Double rifles and Elephant

[50Gunner]

Rare Breed, yes Sir, indeed, and will do, the Holland Royal 450 it will be for this Elephant hunt, both SA PH's really want to see that 577 in action, so it will go along for the walk and stalk hunting anything we can close the distance on there.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Take the 577NE. I will be doing the same thing next year and by coincidence have a ranch in Oklahoma near Holdenville as well.

HH

 

[steve white]

You had me at Holland & Holland 500/450! If it handles like a bird gun, that may save your life more than a little extra power. Pondoro Taylor said that a well fitting gun can perform out of all proportion to a badly fitting one.

 

[50Gunner]

Hunting Hitman, Nice, i'll be looking for your hunt report next year, I remember Holdenville, a little West Of Calvin, seems I remember a road headed there going North, we hauled coal to the big cement plant in Ada for 20 years, that Hartshorne vein runs right through this farm, you guys should have some dang nice whitetail deer out that way.

Steve White, that's true and makes a lot of sense, my old 41 year Army retired E9 Gramps told me long ago, "son, even a slow hit in the right place forever trumps a fast miss."

We can all look back at what Bell did with agility afoot and accurate shooting, different time, rules and place, yes, but he lived it.

 

[VertigoBE]

Did I perhaps miss it or haven’t we seen any pics yet of the 500/450 or the 577?

 

[Foxi]

You know exactly which ones you want to take with you.
Don't tell us stories about your luxury problems.
You just want to hear about what great weapons you have.
(Should I go on vacation with the dark-skinned beauty or the blonde? That's how it seems to me.)


Yes, they are great weapons,cheers!

 

[50Gunner]

VertigoBE, no Sir, I've never had any pics of those two rifles posted.

LOL, Foxi, no, it's true, my little bulb really does burn that dim, I need all the help from these Pros on this board I can get, and Thanks.

 

[VertigoBE]

VertigoBE, no Sir, I've never had any pics of those two rifles posted.

LOL, Foxi, no, it's true, my little bulb really does burn that dim, I need all the help from these Pros on this board I can get, and Thanks.

Well, after three pages of captivating the envy of the AH members, perhaps some teaser photos are in order?
I for one would love to get a chance to drool over them!

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Steve White, that's true and makes a lot of sense, my old 41 year Army retired E9 Gramps told me long ago, "son, even a slow hit in the right place forever trumps a fast miss."

Based on your age, I'm guessing your grandfather was likely a veteran of WWII and Korea, possibly either WWI or Vietnam as well depending on how old he was when he had your parent and how old your parents were when they had you. Any way you slice it, he had a fair bit of experience on "Slow" hits and "Fast" misses.

If he had them, any idea how many stars were on his CIB and Mustard Stains on his wings

 

[Houston Bill]

In my opinion there is no question as to which double I would take and it would be the H&H and I would think of Teddy a lot while hunting with it. Teddy is my favorite president and I spoke with H&H last year about a project to make me a near duplicate of Teddy's double rifle. The nostalgia of your H&H 500/450 far outweighs the awesome power of the 577.

 

[50Gunner]

LOL VertigoBE, certainly not my intention to captivate, if degoins or Woodcarver wants to post up some pics I'll surely dig those two outta the safe for photos, the 577 is like a brand new sledge hammer with a black hickory handle, just a plain dark beast, the H&H is the honey colored beauty.

 

[50Gunner]

Mtn Infantry,
I can tell you Gramps was born in 1922, he joined the Army in 1940, retired after 41 years in '81, he didn't talk much about it even though I always had ears wide open and mouth shut wanting to learn, I remember WW-II, Korea and 'Nam, he was a boot heel tough old bird, guessing a German 8mm round creased his helmet early on in WW-II, he wore a scar above his right eye from I guess the bullet powdering the bone in his forehead, just a sunken in spot. he was an E9 Sergeant Major that stayed in the chit with his men.

His dress uniform was beautiful, can tell you he had lots of hash marks down the sleeves of his coat, though I never asked what they or any of the very large panel of Medals meant, he was the kind of guy you just didn't intrude on, even if you were a grandson.

We buried him ten days before Christmas 2015 at 93 years of age

 

[50Gunner]

Houston Bill, I think what finally made up my mind was you CANNOT impress an Elephant, regardless of what you hit him with, we all know even a solid to the brain from Bells 6.5 and 7x57mm's got a lot done, even a 320gr Woodleigh solid on frontal brain from my 9.3x62mm at 2400 fps would be exceedingly lethal where legal, that bullet penetrates for days here on home testing media.

Frontal or side brain shot Elephant with good solids and it's a done deal, the .458 cal. 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids departing at 2225 fps leave me without a doubt on the outcome.

I have however noticed you can indeed impress a Cape buffalo, the 577 has shown me a markedly noticeable difference in striking power over any other weapon I've used, even the mighty 505 Gibbs with 600gr cup nosed solids didn't rock the buffalo like the 577 did, others may have differing results, simply stating what I have seen off the ends of my rifles.

Could hunt Buffalo and Warthogs everyday I have left with doubles till little Wife orders a backhoe and flowers to plant my butt in the clay, I love it.

I remember earlier in this thread something about being over gunned, looking back, the 375 H&H is the smallest bore rifle I've ever brought on Safari, it along with the 400 H&H and 458 WM make great scope sighted light to heavy plains game and Leopard guns, perfect pairings to heavy doubles.

