English doubles will soon……..

[Woodcarver]

Falls into the category of too much of a good thing....

Used to build billet coil heaters for tool makers out of copper tubing. Protection of the skin and good ventilation was paramount. Like a lot of things, lead included, the volume, and form, play a major part in the speed and impact the consumption has on a body.
I've read the studies on the impact lead shot/bullets are reported to have on waterfowl and the condor. Any study done by the state of California is, by definition, suspect. The ones done by DU and other reputable organizations are less definitive of the cause/effect that the CA condor studies have claimed. They supported the move to steel shot out of an abundance of caution, not because they thought all the ducks would die of lead poisoning.
Lead dust in an indoor range is very likely to exceed a safe level without good ventilation. Lead dust in my backyard range, won't ever reach an unsafe level. Casting is always done with proper ventilation; again, the process produces a higher level of concentrated fumes (often with unknown contaminants that get burned off). Welding produces even more hazardous fumes, so I've always been in the habit of paying attention to what I'm breathing in as I've been sticking metal pieces together for over 40 years.
Bottom line for me is, lead bullets/shot don't create an environmental hazard, nor do they create a hazard to me in consuming furred or feathered game shot with them. Can't remember ever eating a penny, but probably did as a kid. At 63, and an avid shooter and reloader, I'm not worried about lead poisoning (or copper) even though the copper plumbing in my house is mostly soldered with the old lead based solder (newer repairs/replacement was done with the lead free stuff).
Doubt this is a topic that will ever be settled, certainly not before I've long since returned to dust (much like the argument over whether the 375 is the best buffalo cartridge).

 

[SaintPanzer]

We don't have to worry about lead killing Condors. We have electric generating wind turbines for that.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I beg to differ. In California they have done studies that prove that lead is harmful in the American style of hunting.

They found that condors have a mass dying off right around and after deer season every year. Why is that? Leaded bullets. Hunters shoot an animal, gut it, with most of the lead fragments in the gut pile, and then the condors eat the gut piles and die.

Many birds eat rocks to help their gizzard grind up grains. I’ve personally seen that after a trap shooting range went up near where I knew a large flock of turkeys lived, within a year all the turkeys were gone. By that I don’t mean dead, but that’s most likely what happened as all of a sudden I just… stopped seeing them.

They have done studies on hunters and found significantly higher lead content in their blood than the average person. Significant enough to actually measure the average lifespan loss of a hunter compared to normal, and measure higher rates of Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and lung cancer even among non smoking hunters.

They have measured the air quality when shooting and found that shooting moderate amount hard cast bullets in an enclosed space brings the lead pollution in the air high enough to be considered an OSHA violation.

Competitive shooters that shoot lead bullets have been found to have also significantly higher lead content in their blood than average, some more than triple the average despite some of them even claiming they wear gloves when reloading to prevent touching the lead as much as reasonably feasible.

You said yourself that a high enough amount of lead (and copper) in your blood can kill you. Why would you go so far to point out how dangerous it can be when it’s in your blood, and ignore the fact that it IS in your blood.

The reason copper is safer is because unlike lead, it doesn’t vaporize when shot. It doesn’t leave residue. When animals are shot with even the most rapidly expanding copper bullets, the bullet only breaks into, at most, 5 pieces. Once those pieces are taken out and weighed, the combination of the 5 have 98% weight retention, with most of the last 2% being the plastic tip. At best a lead bullet loses 20-30% of its weight, and at worst 70% or more, with X rays of dead game showing that a scientifically significant amount (by that I mean enough to measure its effects on you) is in the meat, much of it outside of the bloodshot area.

We’d still be using leaded gasoline if it wasn’t for scientists pushing to ban it for the sake of everyone’s health. The literal fall of Rome can be attributed to the rise of using lead as a sweetener in the wealthy class’s food causing insanity, paranoia, delirium, and people to get measurably dumber. Even the ancient Roman’s knew that lead was poisonous, they just didn’t care because it tasted good and was very useful.

Forgive me if I sound harsh, this topic is extremely important to me. We found alternatives for lead in literally every industry other than shooting. It’s high time we did the same. The auto industry tried to claim there is no alternative for lead in gas, but when regulation changed they rapidly made innovations and made it work.

I agreee lead is hazardous, deadly. I agree that shot and the smaller calibers of lead projectiles more so resemble small rocks that birds will "ingest" into their crawl, eventually killing them.

However, the pure lead bullet and lead bullet weight retention is questionable. Mainly because modern lead bullets are a mix, semi pure lead. At best 80% lead, 20% other metal(s).

Thereby how much lead, antimony, tin, or other metal or combination of metals were lost?

