Elephant caliber

[AJ Peacock]

I couldn't resist,

AJ

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I imagine that's not a short list.

A bunny shooting a .222 (~6 lb rifle, 3-4 ft lbs recoil) would be like you shooting a 300 lb rifle that still produced as much recoil as a .577 Tyrannosaur. That's an artillery piece.

Suppose you weigh 200 lbs and have a 10 lb .458 WM with 70 ft lbs of felt recoil. About 35% your body weight.

If you were a bunny, weighing 4 lbs, firing a .22 LR weighing .2 lbs (the same ratio as a 10 lb rifle to a 200 lb man), we would multiply the felt recoil of a typical .22 by the weight ratio. A 6 lb .22 generates about .2 ft lbs of recoil, so 6 lbs/0.2 lbs = 30, we multiply 30 x our 0.2 lb bunny sized safari rifle, brings us back to 6 ft lbs of felt recoil. That is 150% of the bunny's body weight. Almost 5x the recoil relative to you shooting a .458 WM.

We can do this with bullet diameter too. An elephant's heart is 2 feet across, a .375 is 24/64th", a .458 is 29/64th". A human heart is 2.5 inches across, a ratio of 9.6 to 1. So if we scale according to that ratio it's like arguing about whether a .039 caliber (0.99 mm) or .0477 caliber (1.2mm) is an appropriate caliber for a rabbit to hunt a human. It's a silly argument. It's a silly platitude to "use the biggest gun you can manage" on an animal 50x larger than the hunter. Let the PH do that.

Reading all this theoretical posting, made me assume you’ve never been to Africa, let alone hunted an elephant. Hopefully you’ve at least shot a rabbit or two to prepare for them potentially shooting back at you.

 

[DLSJR]

I’ve only shot 2 elephant bulls, the first with .458 Winchester and second with .470 NE. Each performed very well, though the 500 grain Hornady solid on first elephant did not. It was bent with the rear end flattened. But, we did dig it out of a dead elephant!

I’m keen to do another elephant bull hunt and hopefully several more. In all likelihood I’ll be shooting my .416 Hoffman with a 400 grain Cutting Edge solid. That’ll be an excellent elephant cartridge. However, I’ve also got an itch to get another double and if I do it’ll most likely be a 470 NE.

.375… I recall Roy Vincent telling me back in the early 1980’s that Zim Parks had been going away from the .375 H&H when shooting elephants because they had a problem with over-penetration and hitting unintended elephants. And that was with bullets we’d consider inferior today. It wasn’t due to lack of success with the cartridge, it was due to it exiting too often. As a client, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot an elephant with a .375 and a good flat point solid, even though I’d prefer the .416 or a 470.

 

[Austin AH]

Reading all this theoretical posting, made me assume you’ve never been to Africa, let alone hunted an elephant. Hopefully you’ve at least shot a rabbit or two to prepare for them potentially shooting back at you.

Well I was hoping this would be a thread to learn about hunting elephants. Is it not? The information about SD and bullet selection and first hand accounts and even anecdotes of PH's using/allowing or not allowing. 375 H&H seems interesting and useful.

The "theory" is pretty straightforward. Elephants are very big, humans are comparatively very small. Forces that feel very big to us, will seem much smaller to them. Advice like "use the biggest caliber you can shoot well" is so vague that it's useless advice for a hunter.

Everything from .318 Westley-Richards (a full millimeter smaller and 2/3 the energy of a .375 H&H) to .505 Gibbs has been mentioned. W.D.M. Bell supposedly killed 800 elephants with precise shot placement using a 7x57mm Mauser. Flipper Dude himself posted an excerpt calling .375 H&H practical, romanticizing the .404 Jeffrey and scoffing at .458 Win Mag as something that people who only know about Africa from old magazines choose, but for whatever reason when I made a general observation that the elephant is so big it probably wouldn't know the difference between any legal caliber he made what appeared to be a condescending remark, and when I pointed out his excerpt said something similar he said that actually he shoots the biggest caliber he can. Why do you think he responded to my observation (that I felt and pointed out was in agreement with his .404J comment) the way he did?

 

[skydiver386]

"Shoot the most powerful caliber you can" is good advice, BUTT, how do know what caliber that is?

There is almost no practical way to try enough Big Bores that you could really figure this out, unless you had lots of friends with a variety of rifles they were willing to let you test drive. To buy and try progressively more powerful calibers would be prohibitively expensive.

To me the only logical answer is to find a Big Bore Shoot, and very slowly work your way up. If you ask politely, some really decent folks would meet up with you at a range and let you shoot one of their toys. Better to drive a few hours and spend money on gas than spend thousands to find you've bit off more than you can chew.

 

[Russ16]

Well I was hoping this would be a thread to learn about hunting elephants. Is it not? The information about SD and bullet selection and first hand accounts and even anecdotes of PH's using/allowing or not allowing. 375 H&H seems interesting and useful.

The "theory" is pretty straightforward. Elephants are very big, humans are comparatively very small. Forces that feel very big to us, will seem much smaller to them. Advice like "use the biggest caliber you can shoot well" is so vague that it's useless advice for a hunter.

