michael458
AH fanatic
Short story about that rifle you see with the big Aussie Buff........ That was the second 475 B&M built, there has only been three of those guns done.
Gun #1 was a great gun, did all the bullet test work with CEBs and North Forks that we developed for the cartridge, with great success, and really liked the gun a lot........
Had a second one done, stainless and wood, I sighted it in, shot it some, shot great at 50 yards, so off we go to Australia, first and only outing with the 475 B&Ms.............
Shot a bunch of buffalo with it, good success, bullets worked great, shot CEB Raptors and Solids, and lots of the Expanding North Forks, all worked great, 99% of everything exited far side, and straight line penetration...........
I shot a really big redskin (Big Aussie Cow native to the area we were hunting)...... Frontal chest shot with 420 CEB Raptors at .474 caliber........ We recovered that bullet all the way on the rear hindquarters, perfect remaining Raptor Slug......... We also noticed, it had NO RIFLING MARKS, no engraving on the bullet at all...... Nothing................
Come to find out the barrel was OVER SIZED, it was .478 or something like that, supposed to be .474, and it was a 1:10 twist Pac-Nor... brand new.......... They of course replaced it at no cost........
Now, here is the very interesting part of this story, it is Two Fold you might say......... Take notice, I had zero issues with bullet performance, either accuracy and far more important, penetration, performance and straight line penetration of any solids fired, and none of them engraved from the barrel, might as well been a smooth bore, but that did not effect bullet performance in the field in any way...... No, I can't really tell you how far anything was shot on this trip, but chances are most everything was less than 50 yards. I noticed no issues with accuracy at 50 yards when sighted in, everything in a hole.....
I think this is a huge testament to really good bullet designs, from both CEB and North Fork.
Now, second part of this story.......
The only experience I had ever had with .474 caliber, or 470s..... I had two of the Big Five Series guns from Winchester in 470 Capstick. They made a 125 of each cartridge they did, and the last one with Rhino, was 470 Capstick. Big surprise to everyone, we all figured it would be 458 Lott, but New Haven Custom shop went wide, with the 470 Capstick. First off, neither gun would retain rounds in the magazine, they flipped straight out when you worked the bolt. New Haven could not sort it out, and it was not ever sorted out until I started working with SSK, Brian sorted both guns out in short order........Then I started doing some bullet work in the guns, recovered bullets had NO ENGRAVING on them. In no bullet tests back in those days, none were engaging the rifling...... But, once again, both guns were accurate enough at 50 yards, you would not know it from an accuracy standpoint......
So now, I had two 470 Capstick, neither would retain rounds in the magazine, and neither would engrave the bullets, both had over size barrels on them. We slugged both barrels, and both were .477 caliber. I suppose somewhere along the way, Winchester received these over size barrels, and did not know it either. One time, Leslie at the Custom Shop told me no one else was having any problems with other 123 guns! I laughed, and asked her "Leslie, who do you know with the other 123 guns that is actually shooting them, and not just rubbing off on them, and have them in the safe to brag on?"...... She agreed, not many would ever be actually shot..........
I did not really want a .474 caliber B&M to begin with, but there were some guys that wanted it, so we did it. What are the chances that the second gun I had built would ALSO have an over size barrel, from Pac-Nor? And in the same caliber.......????
Really did not put a good taste for .474 caliber in my mouth I can tell you that. I have the only 3 guns ever built, and it will remain that way, everyone that asks, I steer them to the 458 version, which I think is just as good and better....... I never once seen any advantage in the field with .474 caliber over .458 caliber, I didn't see buffalo being bowled over any better than if it were .458......In addition the 475 B&M is a pain to load as well, cases want to stretch and cause head separation, no matter what I try on my end...... and the 458 version is a sweetheart to load, you can't do much to screw it up..........
The only thing, I have a bunch of really good .474 caliber bullets on hand from CEB and North Fork....One day I may load some more up, maybe try some of the superior Norma brass for the 475s, but I don't want anymore guns built and out there.........And I don't want anything more to do with .474 or .478 or whatever, if its .47 anything, its not for me........ LOL.....
