Fear Mongering on AH about trophy import bans

[WilhelmM]

I'm referring of course to the many posts that have been made about trophy import bans over the last few years. Guys, I get it. You are concerned about the future of hunting as an industry and seeing clickbait headlines from the Daily Mail and Wall Street Journal can be upsetting. Remember that these articles are just that, articles. They have no real effect on hunting itself 99.9% percent of the time and it's mostly baseless propaganda. It's been happening since 2015 and since then nothing much has actually happened. Remember how the media thought it was imminent that Africa would ban hunting soon after? I do, and it must be really disappointing for the animal rights lobby that nothing has actually happened. Trophy import bans are just a pathetic and spiteful attempt to try and subvert African countries and their constitutions. You can tell by the manner of the articles and headlines just what they really think about us, stupid Africans too helpless to say 'no.'

What I'm trying to get at is that the frequent posts about import bans are often inflammatory and have little basis in reality. Unless it's something important, please keep it to yourself or at least don't make it bigger than it really is. I mean no disrespect to anyone here and I hope you all find your discussions to be productive. Thanks

 

[C.W. Richter]

And, it's really twisting it when someone posts something along the lines of: "Guys, Look what they just did in the UK! This is definitely happening in the USA!!" LOL The USA the UK is not! (We are a huge expanse of wilderness/hunting & gun-friendly lands/landowners, laced with lib cities on the fringes.) We vote and pay their salaries (and for their inner-city voters). They must respect those facts.

 

[Red Leg]

And I think anyone who loves this sport and isn't deeply concerned about the growing urbanization of our societies, the complete loss of attachment by most voters in those societies (including Southern Africa) with any outdoor activities, and the efforts by many to legally attack hunting and the shooting sports is part of the problem.

We need to publicize these anti hunting and shooting efforts wherever they occur, we need to support organizations that lobby and take legal action on our behalf, and we need to make our individual voices heard at the ballot box and in direct contact with our representatives.

To pretend the anti-hunting effort is no great risk to our sport and our culture is the epitome of naivete'. Forums like this provide a a great opportunity to disseminate the latest information concerning our adversaries.

The sky absolutely will fall if we are not vigilant.

 

[WilhelmM]

I think we're all concerned here on AH. And I think I'm done explaining my opinion for now. People seem to like taking things out of context and simply won't budge even if you explain yourself over and over.

Really a pity how human nature overtakes reason. I'm not downplaying any of the threats facing hunting, I'm saying we need to be realistic but again that seems to be going over most people's heads.

 

[mark-hunter]

I am in full agreement, with @Red Leg.

 

[Randy F]

And I think anyone who loves this sport and isn't deeply concerned about the growing urbanization of our societies, the complete loss of attachment by most voters in those societies (including Southern Africa) with any outdoor activities, and the efforts by many to legally attack hunting and the shooting sports is part of the problem.

We need to publicize these anti hunting and shooting efforts wherever they occur, we need to support organizations that lobby and take legal action on our behalf, and we need to make our individual voices heard at the ballot box and in direct contact with our representatives.

To pretend the anti-hunting effort is no great risk to our sport and our culture is the epitome of naivete'. Forums like this provide a a great opportunity to disseminate the latest information concerning our adversaries.

The sky absolutely will fall if we are not vigilant.

+1

 

[BRICKBURN]

The simple, real impact from the "click bait".
Airlines change a policy due to Anti pressure and magically it is a defacto hunting ban.
Dominoes fall, one airline after another.
A local airline that has an incredibly small chance of ever seeing a Cape Buffalo trophy.... but they will not accept the shipment.

 

[WilhelmM]

The simple, real impact from the "click bait".
Airlines change a policy due to Anti pressure and magically it is a defacto hunting ban.
Dominoes fall, one airline after another.
A local airline that has an incredibly small chance of ever seeing a Cape Buffalo trophy.... but they will not accept the shipment.




View attachment 442575

FFS, if hunters won't go to Africa because they can't get their worthless trophy back home then it's on them. I'm not not going to be sympathetic towards them because it's plain fucking stupid.

 

[375Fox]

FFS, if hunters won't go to Africa because they can't get their worthless trophy back home then it's on them. I'm not not going to be sympathetic towards them because it's plain fucking stupid.

How much money have you spent on international hunting to have any understanding of situation (or any hunting)? Simple fact is that if trophy importation is restricted or banned, most international hunters will spend their money elsewhere meaning less money goes into wildlife economy in Africa and wildlife loses value compared to other land uses. The loss of value of lions and elephants being prime examples.

 

[WilhelmM]

How much money have you spent on international hunting to have any understanding of situation (or any hunting)? Simple fact is that if trophy importation is restricted or banned, most international hunters will spend their money elsewhere meaning less money goes into wildlife economy in Africa and wildlife loses value compared to other land uses. The loss of value of lions and elephants being prime examples.