Everything from .318 Westley-Richards (a full millimeter smaller and 2/3 the energy of a .375 H&H) to .505 Gibbs has been mentioned. W.D.M. Bell supposedly killed 800 elephants with precise shot placement using a 7x57mm Mauser. Flipper Dude himself posted an excerpt calling .375 H&H practical, romanticizing the .404 Jeffrey and scoffing at .458 Win Mag as something that people who only know about Africa from old magazines choose, but for whatever reason when I made a general observation that the elephant is so big it probably wouldn't know the difference between any legal caliber he made what appeared to be a condescending remark, and when I pointed out his excerpt said something similar he said that actually he shoots the biggest caliber he can. Why do you think he responded to my observation (that I felt and pointed out was in agreement with his .404J comment) the way he did?

I think your theory is interesting as a thought experiment. I could be applied to other large animals like buffalo and hippo.

It also shows how theory and numbers don’t quantify everything. Your logic is sound but may number of people who have shot numerous elephant and buffalo report differences when moving to larger cartridges. None of the various measurements (caliber, energy, knock out value, SD, bullet weight, et al) fully capture the differences in a single number.

It reminds me of sports analytics. Every few years someone comes up with a new wonder state that explains what really makes a team or player good. We went from passer rating to QBR to expected yard per attempt and on and on. In reality our eye tell is who the best players are and the score at the end tells us what the best teams are. Most people who have shot an elephant probably think the gun and cartridge they used are just great for elephant. Is it truth or confirmation bias?

That’s what makes the discussion fun.

 

[SGW]

I shot my elephant with a m70 375 h&h. The elephant didn’t take step, shot it right in the ear. You don’t need another gun for the job, but you might want one though which is ok to!

 

[SStomcat]

Trying out something before you get to own one is a great idea, however other than renting them in Africa I'm not aware of any means you can do so. Working your way up is a good idea. I for one went the other way around 470 ne --> 9.3 -->30-06. Perseverance is important, along with right technique.

 

[Nevada Wapati]

Only shot one elephant. Side brain shot at 60 yards with a 416 Rem Mag, handloads 400 grain CEB solid at 2,405 fps. Complete pass through. Dropped on the spot.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

The "theory" is pretty straightforward. Elephants are very big, humans are comparatively very small. Forces that feel very big to us, will seem much smaller to them. Advice like "use the biggest caliber you can shoot well" is so vague that it's useless advice for a hunter.

The advice you call vague isn’t all that vague or useless. You know what the biggest gun you’ve shot is and how it felt and how the recoil felt on your shoulder. Are you just gonna jump to a caliber you’ve never shot because someone on the internet says you need it when it doubles, triples, or even quadruples that gun? Does that sound like a good theory when planning a DG hunt for something so much larger than you? Will you just jump to a 500, 577 or 600; do you think you’ll shoot it well? Do you think you’ll want to practice with it enough to become proficient? Will you maybe develop a flinch, start to jerk the trigger, or develop another bad habit?

I know hunters here in Texas who scoff at a 300WM saying it’s too big and recoils too much. This hunter is going to need to work their way up and likely stop at the minimum legal caliber.

There are plenty of examples of hunters killing buffalo, elephants, and rhinos with smaller guns like you cited. I’d have zero issues hunting elephant with a smaller caliber than the legal minimum and pick my shots based on that caliber choice. People will say elk hunting with a 6mm or 25 cal is too small but the meat on my freezer and some of the racks on my wall would disagree.

 

[David jr]

why lead bullets, when you can shoot better bullets like CEB 450 Safari Solids. You are handicapping your self with lead. I know lead has taken 10's of thousands of Elephant but Mono's are better

Yes all modern bullets are a whole lot better than lead bullets .
Lead bullets today are very different than what was used to win the US freedom 250 years ago.
Palmer coatings, smokeless bullet lube, and foundry certified lead alloy today lead bullets can and are being shoot at 3000 fps today with moa accessory.
The 458 lott with a 700 gr lead bullet will do what a 500 double does so well.
With the modern solids today it is just to easy to shoot completely through any elephant and maybe wound another elephant behind your target elephant.
Just as some have already pointed out on this topic complete pass through on their elephants .
To me it is not hunting with the modern bullets of today to easy at close range or long range.
I have shoot a whole lot more ammo down range and shot a whole lot more north American animals than most people have .
I will be hunting Africa for the sport and enjoyment of the hunt, adventure seeing new country , new wild animals and making new friends along the way.
I will not just show up shooting my target animal and get on plain and go back home.
To me that is not what a African safari is all about that is why I will only shoot the proper lead bullets while on Safari and enjoy knowing I took my animals with something I made just like the old timers did many many years ago.
Sorry for being so long winded but you ask why lead bullet ?
Because I can is the proper answer to your question .
I am not trying to get any one feathers all ruffled up this is just me .
I wish every one on this forum to have a great Safari .
A lot of you on here have helped me on some questions I have had about my first Safari coming up in 2027
Thank all of you a great wealth of information .

