Elephant Hunt with Muzzle Loader

Hogpatrol

Silver supporter
AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
5,382
Reaction score
10,970
Location
Delaware, USA
Media
74
Articles
4
Member of
Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
Hunted
RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
Quinn, Way too much misinformation, disinformation and incorrect or baseless assumptions in this thread to adequately refute in one reply. Please read my email to you, subject line: Smokeless muzzleloading.
 

Hogpatrol

Silver supporter
AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
5,382
Reaction score
10,970
Location
Delaware, USA
Media
74
Articles
4
Member of
Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
Hunted
RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
I would think in most states, to hunt with MZ/BP one must use either black or black substitute. I know in my home state of WA it is so. That energy figure you quote is actually about 5900 ft/lbs. Still thats huge power. But again, why? Just because something is possible doesnt mean its desirable or practical. Why not just use a cartridge gun either bolt or double? Much more sensible and practical. BTW, some states do treat MZ guns as "firearms" and require FFL transfer. ATF may not require it but some states do.
Why use a compound bow instead of a stick bow? What is more sporting? Having to make your first shot perfect or having a bolt gun with four rounds so you can be sloppy because you have three left? I've watched the outfitter videos and the youtube videos on African hunts. Most hunters are LOUSY shots and are a disgrace. I wouldn't hunt wiith ANY of them. I hunted ML in Africa. I killed with the first and only shot. I worked all year to become proficient enough to hunt and kill with ONE SHOT. Bolt gun with 4 or more shots? Why not an autoloader with 20 rounds? Isn't that more "practical"?
 

enysse

AH ambassador
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
11,667
Reaction score
4,067
Media
136
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
1
Member of
Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
Hunted
Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
My two cents: I don't believe muzzleloaders should be shooting smokeless powder, it defeats the purpose.
And I do hate crossbow hunters hunting achery season unless they have a disability.
And any 375 H&H and up is a smart idea for BIG GAME.
 

Hogpatrol

Silver supporter
AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
5,382
Reaction score
10,970
Location
Delaware, USA
Media
74
Articles
4
Member of
Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
Hunted
RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
A projectile does not care what propels it. Its velocity squared times bullet weight divided by 450240 for muzzle energy regardless whether black or smokeless.
Assuming he can push the bullet at 2500 fps, ME would be 4580. I'll leave it up to the PH experts to know if that's enough for an elephant.
 

A.Sharpe

AH veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
145
Reaction score
14
Website
www.sharpeknives.com
Media
6
Hunted
USA , including Alaska
Not to beat a dead horse. We all have our opinions here and probably will not change each others here.
The original question was can a muzzle loader be capable of taking an Elephant? I'd say yes. With a smokeless powder gun it wouldn't be a problem for the weapon.
From what I understand. primitive weapons season is to give the bow hunters and BP guys a fair chance at game before they become ultra alert as deer do as the season goes on. Realistically a 100 to 150 yd shot is a long shot with a T/C Hawken. 60 to 80 is extreme for a compound bow. (I know their are master marksmen who can make longer shots) If you bring in smokeless rifles where 200 and 250+ are realistic kill ranges , why even have a primitive season? That being said "I'd still love to have a ..50 cal Double rifle muzzleloader that would use smokeless powder."
 

sestoppelman

AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
6,826
Reaction score
5,555
Media
164
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Member of
NRA, NA Hunt Club
Hunted
Tanzania, Botswana, Zimbabwe (2), Namibia (2), South Africa (2)
Why use a compound bow instead of a stick bow? What is more sporting? Having to make your first shot perfect or having a bolt gun with four rounds so you can be sloppy because you have three left? I've watched the outfitter videos and the youtube videos on African hunts. Most hunters are LOUSY shots and are a disgrace. I wouldn't hunt wiith ANY of them. I hunted ML in Africa. I killed with the first and only shot. I worked all year to become proficient enough to hunt and kill with ONE SHOT. Bolt gun with 4 or more shots? Why not an autoloader with 20 rounds? Isn't that more "practical"?
We seem to be arguing apples and oranges here. Why not this, why not that? We are all happy you you took your ML to Africa and did well, no problem. Was it BP or smokeless, just curious. Point is as I said earlier, in some if not most states using smokeless in a ML would not be legal during ML or primitive season, that is the point of them, to use the more primitive weapon or method. Other countries, who knows? I assume it would be fine in any African country provided the outfitter/PH was happy with the performance of gun and shooter. Have at it. I dont think anybody using a bolt action repeater goes hunting with the thought, "if I am sloppy and screw up I have 3 more rounds!". Thats an unfair characterization of a large group of hunters. How about this? You hunt with your chosen weapons, and I and everybody else will hunt with theirs, wherever it is LEGAL. That way all are happy.:cool:
 