I have recovered various lead round ball and conical bullets, 45, 50, 60, 72, and 80 caliber, from game that I have shot that weren't pass throughs; some of them were in such good shape I could have used them again on game.0

I have also cleaned my muzzleloading firearm barrels enough to know it's a PITA to get just the bulk of the lead out of the rifled barrels and only a bit easier but still, the smoothbores also retain some lead fowling in the barrel/barrels.

Thereby how much weight was lost/retained in the barrel?

Visit a museum that has displays of Revolutionary and/or American Civil War artifacts pay special attention to the lead balls and conical bullets recovered. Most are 100% intact and capable to be used again.

As for solid lead, hollow base, and hollow point pure, semi pure lead, conical bullets. These bullets deform mostly into "coin" when they hit, pass through bone.

Thereby these larger lead ball and conical bullets are too large for any bird to ingest into or use in there crawl.

TERM: Coin: the ball or bullet flattened out resembling a coin....of quarter size and shape.

FYI: IIRC: the last US lead mine was forced to close not too many years ago due to EPA regulations. The company had self maxed out every safety upgrade they could without rebuilding. IIRC, the mine had been operational since or before the American Civil War. Pennsylvania's lead mine before closing some years before the last lead mine closed, had been in operation since or before the French and Indian War or the American Revolutionary War. It's been a few years since I read the article in the National Muzzle Loadering Rife Association magazine Muzzle Blast.

I'm not sure which is worse lead or any of or all of the other contaminates in our water supply. I will say some of those contaminates are a whole lot more hazardous than lead.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Copper | ToxFAQs™ | ATSDR

wwwn.cdc.gov

And just like that it was an oh sh't moment.

I actually was curious and was going to read the source you posted. "Was" being the key word.

Then I saw it was published by the CDC.

Enough said.

 

[Woodcarver]

Read an article last year (or the year before) that was talking about the lead mine in MO that got shut down during covid when over half the people working there all got sick. My understanding is that the mine has since re-opened and is producing again. Part of the supply chain issue for those of us in need of projectiles is the lack of stateside lead production. It would be good to see some of those other mines brought back into production. The EPA definitely played a part in shutting them down.

 

[Ray B]

As a hunter education instructor, in our "in-service" training a couple years back we had a demonstration of lead bullets with all copper bullets. The bullets were shot into water then the pieces were collected. The results showed the lead core bullet had broken into dozens of tiny slivers of lead and chunks of copper jacket material. Where as the copper bullet had stayed together with very little breaking off. There conclusion was that if the lead bullet were shot into a big game animal there would be slivers of lead contaminating extensive parts of the animal while the all copper bullet allowed for an animal that would be safe to eat. It was all impressive to someone who had little knowledge of bullets. I didn't get the opportunity to ask the "trainers" 1. why would a big game hunter use a bullet designed for explosive effect on small animals? 2. What were the results when using big game bullets such as BBCs, Woodleighs or North Forks where weight retention exceeds 90%?

 

[Woodcarver]

And just like that it was an oh sh't moment.

I actually was curious and was going to read the source you posted. "Was" being the key word.

Then I saw it was published by the CDC.

Enough said.

I know, lol. But it was the 1st and shortest in the quick google search. There are quite a few (better, and more in depth) articles about the risks of copper poisoning.
Most likely only worth reading if you are involved in something that can produce very small, high speed particles (like grinding). That's why the typical injuries caused by a sharp end of tubing are only a hazard if they cut deep enough to bleed badly. The small high speed stuff can get into the blood stream, that's when it's dangerous.
Some of the stuff I had to read when working in that machine shop (early 80s) was rather graphic in describing hazards with a lot of what we did. A lot of people that weld have no clue what's in flux for instance. Some of that sh!t is really nasty to breath. Not to mention burning the zinc off galvanized metal.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Falls into the category of too much of a good thing....

Used to build billet coil heaters for tool makers out of copper tubing. Protection of the skin and good ventilation was paramount. Like a lot of things, lead included, the volume, and form, play a major part in the speed and impact the consumption has on a body.
I've read the studies on the impact lead shot/bullets are reported to have on waterfowl and the condor. Any study done by the state of California is, by definition, suspect. The ones done by DU and other reputable organizations are less definitive of the cause/effect that the CA condor studies have claimed. They supported the move to steel shot out of an abundance of caution, not because they thought all the ducks would die of lead poisoning.
Lead dust in an indoor range is very likely to exceed a safe level without good ventilation. Lead dust in my backyard range, won't ever reach an unsafe level. Casting is always done with proper ventilation; again, the process produces a higher level of concentrated fumes (often with unknown contaminants that get burned off). Welding produces even more hazardous fumes, so I've always been in the habit of paying attention to what I'm breathing in as I've been sticking metal pieces together for over 40 years.
Bottom line for me is, lead bullets/shot don't create an environmental hazard, nor do they create a hazard to me in consuming furred or feathered game shot with them. Can't remember ever eating a penny, but probably did as a kid. At 63, and an avid shooter and reloader, I'm not worried about lead poisoning (or copper) even though the copper plumbing in my house is mostly soldered with the old lead based solder (newer repairs/replacement was done with the lead free stuff).
Doubt this is a topic that will ever be settled, certainly not before I've long since returned to dust (much like the argument over whether the 375 is the best buffalo cartridge).

