I use is able to consistently hit 1/2 dum dum suckers out to 100y most days. Not 100% but most of the time. Most of my centerfires cannot do that. When I try to take the 22 out past 400y the groups become so random as to make it impossible to hit a 12" tgt. Even at 400y the groups become egg shaped due to the weak quality of even the best 22lr ammo. Double digit SD's are the norm.

I hate the feeling of thinking I wounded or missed a game animal and for that reason alone, I avoid taking shots I am not certain about. That limits me to mostly 300y and closer.

Not sure about 22lr.
But rule of thumb
1 moa +/- per 20 degree change in temp from the one you zeroed for.

 

[Flbt]

Long distance live target shooting just sucks

 

[Flbt]

36%
And there target doesn’t move.
Wonder what the % would be if the target could move?

 

[grand veneur]

It remains a controversial topic, and unfortunately, there are hunting areas with game species where one often has no choice but to shoot from a longer distance. However, this is nothing new and has already concerned hunters from mountainous regions hundreds years ago. I read a german study from the 1930s on the topic. Even nowadays, it is not uncommon for some outfitters in Europe to point out to their clients that shooting at distances of around 300m is sometimes necessary for chamois hunting. But in the canton of Graubünden in Switzerland they don't have this problem because shooting at bigger game is legally only permitted up to 200m and the caliber of the rifle used must have a minimum of 10,2mm, which in any case severely limits very long range shots.

 

[farmer_john]

36%
And there target doesn’t move.
Wonder what the % would be if the target could move?

1.5 seconds from muzzel to 500m target. Thats alot of movement potentially