 

[LimbNoMo]

Ontario Hunter? Are you sure on this last part?

You can take a liking to someone, but then tire of them. Can like someone but decide what you don’t like about them outweighs what you do.

Don’t necessarily have to think they’re a bad person. Just someone with whom you don’t care to interact.

 

[grand veneur]

As I have already mentioned before, I have shot six elephants using various cartridges; first the 460 Weatherby Magnum, then the 500 Schüler, and the last one with a borrowed rifle caliber 416 Ruger. However, that is far from making me an expert. The elephants I shot with a brain shot would likely have dropped dead just as easily with the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum, but when it comes to the heart shot, I hold a different opinion. For this reason, one should use the heaviest caliber one can still handle.

As some members have written; how can you find out which cartridges you still can handle?

The only way to do it is by slowly working your way up through a vast amount of shooting, using progressively larger calibers. Firing a few shots with a big bore rifle says nothing about how well you master it in the long run. Unfortunately, something like that only works if you own such rifles and can shoot them regularly. I own some big bore rifles that I have acquired over the last 30 years, with which I have practiced and been able to establish my upper limit. However, that does not mean that I use a rifle at this limit for hunting. Nevertheless, shooting with one remains a good practice.

My advice would be to buy a cheap rifle caliber 458 Win Mag for example and practice with it regularly. After that, you can decide which direction it is all going, a little more or a little less caliber.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well I was hoping this would be a thread to learn about hunting elephants. Is it not? The information about SD and bullet selection and first hand accounts and even anecdotes of PH's using/allowing or not allowing. 375 H&H seems interesting and useful.

The "theory" is pretty straightforward. Elephants are very big, humans are comparatively very small. Forces that feel very big to us, will seem much smaller to them. Advice like "use the biggest caliber you can shoot well" is so vague that it's useless advice for a hunter.

Everything from .318 Westley-Richards (a full millimeter smaller and 2/3 the energy of a .375 H&H) to .505 Gibbs has been mentioned. W.D.M. Bell supposedly killed 800 elephants with precise shot placement using a 7x57mm Mauser. Flipper Dude himself posted an excerpt calling .375 H&H practical, romanticizing the .404 Jeffrey and scoffing at .458 Win Mag as something that people who only know about Africa from old magazines choose, but for whatever reason when I made a general observation that the elephant is so big it probably wouldn't know the difference between any legal caliber he made what appeared to be a condescending remark, and when I pointed out his excerpt said something similar he said that actually he shoots the biggest caliber he can. Why do you think he responded to my observation (that I felt and pointed out was in agreement with his .404J comment) the way he did?

There is a lot of condescending on this site. Only those who hunt "wild" Africa with double rifles while wearing thousand dollar felt hats and Rolex watches can speak with any authority. Or at least they think so. Their "big shot disease" seems to be endemic to a certain geographical area in the US, but has spread to a worldwide pandemic. Thankfully my dad, who was raised in the Depression hunting rabbits and bullfrogs to feed the family, vaccinated me early on. "Confirmation bias" is an obvious symptom.

As to shooting through a collection of thumper guns to see which is the biggest the shooter can handle: that's baloney. Just another big shot "bigger-is-best" symptom manifestation. I shot my first buffalo with a lowly 375 H&H plain-jane bolt rifle. One shot through the heart and it was done. And I had previously shot that rifle just once at the range earlier that day. Never fired a thumper gun before that (except one novelty shot with 500 Nitro as a teenager). I killed my second buffalo with the same rental rifle, again with just one shot to check zero before hunting. Put two shots into him but the first was mortal. Know how to shoot ... in the field. I think that is more important than what you shoot. Or how much you can spend. I'm confident my "homemade" 404J could kill an elephant if I wanted it to ... because I know how to shoot (note that I did not say "know how to shoot it"). 404J is certified legal for dangerous game by authorities who know more about killing those animals than I ever will. That's good enough for me. I don't need to waste a lot of money and my fragile retinas blasting away a truckload of different guns to determine my threshold for pain. Yes, some people need to see how big they can grow. That's their hobby and they enjoy it. Yay for them. Just don't criticize others who don't share the same passion.

 

[grand veneur]

I don't know how one can determine where your limit lies, other than by shooting various big bore rifles. As I wrote, a cheap rifle caliber 458 Win Mag is sufficient if you train with a 500gr bullet and a maximum load.

 

[Mountaineer]

The beauty of a 458 win mag is you can load it to meet your max recoil level. CEB make 325 to 500 grain solids. Barnes makes 300 to 500 grain softs. So hand loaders or those using custom ammo manufacturers have a large recoil window to work in.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum is well suited for brain shots on elephant from any angle, but quite marginal for body shots on bull elephant.

.458 Winchester Magnum is adequate for elephant PROVIDED that your ammunition is capable of propelling a 450Gr-500Gr bullet at a velocity above 2100 FPS. This can be accomplished through hand loading but Barnes and Hornady ammunition both manage to accomplish this velocity (of the two, I personally prefer the stronger monolithic bullet construction of Barnes Banded Solids).

.458 Lott is a very very reliable caliber for elephant. Period.