Okay... and? You should not be seeing the trophy as the be-all-end-all. The experience should be the priority but unfortunately people focus on materialistic possessions.

There are so many examples of replicas looking exactly like the animal hunted yet that's apparently not good enough. There's a reason why organizations like Meat Eater tend to distance themselves from trophy hunters.

 

[mark-hunter]

I wouldnt mind having replica.

 

[WilhelmM]

I wouldnt mind having replica.

Thats great, but why not everybody else? I'm unsure if I'll get any honest response.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

FFS, if hunters won't go to Africa because they can't get their worthless trophy back home then it's on them. I'm not not going to be sympathetic towards them because it's plain fucking stupid.

Personally I will continue to hunt in Africa regardless of whether or not I can bring my “worthless” trophy home. Have said it before many times and just recently again on another thread, I will not support the end of hunting in Africa or anywhere else by choosing to let that stop me. Anyone who does in my opinion is supporting the anti-hunters.

But I like to think I’m a realist. As such as much as it bothers me, I understand an import ban is moving in the direction of a de facto ban on hunting. For me I’ll continue to hunt and perhaps put my taxidermy dollars towards doing a video of the hunt instead. That still enables me to relive the hunt and in a way that taxidermy does not.

But I respectfully recommend you not use terms like “worthless” to describe peoples trophies. It just doesn’t make sense to alienate those who’s support you need. And I don’t think anyone is asking for your sympathy.

 

[mark-hunter]

@WilhelmM
I think there are many who will accept replicas. You can see how popular is tuskless ele to hunt, No trophy there. There is already a "non trophy" culture within trophy hunters community.

 

[375Fox]

Okay... and? You should not be seeing the trophy as the be-all-end-all. The experience should be the priority but unfortunately people focus on materialistic possessions.

There are so many examples of replicas looking exactly like the animal hunted yet that's apparently not good enough. There's a reason why organizations like Meat Eater tend to distance themselves from trophy hunters.

If you work hard your whole life and save the money to go on one safari. They want to bring your trophies home. If you tell this person he can’t he will go on a trip where he can. It’s only the experienced African hunters with multiple trips who are ok to not get their trophies sent home. You won’t attract many new African hunters without being able to bring trophies home.
Your comparison of meat Eater and African hunting is incorrect. It’s a completely different model and wildlife value system in North America vs Africa. If we stopped hunting for 10 years in the United States our game populations would explode. If legal hunting was stopped for 10 years in Africa most areas outside a national park would be devoid of game particularly outside South Africa. Game has to have a value in Africa or other land uses will take over.

 

[rookhawk]

I'm referring of course to the many posts that have been made about trophy import bans over the last few years. Guys, I get it. You are concerned about the future of hunting as an industry and seeing clickbait headlines from the Daily Mail and Wall Street Journal can be upsetting. Remember that these articles are just that, articles. They have no real effect on hunting itself 99.9% percent of the time and it's mostly baseless propaganda. It's been happening since 2015 and since then nothing much has actually happened. Remember how the media thought it was imminent that Africa would ban hunting soon after? I do, and it must be really disappointing for the animal rights lobby that nothing has actually happened. Trophy import bans are just a pathetic and spiteful attempt to try and subvert African countries and their constitutions. You can tell by the manner of the articles and headlines just what they really think about us, stupid Africans too helpless to say 'no.'

What I'm trying to get at is that the frequent posts about import bans are often inflammatory and have little basis in reality. Unless it's something important, please keep it to yourself or at least don't make it bigger than it really is. I mean no disrespect to anyone here and I hope you all find your discussions to be productive. Thanks

I think there are many merits to the “rational fear“ of import bans. Ignoring them paints a false picture of reality. I’m speaking solely as an American hunting the SACD nations of Southern Africa. I consider the inability to import to be a ban, even if something isn’t outright banned.

The things I see:

Elephants from Zimbabwe and elsewhere have not been “wholly allowed” for US import since 2016. The law says USFWS has 60 days to perform a case-by-case determination if an import shall be permitted. After numerous lawsuits, the hunters just prevailed and USFWS is working on permit reviews with a 5 year backlog and priority given to A.) Named plaintiffs, and B.) Namibian exports. USFWS claims they will then process all others. Processing means adherence to the law and due process eventually, it does not mean permit approval. We have not yet witnessed the successful criterion that USFWS will apply to the 5-years of backlogged applications. It may be they decide none meet their arbitrary criterion, or 1%, or 10%, or 50%. TBD. I call that evidence of a ban.

CITES Appendix 1 animals used to be allowed. Black Faced Impala. Bontebok. Oribi. I believe they still are if you get the USFWS special permit. However, the antis are working (succeeded?) in requiring your name be public record with your application. Thus, antis will be able to “dox” you for applying. Enjoy the loss of employment, company solvency, and the occasional pipe bomb in your mailbox. I call that evidence of a ban.

