Dreaded Talley Scope Crimp

[Foxfyre]

I bought a set of talley 1" QD rings and finally had everything in place to install the BNIB-old-stock Monarch African. I have the FAT torque wrench. Did everything per the written instructions. I even halved the torque on the top screws. Still crimped the scope tube ahead of the objective lens. The only thing I didn't do was degrease the threads before torqueing... though at those torque numbers (again, half the recommended) that should not have mattered. Very disheartening.

Call me crazy, but I think it's a bit of a design flaw to have two screws to set the clamping force? Alternating between one and the other (like wheel lug nuts), I don't think you can actually get even tension between the two at the specified torque (20 in-lbs, or for me, 10-12 in-lbs) before the tube deforms. One screw centered would be just fine and wouldn't have that issue.

Possible solution?
Small favor is that the crimp is ahead of the objective on these scope since that lens is set way far into the scope tube. There is a chance it doesn't affect the scope function itself. The only problem is that the ring doesn't hold much tension anymore because the crimp very slightly reduces the diameter of the scope tube. What do you guys think: get some g-flex epoxy and glue the ring on and hope for the best?

 

[deewayne2003]

Did you lap the rings to take out the high spots on the finish?

 

[Red Leg]

Have used Talleys for at least 25 years on many rifles and have never had that "dreaded" event occur. I have also never had the need to lap a set.

 

[RLL]

I have seen 3 Nikons of that vintage crimp like this. I suspect it’s the tube material and wall thickness. Sucks when it happens. I would use liquid electrical tape to shore up the gap. In the future, the tape comes of with no marks or residue when you decide to do something different.

 

[rookhawk]

I bought a set of talley 1" QD rings and finally had everything in place to install the BNIB-old-stock Monarch African. I have the FAT torque wrench. Did everything per the written instructions. I even halved the torque on the top screws. Still crimped the scope tube ahead of the objective lens. The only thing I didn't do was degrease the threads before torqueing... though at those torque numbers (again, half the recommended) that should not have mattered. Very disheartening.

Call me crazy, but I think it's a bit of a design flaw to have two screws to set the clamping force? Alternating between one and the other (like wheel lug nuts), I don't think you can actually get even tension between the two at the specified torque (20 in-lbs, or for me, 10-12 in-lbs) before the tube deforms. One screw centered would be just fine and wouldn't have that issue.

Possible solution?
Small favor is that the crimp is ahead of the objective on these scope since that lens is set way far into the scope tube. There is a chance it doesn't affect the scope function itself. The only problem is that the ring doesn't hold much tension anymore because the crimp very slightly reduces the diameter of the scope tube. What do you guys think: get some g-flex epoxy and glue the ring on and hope for the best?

Did you full torque the bottom screws to 25 inch pounds first? Did you put oil on the scope (kroil, thinnest choice) for adjusting reticle and eye relief second? Did you tighten the top screws evenly in succession back and forth easing up to no more than 20 inch pounds?

Things that can go wrong: Not using loctite to increase viscosity on the screws. Oiling the screws that reduces friction which could result in over-tightening.

 

[Foxfyre]

Did you full torque the bottom screws to 25 inch pounds first?
Yes.

Did you put oil on the scope (kroil, thinnest choice) for adjusting reticle and eye relief second?
I used grease on the scope body to reduce marring the scope body as I aligned the scope reticle and adjusted the eye relief. Grease did not enter the screw holes. I did not remove the factory oil on the screws which may be a mistake.

Did you tighten the top screws evenly in succession back and forth easing up to no more than 20 inch pounds?
Yes, alternating but to a lower torque of 10 in-lbs.

Things that can go wrong:
Not using loctite to increase viscosity on the screws.
Loctite would be a lubricant till it dried, wouldn't it? It would increase ring tension for the same screw torque.

Oiling the screws that reduces friction which could result in over-tightening.
I left the manufacturer oil on the rings and screws.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've ended up using permatex ultra black RTV gasket maker: it has good adhesion without being impossible to remove, remains somewhat flexible so that it is vibration resistant (though not as much as grey RTV), is oil resistant, and is a black color that almost disappears. The screws get a coat of vibratite (a soft thread locker to keep them from backing out), the bottom screws are torqued per instructions, the top screws are barely tightened at all to allow the RTV to dry. I will test torqueing them to 5-10 in-lbs later today.

 

[Levergunsite]

Don’t glue it. The crimp is ugly and the ring will never hold right again, pull the ring, check the scope carefully, and either live with a carefully bedded setup or replace the damaged ring, and maybe the scope if it starts showing optical issues.

 

[Foxfyre]

Don’t glue it. The crimp is ugly and the ring will never hold right again, pull the ring, check the scope carefully, and either live with a carefully bedded setup or replace the damaged ring, and maybe the scope if it starts showing optical issues.

I think there’s some miscommunication here? The ring is fine, not bent or stretched or anything. The scope tube crinkled in its grasp like tin foil on a part that is more like a scope extension tube than a functional part of the scope. The obj lens is set about 2inch from the front of the scope. The ring gap difference between a crinkled tube and what the ring expected to be properly torqued was way less than a thou (0.001 in). And again: i never even got 1/2 of the spec’d torque on both of those screws.

The tin foil comment may not be far off from how it was made? I look inside it that extension and there’s no evidence of the crinkle: it looks like that part of the scope is two pieces: a thin outer skin and a (maybe thicker) long tension nut that bear some resemblance to a choke tube. I’m guessing that tension tube only has threads closer to the lens and the rest of the sleeve and tube are just kind of floating there.

I think glueing or affixing should be fine. There’s not many dangerous game scopes out there with an inch tube diameter these days. So I’ld be buying new 30mm rings regardless, and even if I did find some vintage 1-4/5/6x scope with that diameter… it’s not very expensive to just buy a new set of rings. Plus, with toughened long set epoxy like gflex i would know that scope is never moving again. However: for now i’m sitting in the middle ground with permatex liquid gasket which is tough, adhesive, color matched, etc. and moderately removable (e.g., with a hard plastic scraper). If the scope shoots fine, I may keep it on and glue it more permanently to the rings. God knows I can’t sell the scope now for what I paid, might as well keep it for the cost of the rings if I ever change my mind on the optic.

 

[rookhawk]

Did you full torque the bottom screws to 25 inch pounds first?
Yes.

Did you put oil on the scope (kroil, thinnest choice) for adjusting reticle and eye relief second?
I used grease on the scope body to reduce marring the scope body as I aligned the scope reticle and adjusted the eye relief. Grease did not enter the screw holes. I did not remove the factory oil on the screws which may be a mistake.

Did you tighten the top screws evenly in succession back and forth easing up to no more than 20 inch pounds?
Yes, alternating but to a lower torque of 10 in-lbs.

Things that can go wrong:
Not using loctite to increase viscosity on the screws.
Loctite would be a lubricant till it dried, wouldn't it? It would increase ring tension for the same screw torque.

Oiling the screws that reduces friction which could result in over-tightening.
I left the manufacturer oil on the rings and screws.

The grease would likely dent the scope. Hydraulic pressure.

 

[rookhawk]

@Foxfyre you seem to be an engineer of some sort? I ask, because your posts are complex and you are using a lot of specialty products. Greases. Black RTV. Etc. I think the overthinking got the best of you on the scope install.

I've installed at least 50 sets of Talley Rings and bases over the years. Always to 25 inch pounds on the bottom screws, 20 inch pounds on the top. Never have I had a ring mark on any of them. Not ever.

If it were me, I'd discard the rings and I'd replace the scope ruling out both potential issues remaining. I would then install as I prescribed above.

No lapping. No grease.