Same here if Commiefornacatia did the study your going to die if you live in or visit. Only the politicians don’t come with toxic cancer causing warning labels.......ok and the members of the brain dead, mentally disfunctional funky alphabet.

I could careless what a Commiecalifornacate study says. I have more faith in any organization study that is non bias so long as it checks all the boxes of an indepth study.

At 63....yeah....you sound like my 86 yo stepdad.......whose too old and too dumb, to care. He doesn't worry or care how it affects him, swearing up and down it doesn’t. which it does. He doesn't give a sh't how what he does will affect his children, his grandchildren and great grandchildren.

Now about all of those contaminates that get burned off. FYI: elementary school science class; Some of those contaminates just temporarily change form becoming either more toxic or they return to their respective original former hazardous form. Simplified ie. water, ice, water or combines with other nearby chemical particles to form hydrochloric acid or acid rain.

My grievance on pollution is there are far more harmful chemicals in the air we breathe. Lead is a minute problem. But hey who cares about the increase in cancer, disfigured and still born babies, 100 of the 10,000 of us in the community have jobs making more money than we were.

 

[RockSlinger404]

South African perspective:

Scapegoating Lead-Based Ammunition: Why Bullets Aren’t the Smoking Gun in Vulture Declines - WRSA

The widespread decline of vulture populations across Africa has rightly become a significant conservation concern. While various anthropogenic threats contribute to this crisis, the narrative often points to lead-based ammunition as a primary culprit for unintended, secondary lead poisoning in...

www.wrsa.co.za

 

[Rifleman97]

South African perspective:

Scapegoating Lead-Based Ammunition: Why Bullets Aren’t the Smoking Gun in Vulture Declines - WRSA

The widespread decline of vulture populations across Africa has rightly become a significant conservation concern. While various anthropogenic threats contribute to this crisis, the narrative often points to lead-based ammunition as a primary culprit for unintended, secondary lead poisoning in...

www.wrsa.co.za

That’s one hell of a BS study. They claim that 12% of birds autopsied had mild to severe lead poisoning, but because that lead poisoning likely caused them to die of other means, that lead poisoning isn’t the issue.

I guess I should reword. The study seems to have done their research well but the title means they have the absolutely wrong conclusion.

Even though the cause of death was not the leading cause, the fact that more than 1 in 10 had lead poisoning, many being severe is concerning as hell.

They even state in the study that they do believe birds with gizzards accumulate large amounts of lead due to their gizzard grinding up the lead and rapid oxidizing it. But then they say something along the lines of “but modern sportsmen shoot very accurate bullets so it’s unlikely to be caused by bullets” like… what does accuracy have to do with the fact that they eat gut piles with all sorts of lead fragments in them?

Good research, awful conclusion, very obvious they were even trying to do the research with the conclusion that lead was harmless before they even started collecting data.

 

[Hunt anything]

As a hunter education instructor, in our "in-service" training a couple years back we had a demonstration of lead bullets with all copper bullets. The bullets were shot into water then the pieces were collected. The results showed the lead core bullet had broken into dozens of tiny slivers of lead and chunks of copper jacket material. Where as the copper bullet had stayed together with very little breaking off. There conclusion was that if the lead bullet were shot into a big game animal there would be slivers of lead contaminating extensive parts of the animal while the all copper bullet allowed for an animal that would be safe to eat. It was all impressive to someone who had little knowledge of bullets. I didn't get the opportunity to ask the "trainers" 1. why would a big game hunter use a bullet designed for explosive effect on small animals? 2. What were the results when using big game bullets such as BBCs, Woodleighs or North Forks where weight retention exceeds 90%?

Why would you test bullets by shooting them into a non-compressible substance like water? Seems like it would be better in ballistic jell with bone structure.

 

[steve white]

Bill Crawford, a stock maker/retired machinist in Fort Worth once told me that his parents had to give him a spanking to stop him from tearing off another little piece of the lead vent covers up on the roof AND CHEWING IT LIKE GUM. Said all the boys were doing it, and it had a good, firm "bite" to it. Shades of paint chips!
I would imagine that leaded gasoline in the past has already deposited more lead in the roadside soil than every shot ever fired in history, doubled. Environmental cleanup is as big a job as you want to make it.