flatwater bill

AH elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,572
Reaction score
2,094
Media
21
Hunting reports
Africa
4
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
NRA endowment member/Life member
Hunted
NAMIBIA, RSA, KYRYG, KAZAKSTAN, MOZAMBIQUE,MEXICO, BOLIVIA, PERU, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, CANADA, NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, SPAIN,
I shot my first smokeless powder burning muzzleloader in 2008. The charge was 70 grains of Re-7 driving a 290 grain bullet at about 2500 fps. Almost identical to my favorite 375 H&H load. What exotic and edgy company made this rifle......................Savage. Many posting on this thread seem unaware that these muzzleloaders are now common place. I never fully understood why anyone would want one............but that has been answered by this thread as well..........................FWB
 

flatwater bill

AH elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,572
Reaction score
2,094
Media
21
Hunting reports
Africa
4
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
NRA endowment member/Life member
Hunted
NAMIBIA, RSA, KYRYG, KAZAKSTAN, MOZAMBIQUE,MEXICO, BOLIVIA, PERU, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, CANADA, NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, SPAIN,
Quinn............................thanks for the question. Muzzleloader types are divided into many classifications by many people, but one of the most useful is this: Is the muzzleloader 1. Traditional, or 2. Modern? Much of the confusion in this thread arises from this distinction. Your client is arriving with a modern muzzleloader. It will likely perform very similarly to a modern cartridge rifle of, say, a few years back. And that will be pretty darn good.
Traditional muzzleloaders considered by their makers and their users to be entirely suitable for elephant were made in the past and are still being made. They are not your typical .54 Hawken deer rifle. I doubt many actually make the trip to Africa. One current manufacturer advertises his BP guns as producing "power at the extreme". I have been told that they have cleanly killed a lot of elephant. They are powerful by any definition of the term: energy, penetration, or especially....recoil........................FWB
 

AZDAVE

AH elite
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
2,120
Media
156
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Hunted
South Africa, Alaska,lower 48
I would flat out ask him. "Who builds this muzzle loader? What is the caliber? What is your load? and expect him to shoot it so you can verify the zero when he gets there. Also he will have to coordinate with you to get what he needs for caps and powder as it is illegal to fly with caps and loose powder in a canister.

330gr barnes in what caliber? in 416 or 458 or 50 all would have not a very ideal Sectional density

I shot traditional muzzle loaders for elk and deer here in the US, I have shot everything from 45cal to 8 bore. My favorite Elk gun is a 12 bore underhammer, it is a 72Cal 550gr round ball, using musket caps and 190gr of FFG swiss black powder the ball is going 1800fps at the muzzle. If you look at the old days african hunters shot 8 bore as their main rifle and 4 bore as a stopping rifle and even a 4 bore (1750gr round ball 350-500gr of black powder) didn't give penetration to the brain of frontal shots 100% of the time.

Like most everyone else that has posted here don't see a muzzle loader for Elephant as a wise idea. that is my .02 cents worth
 

Tam Dl

AH veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
103
Reaction score
52
"I don't think it's right for those guy's with the smokeless powder gun's to be allowed to hunt during primitive weapons season."

In those states that truly hold to the primitive weapons aspect of this, say that require one to use flintlocks, they probably do follow your views, and not allow the use of in-line and all the new stuff.

To explain it:

1) Early folks tried get these special seasons for weapons of sverely reduced capacity;

2) Game departments allowed them in part based on the fact that the impact on the resource was minimal/acceptable;

3) Gageteers and commercial interests adopt new technology to make the BP and Archery seasons acceptable to people with minimal skills or comitment, who simply want the chance to hunt longer or to get another tag.

4) the gear may make the hunters using it more effective, but since hunter numbers are down and game numbers are up in many places, 2) above remains OK even with the cheater gear.

5) The sports are transformed by the number of people using the new gear to the point where the old/real gear is no longer typical. So you need to describe real archery as "traditional" in order to distinguish it from compounds. Some day this will happen to compounds when X-bows take over.

6) some people who now know only the situation in 5) say to each other "hey, let's go to Africa"

Does this make sense? Not at first blush, but it is all part of the way stuff works in NA with commercial interests, inventiveness, and public hunting as the basis of the sport.