Only five Safaris from 2015 to 2022, man it's time to go back.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Mtn Infantry,
I can tell you Gramps was born in 1922, he joined the Army in 1940, retired after 41 years in '81, he didn't talk much about it even though I always had ears wide open and mouth shut wanting to learn, I remember WW-II, Korea and 'Nam, he was a boot heel tough old bird, guessing a German 8mm round creased his helmet early on in WW-II, he wore a scar above his right eye from I guess the bullet powdering the bone in his forehead, just a sunken in spot. he was an E9 Sergeant Major that stayed in the chit with his men.

His dress uniform was beautiful, can tell you he had lots of hash marks down the sleeves of his coat, though I never asked what they or any of the very large panel of Medals meant, he was the kind of guy you just didn't intrude on, even if you were a grandson.

We buried him ten days before Christmas 2015 at 93 years of age

That was along the lines of when I guessed he served. If you ever find a photo of his dress uniform and are curious, send it over in a PM. I’ll let you know what ear ribbon and medal is that he’s wearing and try to provide a little color on them.

Depending on what your grandfather did in the Army, he has the potential to be one of the 325 soldiers to have received a 3rd award of the CIB. There’s an exhibit at the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, GA that lists all the recipients. its one of the rarest awards in the Army and every awardee served WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The Army CIB is still a highly respected badge. Very tight perimeters to receive one. Other branches are more lenient with their language of “in combat” for awards or commendations.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

If you're physically fit and it doesn't bother you, then take the .577. More people should.

 

[SStomcat]

Am sort of conflicted here, have a beautiful Holland Royal 500-450 Nitro with 26" barrels that swings like a bird gun, have also worked up a beautifully regulating load with 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids at 2210 fps over H-4831, the rifle is a spitting image of TR's rifle he used on the Smithsonian year long Safari, it's also just a couple serial numbers off his rifle.
The other choice is a mighty V\C boxlock 577 Nitro, also with 26" barrels, it's load with the 750gr Barnes banded flat nosed solid at 2076 fps over H-4350 needs no explanation, it is also very accurate.

With Ele, Lion and any other excellent representative of a plains game species will be on the list, the plains game, bait and cat rifle will be a beautiful Winston Elrod built 458 WM, he built it on a 1950 year model Winchester 70 375 H&H length action because he recognized the built in SAAMI throat length of the great 458 WM will let you load rounds to 3.585 inches.
It's loads are the 404gr Hammer bullet along with the excellent 400gr CEB #13 flat nosed solid, both loads clock 2600 fps.
The 404gr Hammer is already proven by me on Buffalo down to Impala, 20 to near 200 yards, longest animal travel after the shot was a 44" beautiful blue/black Sable bull, most all others dropped dead at the shot, including the Buffalo.

So, what double would you knowledgeable men carry for Ele? I can shoot both with equal accuracy, can also carry both just fine, even though the 577 weighs 3lbs more.

Thanks in advance.

The double that you shoot better and can carry all day on long walks chasing ele.

 

[cwickgo9]

I'll never have that experience, but as others have remarked, if you dont use the 577 on elephant, when do you use it? It gets my vote - hoping to hear of the adventure to further live vicariously through others...

 

[50Gunner]

Mtn Infantry, you were exactly right Sir, many Thanks to you and Altitude Sickness for the history lesson on achieved Service Medals my Gramps and others earned, I appreciate it greatly, that is a very deep and wide subject in my family, my own Father and his brothers had Mil service I know little about.

Do know, MACVSOG, Marines, Navy Frogman [UDI?] and Sea Bees, only have two uncles left, go to the family deer camp with them each year, in their lower to mid 80's now, they don't care much about hunting deer anymore, I will sit with them at the campfire with cigar and scotch and happily rehear the same stories over and over again, it is all more than good, and I am blessed to even be there.

I don't want to be negative, and hold out much hope for the future, but, we have many different kinds of biological males traipsing around the world, but very few Men, they are dying out on us.

 

[50Gunner]

Hagler450Ex, I agree, more people should take and hunt with their 577's, it is indeed a very specialized cartridge that takes an awful amount of self control to shoot well, and the physicality to carry it all day, I can do both, am basically lazy, but can work harden train getting ready for Safari, my Wife is a perfect example, she has a commercial grade TRUE treadmill out in the den, 15% incline walking just 3MPH for a mile and a half will work your sack in the dirt ; ]

The two SA PH's I've previously hunted with three times will see the 577 in action, I will bring it along with the 303 British double for a walk and stalk all game Safari maybe in 2027-28.

SStomcat, the Holland being 3lbs lighter will make all things easier, especially if we are at 10-15 miles per day on elephant, I have no doubts about the performance of the 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids departing at 2220 fps, they will go deep and straight.

cwickgo9, The 577 is indeed a Boss Buffalo rifle, man it lays a lick on them, a 750gr TSX to the last left side rib of an old Dugga boy at 18 yards in a dry Tanzanian river bed had that great bull doing his death bellow before he had fully fallen down on his right side, the skinners handed me that bullet from his right shoulder, that rumen sack bullet blocker we've heard about is a non issue with an inch and a half saw blade slicing through at 2076 fps, I believe momentum is the easiest of the physics scales to field, it is simply mass in motion, that is a very real thing.

Same for what they later told me was a Rowland Ward hippo bull, dry ground Tanzania, face in grass, broadside at 22 yards, one 750gr TSx slammed that bull so hard in the shoulders he dropped stone dead, I heard that giant hit the ground he dropped so fast.

Could hunt buffalo with the 577 double the rest of my days.