Fire Forming Question

[Nevada Mike]

I have several hundred new 308 Norma Magnum brass. The factory shoulder on new brass is about .021" shorter than my fire formed rounds I have. So I need to FF ALL my brass to a consistent length for loading. Is there any way to properly FF brass without incurring several hundred rounds of barrel wear on my new Brux barrel? I have heard some people use Cream O' Wheat, but never tried it and no idea exactly how it works.

Thanks.

 

[Delloro]

15 grains pistol powder, a small wad of TP, cream of wheat packed in tightly, small wad of TP, topped with a little wax or glue to hold things in.

A smear of oil or sizing wax around the shoulder to aid in filling out.

 

[skydiver386]

15 grains pistol powder, a small wad of TP, cream of wheat packed in tightly, small wad of TP, topped with a little wax or glue to hold things in.

A smear of oil or sizing wax around the shoulder to aid in filling out.

What he said.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Many thanks.

I expect that HS6, Bullseye, or other fast shotgun / pistol powder will work?

 

[JimP]

For forming my wildcats I use same load as my hunting rounds. In thousands of rounds I've never had a problem and have found that they are just as accurate as the cases that have been formed and then loaded.

 

[KEC]

The cream of wheat method works great; I have used it quite a few times forming .375 H&H to 8mm Rem Mag. The only thing I can add from my experience is check your chamber area often for little cream of wheat "donuts" left behind from combustion, canned air would take care of any debris that you might find.

 

[shootist~]

I suggest you just load it and go hunting. Or use some for practice and hunt with the once fired brass. I see no difference in my 338 WM loads between the two (accuracy or V).

If you are a long range shooter and shooting a tweaked custom chamber, then different story. Those guys (a couple I used to know anyway) screwed on an older barrel and did the pistol powder / cream of wheat thing.

Unfortunately .0015 to .0020" is normal for belted magnums - factory loads or new brass.

 

[FlyGuy]

Load them and shoot them.
The difference in accuracy between fire formed and virgin brass is negligible.
Otherwise, use the virgin brass for practice loads.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Thank you all. The "just load and shoot them" space is where I am noow. I do not want to work up loads in hulls with two different internal volumes, and this is a belted cartridge, so I'd like to maximize hull life and prevent case stretching.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If you want to minimize stretching I would size them up to a larger caliber (338 maybe) the size them back to 30 until you get a crush fit when closing the bolt. This will keep the case head against the bolt when firing.
I doubt the load will be any different with the ff and non ff cases as the case will meet the chamber before full pressure.

 

[JimP]

Forming cases with a belted case you will first head space off of the belt and not the shoulder since the case needs to be formed in the chamber. From then on you can forget about the belt and use the shoulder.

I have never had a problem with excessive case stretching while forming cases when I have head spaced off of the belt or a rim for the case forming process. But it never hurts to check the case after forming and trimming so that all of your cases are uniform.

 

[riogrande]

First insert a spent primer (for safety) in an unformed case. Fill the case with Bullseye® pistol powder to the top of the neck (DANGER, never to be fired). Then pour this charge into the pan of your powder scale and weigh the charge. Divide that amount by 10, so that 1/10 of the total volume will become your starting load. Now take that 10 percent load for your case and put it in your normally primed case. It may take some testing to get a load that fully forms the case. Tear a single sheet of toilet paper in quarters, insert one quarter as a wad over the powder charge. Now fill the rest of the case with your inert filler (corn meal, or fine ground hot cereal, etc., dry of course). You will want to place a wad of some sort over the cereal so it does not spill. Bees wax, bullet lube, or toilet paper work, it must be light enough so that the wad can be blown down the barrel without doing any damage.




You are ready to fireform a case. Keep in mind that even without a bullet these loads could be deadly, so use all normal gun safety practices. Pointing in a safe direction fire the first load. If it is not fully formed, bump your 10 percent load by one-half grain at a time until you get a fully formed case. It is possible to generate dangerous pressures if you use too much powder in these inert filler loads, so be careful. The interesting thing about this method is that it will often form cases without any loss to ruptures when a factory load will cause ruptures.

L.R. Wallack wrote this method up for American Rifleman. After describing the method he said, “I then did 10 cases with this load with no splits and all formed nicely. Such success has been practically unheard of, as anyone who has formed cases for this wildcat well knows. I have no hesitation, therefore, in recommending the method.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Forming cases with a belted case you will first head space off of the belt and not the shoulder since the case needs to be formed in the chamber. From then on you can forget about the belt and use the shoulder.