Gun #1 was a great gun, did all the bullet test work with CEBs and North Forks that we developed for the cartridge, with great success, and really liked the gun a lot........
Had a second one done, stainless and wood, I sighted it in, shot it some, shot great at 50 yards, so off we go to Australia, first and only outing with the 475 B&Ms.............
Shot a bunch of buffalo with it, good success, bullets worked great, shot CEB Raptors and Solids, and lots of the Expanding North Forks, all worked great, 99% of everything exited far side, and straight line penetration...........
I shot a really big redskin (Big Aussie Cow native to the area we were hunting)...... Frontal chest shot with 420 CEB Raptors at .474 caliber........ We recovered that bullet all the way on the rear hindquarters, perfect remaining Raptor Slug......... We also noticed, it had NO RIFLING MARKS, no engraving on the bullet at all...... Nothing................
Come to find out the barrel was OVER SIZED, it was .478 or something like that, supposed to be .474, and it was a 1:10 twist Pac-Nor... brand new.......... They of course replaced it at no cost........
Now, here is the very interesting part of this story, it is Two Fold you might say......... Take notice, I had zero issues with bullet performance, either accuracy and far more important, penetration, performance and straight line penetration of any solids fired, and none of them engraved from the barrel, might as well been a smooth bore, but that did not effect bullet performance in the field in any way...... No, I can't really tell you how far anything was shot on this trip, but chances are most everything was less than 50 yards. I noticed no issues with accuracy at 50 yards when sighted in, everything in a hole.....
I think this is a huge testament to really good bullet designs, from both CEB and North Fork.
Now, second part of this story.......
The only experience I had ever had with .474 caliber, or 470s..... I had two of the Big Five Series guns from Winchester in 470 Capstick. They made a 125 of each cartridge they did, and the last one with Rhino, was 470 Capstick. Big surprise to everyone, we all figured it would be 458 Lott, but New Haven Custom shop went wide, with the 470 Capstick. First off, neither gun would retain rounds in the magazine, they flipped straight out when you worked the bolt. New Haven could not sort it out, and it was not ever sorted out until I started working with SSK, Brian sorted both guns out in short order........Then I started doing some bullet work in the guns, recovered bullets had NO ENGRAVING on them. In no bullet tests back in those days, none were engaging the rifling...... But, once again, both guns were accurate enough at 50 yards, you would not know it from an accuracy standpoint......
So now, I had two 470 Capstick, neither would retain rounds in the magazine, and neither would engrave the bullets, both had over size barrels on them. We slugged both barrels, and both were .477 caliber. I suppose somewhere along the way, Winchester received these over size barrels, and did not know it either. One time, Leslie at the Custom Shop told me no one else was having any problems with other 123 guns! I laughed, and asked her "Leslie, who do you know with the other 123 guns that is actually shooting them, and not just rubbing off on them, and have them in the safe to brag on?"...... She agreed, not many would ever be actually shot..........
I did not really want a .474 caliber B&M to begin with, but there were some guys that wanted it, so we did it. What are the chances that the second gun I had built would ALSO have an over size barrel, from Pac-Nor? And in the same caliber.......????
Really did not put a good taste for .474 caliber in my mouth I can tell you that. I have the only 3 guns ever built, and it will remain that way, everyone that asks, I steer them to the 458 version, which I think is just as good and better....... I never once seen any advantage in the field with .474 caliber over .458 caliber, I didn't see buffalo being bowled over any better than if it were .458......In addition the 475 B&M is a pain to load as well, cases want to stretch and cause head separation, no matter what I try on my end...... and the 458 version is a sweetheart to load, you can't do much to screw it up..........
The only thing, I have a bunch of really good .474 caliber bullets on hand from CEB and North Fork....One day I may load some more up, maybe try some of the superior Norma brass for the 475s, but I don't want anymore guns built and out there.........And I don't want anything more to do with .474 or .478 or whatever, if its .47 anything, its not for me........ LOL.....
