Double Rifle caliber question for those with first hand knowledge

Backyardsniper

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I have always been a fan of large caliber weapons, in all situations, for no reason other than I just like big guns. I shot a whitetail with a 460 weatherby last year so there's that. I have a 500 Jeffrey that is going to Zim with me next year for a buffalo and tuskless hunt. I am taking a 416 rigby as a back up. I'm not going to say recoil is not an issue because recoil is real and a heavy recoiling rifle takes a lot of practice to shoot well. Fortunately I reload and I can literally step out of my garage and shoot and also have a nice range right down the road so I get to do a lot of practicing.
So to the point, for you guys who have shot and also have seen animals shot with varying DR calibers, and I'm mostly looking at 450NE, 470NE, and 500NE, have you seen a quantifiable difference in the impact on an animal between those 3 calibers? It seems 450 is super easy to get projectiles for, .458, but hard to get brass. 470 seems to be the only one that uses the .474 bullet, but may be the most popular and easiest to find factory ammo for. The 500 shares the same .510 projectile with the Jeffrey that I already own and once I get brass for it then the higher cost and lower availability of factory ammo isn't really an issue.
Main question then, is there any real significant difference in impact on game between these 3 calibers? Is thier any other real benefit to any of these three or is it more just a matter of find the gun you like and any of those calibers will get the job done just the same?
 
I'd go for the 500 if I were you. Brass and bullets are "reasonably" easy to find. I have a 500bpe double. 500 BPE is the forerunner of the 500 NE.
Fun to shoot, didn't take too much to find THE load for it either.
 
I am primarily looking at the 500. It is definitely my preference. I think it is the largest "reasonably useable" caliber that components can be sourced for fairly easily. Once I aquire brass then CEB, hornady and swift all make projectiles.
I'd go for the 500 if I were you. Brass and bullets are "reasonably" easy to find. I have a 500bpe double. 500 BPE is the forerunner of the 500 NE.
Fun to shoot, didn't take too much to find THE load for it either.
 
A quality 300gr bullet from a .375 has killed decisively everything (including four buffalo) that it has been aimed at. Three of the four were shot twice as insurance, but all were dead with the first round. Carries like a 30 06. accurate to 300 yards on PG, and lethal on DG. Can not imagine why a client going on their first DG hunt would want to burden themselves or their PH with a .500.
 
A quality 300gr bullet from a .375 has killed decisively everything (including four buffalo) that it has been aimed at. Three of the four were shot twice as insurance, but all were dead with the first round. Carries like a 30 06. accurate to 300 yards on PG, and lethal on DG. Can not imagine why a client going on their first DG hunt would want to burden themselves or their PH with a .500.
Probably because when I talked to the person I'm booking with and said I'm bringing a 500 Jeffrey they said "ah great, you'll be glad you did when it comes time to shoot your elephant." I understand some people are recoil sensitive and large caliber rifles are not thier preference, and that is OK. Hell, everything is OK these days so feel free to shoot a 375 all you want to. Its just not for me. Anything that has to be prefaced with " its sufficient for a client rifle" is not big enough to be hunting with. I mean I could just take a 30/06 and poke a hole in the animal and then let the PH finish it off but I would much prefer to do my own killing.
 
Probably because when I talked to the person I'm booking with and said I'm bringing a 500 Jeffrey they said "ah great, you'll be glad you did when it comes time to shoot your elephant." I understand some people are recoil sensitive and large caliber rifles are not thier preference, and that is OK. Hell, everything is OK these days so feel free to shoot a 375 all you want to. Its just not for me. Anything that has to be prefaced with " its sufficient for a client rifle" is not big enough to be hunting with. I mean I could just take a 30/06 and poke a hole in the animal and then let the PH finish it off but I would much prefer to do my own killing.
What happened to your .460 Weatherby? Seems like that would be an appropriate elephant rifle?
 
I've still got it, still shoot it and it is definitely on the back up list. I like the 500 Jeff since I guess it is a "more traditional" African cartridge but I haven't rules out the weatherby. I think it is one of the most underrated cartridges out there when hand loaded. The factory loads are the problem with the 460. I did buy the +1 bottom metal so it will hold 3 down in case I do want to take it. I have a good load worked up for it with the 500 A Frames and the 450 CEB solids both running in the 2300fps ballpark.
 