"Having hunted smokeless muzzleloaders, I respectfully disagree with that premise. For example, I could say, I don't think it's right for a guy to use ANY compound bow during archery season. It defeats the purpose Make it so he has to pull back 80 lbs to shoot. How would that go over in large African game hunting or ANY North American hunting. Do you think we should ban anything with a letoff? Hog"

I think you have a point on the archery thing, but it only works if that is the right decision in that case. In many places you could put x-bow into the archery picture as they are the default bow where I hunt. Compounds are some kind of zealot bow for keeners. Traditional archery is hardly even in the picture.

As it happens a lot of African states do have restrictions that require poundages of 80 pounds or a lot more to be used. These are based on the needs of the game though, not just to make the thing harder for archers, which I guess was your point regarding a thing we don't see required of archers. As it happens archery hunting for the most part did not traditionally use heavy bows.

Let-off is a bit of a myth. At the point of transition to compounds, a time I lived through. There were folks who shot recurves with sights, and rests, and releases. The guy shooting a hunting weight recurve that way was doing some serious work. But for the most part since, trad has meant some kind of snap shooting method, while compound guys hold and aim. Modern cam systems require a shooter to do a lot more work to draw the bow (at comparable poundages), and while there is let-off, at a similar point in the cycle, the arrows is long gone for most trad shooters. (A recent trend over the last 10 plus years has been trad shooters dropping draw weights a lot and using some hold system also. Mostly target archers are doing this.) Some of the science on this they teach at elite shooting schools gets a lot more complicated, but suffice it to say, ti doesn't really support the idea that compounds are easier to shoot. Of course they are a lot easier in some respects, like maintaining skill, reduced practice time, flatter trajectory. But these issues do not necesarrily translate into bigger bags. Most traditional archers when describing their gear will point out how much more challenging trad gear is, but then slip in some reasons as to why it is actually easier to shoot. Some of these reasons are real, and some are not, but it isn't all on the compound side.

On thing I have done at various times is go through the arsenal of gear I have for compound and trad shooting/hunting. Obviously gear changes all the time. But for the most part, all the trad gear I use is superior to what is available to compound archers. Even with the bows, there are many ways in which trad gear is superior to compound gear. Of course compounds do have some serious advantages too, that are decisive in certain situations.
 

Hogpatrol

Silver supporter
AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
5,382
Reaction score
10,970
Location
Delaware, USA
Media
74
Articles
4
Member of
Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
Hunted
RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
Food for thought. Let's ditch the bows and firearms and go back to what worked for thousands of year in Africa and other places, loincloths and spears. Now that's hunting!
rolling.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Paolo Mauritania

AH veteran
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
126
Reaction score
37
Media
2
Articles
2
Hunted
Mauritania-Senegal border
My two cents. The Banded Solid 300 & 350 grains comes in .375 caliber round head, having shot flint-lock smoke-poles for years, I'd comment that the chap must have a real custom made smoke-pole to be able to shoot smokeless, but the powder load shouldn't be too different from a standard large game .375 cartridge. While I do not see the point of getting a custom muzzle-loader with these features, it's up to him. In the old days and 8 gauge RB with behind something like 200-240 drams of powder used to be preferred even to conical by the great hunters of the 19th century; must have been like shooting a naval cannon but the stopping power by concussion was pretty good; didn't kill it in the head but it surely stopped a charge. Howard Hill in the 50's killed three bull elephant with a 115# LB and arrows weighing 1700 grains (aluminum), 42" long, with a lungs shot that achieved about 30" penetration , on the carcass he tried a head shot, couldn't reach the brain from 15 years.
Sometimes rich people hunting is like aviation...............too much plane for the pilot.
 
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Damon Engel wrote on Saul's profile.
Hello! I noticed your E Type in your avatar. What year is it? I have a '69 that looks identical, minus the wire wheels. My car has the steel rims, as I understand it,a more expensive option, but I like the wire wheel much better!
pamtnman wrote on Timothy Doyle's profile.
Interested in the 450/400 dies. I have PayPal. Thank you
Hunt booked 2022
ve7poi wrote on ZANA BOTES SAFARI's profile.
See you in May 2022
twenty days with you time seems to have slowed now after booking lol
tarbe wrote on Royal27's profile.
Current ETA to Buc-ees is 11 am or we can meet you there about 2 hrs later in the way back.
 
Top