I have never had a problem with excessive case stretching while forming cases when I have head spaced off of the belt or a rim for the case forming process. But it never hurts to check the case after forming and trimming so that all of your cases are uniform.

This is exactly where I am going with this. Using the Cream O Wheat thing saves components, powder and barrel cycles. Once all is FFd then I can develop ONE load that works and go shooting.

 

[Nevada Mike]

First insert a spent primer (for safety) in an unformed case. Fill the case with Bullseye® pistol powder to the top of the neck (DANGER, never to be fired). Then pour this charge into the pan of your powder scale and weigh the charge. Divide that amount by 10, so that 1/10 of the total volume will become your starting load. Now take that 10 percent load for your case and put it in your normally primed case. It may take some testing to get a load that fully forms the case. Tear a single sheet of toilet paper in quarters, insert one quarter as a wad over the powder charge. Now fill the rest of the case with your inert filler (corn meal, or fine ground hot cereal, etc., dry of course). You will want to place a wad of some sort over the cereal so it does not spill. Bees wax, bullet lube, or toilet paper work, it must be light enough so that the wad can be blown down the barrel without doing any damage.




You are ready to fireform a case. Keep in mind that even without a bullet these loads could be deadly, so use all normal gun safety practices. Pointing in a safe direction fire the first load. If it is not fully formed, bump your 10 percent load by one-half grain at a time until you get a fully formed case. It is possible to generate dangerous pressures if you use too much powder in these inert filler loads, so be careful. The interesting thing about this method is that it will often form cases without any loss to ruptures when a factory load will cause ruptures.

L.R. Wallack wrote this method up for American Rifleman. After describing the method he said, “I then did 10 cases with this load with no splits and all formed nicely. Such success has been practically unheard of, as anyone who has formed cases for this wildcat well knows. I have no hesitation, therefore, in recommending the method.

Does the powder HAVE to be Bullseye, or can I use something like 700X?

 

[Nevada Mike]

If you want to minimize stretching I would size them up to a larger caliber (338 maybe) the size them back to 30 until you get a crush fit when closing the bolt. This will keep the case head against the bolt when firing.
I doubt the load will be any different with the ff and non ff cases as the case will meet the chamber before full pressure.

Well, the FF cases that I have already done are longer in the shoulder than the new cases by .021". I can visually see the difference. Perhaps I am nit picking but I have time to experiment with this so I will.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

I have made lots of 416 Taylor rounds from 458 win mag brass and load them the same as once fired brass for my rifle. Even on the bench I am not a good enough marksman to see any difference between the fresh formed and once fired brass. Myself I would load my hunting load and hit the field, save one working of the brass. My 308 Norma shoots very well with factory or reloads. The 180gr Oryx is an awesome bullet for deer, and the 250gr in my 358 Norma has proven itself on moose and black bear more than once.
Good luck on load development and enjoy your Swede.

 

[JimP]

This is exactly where I am going with this. Using the Cream O Wheat thing saves components, powder and barrel cycles. Once all is FFd then I can develop ONE load that works and go shooting.

You are way over thinking this.

Just load the cases and go shoot them. If you start counting the pennies you'll never enjoy it.

But since it sounds like you are counting pennies, what bullets are you going to use? Along with the powder and primers?

There are hundreds of loading books out there for doing what you plan, have you read any or just depending on others opinions ?

 

[Nevada Mike]

You are way over thinking this.

Just load the cases and go shoot them. If you start counting the pennies you'll never enjoy it.

But since it sounds like you are counting pennies, what bullets are you going to use? Along with the powder and primers?

There are hundreds of loading books out there for doing what you plan, have you read any or just depending on others opinions ?

H4831sc and VV N560. 180 grain Accubonds / Partitions / Swift Sciroccos. Primers are Fed GM 215s. My shelf of loading books is about 6 to 7 feet long. Problem is loading component companies stopped developing loads for the 308 NM some years ago, so there is not much data and almost none for recent powders.

I am not in a position that requires me to pinch pennies.

 

[JimP]

Why use premium bullets when any bullet will work? Along with magnum primers?

As I have mentioned, find a starting load for what you want and use this load for the fire forming.

Some times the lighter loads will not allow the case to fill the chamber to get the final case dimensions, especially when using a belted case the will head space on the belt and not the shoulder

 

[riogrande]

I have only done this once. I would think any fast burning powder similar to Bullseye would work.