Probably because when I talked to the person I'm booking with and said I'm bringing a 500 Jeffrey they said "ah great, you'll be glad you did when it comes time to shoot your elephant." I understand some people are recoil sensitive and large caliber rifles are not thier preference, and that is OK. Hell, everything is OK these days so feel free to shoot a 375 all you want to. Its just not for me. Anything that has to be prefaced with " its sufficient for a client rifle" is not big enough to be hunting with. I mean I could just take a 30/06 and poke a hole in the animal and then let the PH finish it off but I would much prefer to do my own killing.
So first of all - for an elephant a .500 is an excellent choice - assuming the right bullet and the right opportunity.

I'll ignore your comment about the 30-06 because I am trying to be serious. I know you have this all figured out but "Anything that has to be prefaced with its sufficient for a client rifle is not big enough to be hunting with" is nothing but silly bravado?

My appreciation of the effectiveness of the .375 has nothing to do with recoil sensitivity and everything to do with exact bullet placement. I currently own a .404, .470, and 500-416. I shoot them all well. But when it is time to start packing, nothing beats the flexibility and inherent accuracy of a .375. Hit an elephant in the brain with your .500 and he will die. Do the same with a .375 and you will have exactly the same outcome. Miss with either, and you will have the beginning of a long and difficult day.

I wish you luck with your .500 or your .460. Both will absolutely do the job. With whatever you use, just put the first bullet in exactly the right spot.
 
No need to ignore the 30/06 comment. I said exactly what I meant. That is how I feel about the 375. It's good, as long as everything goes good. When things go bad it is definitely not a stopping rifle.
On another note, it is not missed that you always seem to have a cute backhand condescending comment such as
"Can not imagine why a client going on their first DG hunt would want to burden themselves or their PH with a .500."
This must be a carry over from being an officer. I'm quite familiar with that degree of condescension because I spent a lot of time in Iraq watching all thier brilliant ideas come to fruition after they told us just how dumb our ideas were.
But then when I explain exactly why I don't care to hunt with a 375, because it is only sufficient for a client. Which translates to, it is great for guys who can't shoot a bigger caliber accurately. Well then that's just silly bravado from a silly boy who isn't as smart as an officer, right?
Shoot a 375 if it makes you happy, however, just because it is the be all end all of African cartridges in your eyes does not make it folly for someone to want to hunt with something different. So I wish you luck in all your future 375 endeavours.
 
No need to ignore the 30/06 comment. I said exactly what I meant. That is how I feel about the 375. It's good, as long as everything goes good. When things go bad it is definitely not a stopping rifle.
On another note, it is not missed that you always seem to have a cute backhand condescending comment such as
"Can not imagine why a client going on their first DG hunt would want to burden themselves or their PH with a .500."
This must be a carry over from being an officer. I'm quite familiar with that degree of condescension because I spent a lot of time in Iraq watching all thier brilliant ideas come to fruition after they told us just how dumb our ideas were.
But then when I explain exactly why I don't care to hunt with a 375, because it is only sufficient for a client. Which translates to, it is great for guys who can't shoot a bigger caliber accurately. Well then that's just silly bravado from a silly boy who isn't as smart as an officer, right?
Shoot a 375 if it makes you happy, however, just because it is the be all end all of African cartridges in your eyes does not make it folly for someone to want to hunt with something different. So I wish you luck in all your future 375 endeavours.
Genuinely regret this conversation. Sorry I attempted to dialogue with you. I respected all soldiers that I served with regardless of rank. I particularly respected them when they had experience with either materiel or a situation that I did not. I wish you every success in your coming hunt.
 
You are going to get alot of different answers to this question. The thing no one can account for is the animals will to live.

I have only killed one buff, was using my 416REM with SwiftAs. Talked to the PH and he told me the week before that a client shot a buff 11 times with a 470NE. He said they are funny one will go down with a single shot from a 375H&H and the next takes lead like you could not believe. I chocked it up to the guy using the 470NE was not a good shot. Then I shot mine and I put 9rds in him. First 3 were text book the rest was put them in the black as he moved around. All 9 shots were accounted for. He was just inside of 100 yards, so I suspected if I were closer the extra energy would have made a difference.