Numerous anti-hunting organizations have picked their ambassador species. These are Leopard, Giraffe, and Spotted Hyena at the moment. (Brown Hyena is already not allowed in US) I remind hunters to select these species soon if they wish to hunt them ever. Presently, USFWS is not honoring the law with 60 day reviews for Leopard and many people are waiting. Depending how long they delay beyond what the law allows, this is another de facto ban.

I believe the USFWS after numerous lawsuits just recently processed 25 Tanzania lion permits that had languished for about 7 years? Only took multi-million dollar lawsuits to compel the USFWS to review that which the law says they had 60 days to review. I consider this evidence of a ban since when compelled to follow due process, the lawful citizen prevailed. If you lacked the means to fund the legal battles, you were de facto banned from import.

Every time a hunter comes on here and explains they want to hunt Buffalo as their first dangerous game animal, I always chime in and say “don‘t do it, its the wrong priority”. I think a bovine species is more “cow like” and thus the uninformed masses care less about them. They will be legal for import for a long time. But the rest of the big-5? Definitely more dubious futures.

None of the above is sky is falling irrational fear, its opinion supported by facts. It’s never mattered more where you hunt and which operators and PHs you use. You’ll need all the science, financial reporting, and documentation you can muster to get your rights recognized on import.

 

[375Fox]

@WilhelmM
I think there are many who will accept replicas. You can see how popular is tuskless ele to hunt, No trophy there. There is already a "non trophy" culture within trophy hunters community.

Both of these options are also at very reduced prices. Outfitters in wild areas really need high value animals like lions and bull elephants to properly manage and improve areas.

 

[rookhawk]

Both of these options are also at very reduced prices. Outfitters in wild areas really need high value animals like lions and bull elephants to properly manage and improve areas.

Rough costs (in Zim) to the operator (their costs, not yours) is $4000 for the tuskless permit and $10,000 for a trophy Elephant permit.

Whether you choose to export or not, whether is 30lb ivory or 105lb ivory, the individual permit costs to the operator are the same. Thus, there is a “how low will the prices go” floor is not going to go down, especially with variable costs of concessions, anti-poaching, government fees, fuel surcharges, and all the rest going up for the operator.

So they won’t get any cheaper, they can’t. Will they get more expensive? No, because export is uncertain and we’ve already determined that people will not pay for a trophy elephant hunt if they cannot get the ivory. The past two years most operators didn’t sell all their quota. Looking at premium elephant hunts for trophy bulls the prices have gone from $65,000 down to $30,000 over the past several years.

Supply is ample, unsold permits as evidence. Demand is low, as evidenced by declining prices and yet unsold quota still persists.

Conclusion is an obvious one: People will not pay for trophy hunts that result in ivory replicas. I think that’s silly, but what I think doesn’t matter, only the facts.

 

[IdaRam]

“And I think I'm done explaining my opinion for now.”
Well then Wilhelm, for hell sakes why did you start an entirely new thread on the issue?

“People seem to like taking things out of context and simply won't budge even if you explain yourself over and over.”
You are correct, you’ve stated your opinion over and over in many ways and the majority of members here still seem to disagree with you. Maybe that should tell you something. Rather than presuming you are correct and more fully enlightened than the rest of us, maybe you need to examine your positions and practice a bit of introspection and self reflection regarding your superior attitude.
Folks here on AH are passionate about Africa, the people and the wildlife and continuing the ability to hunt there. Expecting people not to express anger and outrage at the f’king idiots who wish to take that away, and to make sure others are adequately informed about these efforts, is just asinine.

 

[rookhawk]

“And I think I'm done explaining my opinion for now.”
Well then Wilhelm, for hell sakes why did you start an entirely new thread on the issue?

“People seem to like taking things out of context and simply won't budge even if you explain yourself over and over.”
You are correct, you’ve stated your opinion over and over in many ways and the majority of members here still seem to disagree with you. Maybe that should tell you something. Rather than presuming you are correct and more fully enlightened than the rest of us, maybe you need to examine your positions and practice a bit of introspection and self reflection regarding your superior attitude.
Folks here on AH are passionate about Africa, the people and the wildlife and continuing the ability to hunt there. Expecting people not to express anger and outrage at the f’king idiots who wish to take that away, and to make sure others are adequately informed about these efforts, is just asinine.

Without emotion or calling anyone names, the proof is in the pudding. Outlay the capital. Take the risk. Feel the full force of bureaucracy. Wait for results. Reach back to the team here when you’re in the trough of disillusionment wondering if you’ll ever get your trophies once you’ve outlaid $100,000. We’ll be here, bottle of bourbon in hand, listening to your fears and uncertainties compounded because you spent the money and may not get what you already paid for.