Fast forward a year later, now I have a 458Lott. Really wanted to try it out. Hunted a young Watusi, was close this time 40 yards. When I let the first shot go it impacted the center of his chest, it was a head on shot. It rocked him back he stumbled, he turned broadside. Then his buddy moved from behind him and I had a clear shot I sent one into his shoulder. He stumbled around walked in a circle and laid down but was still looking at me. Shot him in the neck to finish him.

These are two different animals buff 1600ish# Watsui 1200ish# probably 1000ftlbs of energy difference due to distance and rounds used. Both animals you could see them absorbing the impacts through the scope. Both did not want to die, it is had to truly appreciate that without seeing it first hand.

Neither one are rounds you specifically asked for, both match or exceed the energy of the rounds you listed.
 
I am one of those people who drives a big V6 SUV (big family and wouldn't mind a pickup as well with the wife taking the SUV later) in the city. Why, because I like it. I also like to go out to the country and use it. one can successfully do a lap of the Nurburgring in a toyota corolla, but where is the fun and adrenaline in that...

Same for me with big caliber's, why use a big caliber when something smaller would be "more suited", stuff that. Use the caliber you want, as long as you can shoot it properly and you are competent in it. No one wants someone with the biggest and best stopping caliber rifle but you cannot hit or handle the rifle.

On the question though, seeing what you want it is all double rifle calibers. I would be inclined to go the 450 or the 500, the latter clearly having more power and oomph. If you however want something to complement you current arsenal, either the 450/470 would sit in your gap. The 450 would be easier to handle and shoot definitely, but it would lack power compared to the 500. But it would still have more power than your 416. They are so close to each other though that if you shoot an elephant with all three on the same spot, you would probably get the same result. My choice 450 or if you really like big bores and calibers, go big and get the 500. The itch will always be there...
 
Of all the larger game that I've shot, 6 Buffalo and one Eland, all but two of the buffalo and the Eland have been taken with a 375. One buffalo was taken with a 416. One with a 470 Double. All but one buffalo were rather uneventful kills, with predictable results due to proper bullet placement. One bull was somewhat of a rodeo, due to an angling shot that only took out one lung. On this particular buffalo, not sure if a larger caliber would've worked any better, but it sure wouldn't have hurt anything.
Now to your double rifle decision. On Buffalo, I doubt you'd notice much difference between the three you listed. On Elephant, I have no experience. (I hope to remedy that this August.) The one and only buffalo I shot with a 470 was a cow buffalo in Australia. I shot her 3 times through the chest before she finally went down. All of the 500 gr Woodleigh bullets exited. But still she refused to go down easily. Honestly, the 375 loaded with 300gr TSX worked better on the 3 bulls I shot that week, than the 470 did on the cow. But admittedly that very limited experience with the 470 isn't enough for me to draw any meaningful conclusions. Just a tough cow I reckon.
I think at the end of the day, just choose whatever you want to hunt with, as long as you shoot it well. It's legal. You use a good bullet, And, most of all, put the bullet where it needs to go.
I doubt anything will get up and claim the 450 was any less effective than the 500. Good luck on your hunt!
 
The .470NE is a great cartridge & available for a while as others were not, it kills Buffalo very well but about the same as a 450NE does in a slightly slimmer gun.

The .500NE is a hammer on Buffalo & quite a jump in stopping/killing power if you can shoot it well ???

some of my biggest shot ups have been with clients armed with .460 Weatherbys & .500NE as a bullet in the horn - foot- face or guts is not a great stopper !

Oh next caliber for biggest shoot ups would be .375H&H but to be fair far more hunters arrive carrying one of these !
 
Back in 2011 I went on a cull hunt in the Northern Territories of Australia. I was part of the shooting and witnessed 15 Buffalo getting shot with a 375 H&H, 470 NE and a 500 NE. The 500 got their attention.
 
.450 or .470 results the same. .500 is a step up but a bit heavier to carry. It is all up to you.
 
.450 or .470 results the same. .500 is a step up but a bit heavier to carry. It is all up to you.
Thanks guys. This seems to be the general consensus, and also the information I was looking for.
Back in 2011 I went on a cull hunt in the Northern Territories of Australia. I was part of the shooting and witnessed 15 Buffalo getting shot with a 375 H&H, 470 NE and a 500 NE. The 500 got their attention.
 
Probably because when I talked to the person I'm booking with and said I'm bringing a 500 Jeffrey they said "ah great, you'll be glad you did when it comes time to shoot your elephant." I understand some people are recoil sensitive and large caliber rifles are not thier preference, and that is OK. Hell, everything is OK these days so feel free to shoot a 375 all you want to. Its just not for me. Anything that has to be prefaced with " its sufficient for a client rifle" is not big enough to be hunting with. I mean I could just take a 30/06 and poke a hole in the animal and then let the PH finish it off but I would much prefer to do my own killing.


Check out this very interesting chart. It does actually show a 30-06 has not only better penetration than a 500NE, but considerably more. And a 375 H&H has more yet (with heavy for caliber bullets) and is in fact near the top of the range.

I remember looking at this chart before my elephant hunt. I had just purchased a 505 Gibbs, owned a 375 H&H, and ended up buying a 416 Rem Mag which i ultimately shot my elephant with. I did take the 375 with, and left the 505 home for two reasons. 1. It was having feeding issues occasionally, especially when the bolt was cycled very fast. 2. The thing is just simply heavy to carry.

The particular 416 i took actually weighs less than that 375 of the same make and model. And in my case at least, elephant was hunted with feet. Much strenuous walking through difficult terrain. So to me at least, every extra ounce I was carrying was important. And it was mostly HOT. So an extra pound of rifle meant one less bottle of water. And that one extra bottle of water became very important late in the afternoon which happened to be when we often caught up and approached elephants.

Notice the really big heavy hitters are not even in the acceptable range on penetration for a frontal head shot on elephant. I'm talking .577 NE, .600 and 700.

Now Justin way at the bottom you can see the clear choice for your elephant hunt would be a 50 BMG. ;)

Seriously, pretty much all of the double rifle calibers are at best only in the "Just Suitable" category or if tuned just right with heavy bullets can eek barely into the "Well Suited" category and none come even close to the "Very Reliable" or "Top Values" that the 375 fits right into, as does a 416 rem mag or Rigby. Of note is the 416/500NE that @Red Leg mentioned is likely one of the few Double Rifle cartridges that might fare well if it was included on this chart.

Now I realize, as does the author of that chart, that charts and indexes do not kill elephants.

I would like to also point out a couple simple points that I'm sure all parties of this discussion are aware, but points worth making and to Joe's point on accuracy and the main point on penetration.

Bullet diameter. The greater the caliber, the greater the frontal area of the bullet. This is why starting at about .474, or even .423 in the case of the 404 Jeffrey, penetration starts to fall off. Increased frontal area needs to be overcome with weight and speed. Those two things create recoil. And no matter what kind of He Man you are, at some point recoil reduces accuracy. It can and is typically managed by rifle weight. But for the type of elephant hunt many of us dream of, you will be walking them down. You will need water. You get the point.

I also want to point out something else about frontal area of a bullet. @Royal27 heart shot his elephant with a 458 Lott. It ran for something like 13 hours and he finished it with a frontal brain shot. Upon skinning it out, the heart had a nice groove put in it by the .458 bullet but it had failed to opened the heart up to rapid blood loss. Someone mentioned he should have bored his 458 out to 470 Capstick and possibly the extra diameter would have opened up the heart....

I would contend that if the tsetse fly who shit on Royal's left shoulder had instead relieved itself on his right shoulder it might have also caused Royal to lean just enough to one side to make that shot penetrate the heart :)

In my case, I took a side brain shot. I was told to shoot 3" behind the ear hole. I should have shot 3" ahead. In defense of my PH, he was more concerned about the second elephant coming through a thicket to stomp us than watching the exact angle presented at my shot. My bullet clipped the vertebrae connected to the skull and knock the elephant unconscious. I got a second shot in between the shoulder blades and a 3rd into the top of the head within a few seconds and it was all over. Would a 300 grain 375 bullet have had the shock value to knock that bull down? I don't know. The 400 grain i was shooting did. Had I been shooting a double I just don't know. Mine is very accurate but not close to my good bolt guns.

My point being that Joe is of course absolutely correct on the importance of shot placement being much more important than caliber. However there is something to be said about a heavier bullet. Not sure what I might use on a second elephant hunt?

However if I get into a public discussion about it, I would certainly try to be polite and open minded to well intentioned answers to my questions.
 
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