Comparison of the .500s

[JvW]

The reason why the British never loaded a 570-grain load for the .500 Jeffery is that they never loaded ammunition for the cartridge. The historic ammo was loaded by GECO (Gecado) in Germany. Kynoch (the old one) never loaded .500 Jeffery ammo.

A friend has correspondence between Leonard (Birmingham gunmaker who made most of the original Jeffery .500's) and the German factory where Leonard asked for proof loads to supply to the proof house. The date was 1939, so I don't think a reply was forthcoming!

As for the recoil, a .500 Jeffery has quite a bit of free recoil energy. It goes backwards faster that a .500 NE. Perhaps this explains the heavier perceived recoil?

 

[xausa]

A line from Hemingway's short story, "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" stuck in my mind after reading it for the first time. It referred to the Professional Hunter's rifle, a "short, ugly, .incredibly big bored .505 Gibbs." It resulted in my resolve to carry such a rifle on my African adventure. Several events changed my mind. In 1970 Kynoch stopped manufacturing all but rimfire and shotgun ammunition, leaving African hunters with traditional rifles stranded by the prospect of no ammunition for them in the future.

In the mean time I had been corresponding with barrel maker, gunsmith and African hunter, John Buhmiller and he was good enough to send me copies of his various writings on his experience with hunting in Africa with rifles he built himself in calibers he diesigned himself, inclusing the .45-.378 Weathrby and various .50 calibers. At one point John expressed the opinion that the Weatherby case was unnecessarily large for modern powders, and I started thinking of that in terms of a "wildcat" .505, which would duplicate the Gibbs ballistic performance, but with a smaller case, useable in a "standard" sized bolt action. This led me to design a case based on the Weatherby case shortened to 2.500" and necked to accomodate a .505" bullet.

John obligingly supplied me with a barrel for my project and the rifle was assembled using a P14 Enfield action, test fired and fitted with a stock by Reinhart Fajan. At that point, I was dispayed to learn that since the .505 Gibbs is a propriatary cartridge, bullets in that caliber were not available commercially from the manufacturer of the ammunition, Kynoch. The Barnes bullet company made two versions of a .505 bullet, both with jackets made from copper tubing, a 600 grain soft point and a 600 grain solid. I tried them out and was not impressed. However, at about that time I was able to secure a supply of .500 Nitro Express 570 grain steel jacketed bullets, which, although they were .510" in diameter, as opposed to the .505" bullets, could be adapted for use in my rifle. I was able to achieve velocities of 2150 fps with the modified bullets, the same as a .500 Nitro Express, so I felt no handicap from a lack of original 535 grain Gibbs bullets.

I fired full loads with my 8 3/4 pound rifle only to test ammunition and to secure a reliable zero with the Lyman 48 aperture rear sight and the Patridge front sight. These were fired using my
version of a "lead sled" based on a similar device, a Preuss Gerät, which I had seen in use at the Krieghoff factory in Germany. Afterwards, all my practice was done with light loads and cast bullets, which served to make me totally familiar with the working of the rifle and the use of the sights.

This is the rifle I took with me to Africa with the idea of using it exclusively on thick skinned game (elephant, rhinoceros) and large and aggressive thin skinned game (Cape buffalo). On other thin skinned game I considered my .375 H&H to be totally adequate.

Things worked out exactly as planned, and I successfully accounted for three elephants, five Cape buffalo and a rhino, with the PH shooting only at the first elephant and the rhino,
the latter shots being totally ineffectual. When I questioned the PH as to why he had found it necessary to add his contribution to an elephant already on the ground, he pointed out that
the action had taken place only a few hundred yards away from the boundary of a game refuge, and if the elephant had regained its feet and made it across the boundary, it would have been
lost. The two shots he contributed to the rhino consisted of one shot which grazed the animals front horn and another which keyholed in his left hip. On successive safaris my PH never fired his rifle, since my two brain shots on elephant were successful and All the buffalo were either found dead or finished off by me.

My cartridge, the .505 SRE, is the one in the middle of the photo, with my .450 C&W on the left and my .577 VSRE on the right. The bullet in the front is a 570 grain Kynoch full metal jacket.

 

[Quaticman]

There are four elements that contribute to recoil and that are essential to know in order to calculate the recoil of a particular firearm, all equally important.

The weight of the powder charge, weight of the bullet, speed of the bullet and weight of the firearm.
With the exact charges you provided; weight of bullets, speed of bullets and your weight of rifles of 11.5 pounds, the recoil is:
68.54 lbs, 79.37 lbs and 85.64 lbs respectively in the order which you provided.

The higher recoil figures you provided are accurate for a rifle weighing 10.5 pounds.

My Merkel 140 AE chambered in .500 Nitro Express weighs 10.4 lbs. I can tell you that full house loads are "very exhilarating".

 

[colorado]

The reason why the British never loaded a 570-grain load for the .500 Jeffery is that they never loaded ammunition for the cartridge. The historic ammo was loaded by GECO (Gecado) in Germany. Kynoch (the old one) never loaded .500 Jeffery ammo.

A friend has correspondence between Leonard (Birmingham gunmaker who made most of the original Jeffery .500's) and the German factory where Leonard asked for proof loads to supply to the proof house. The date was 1939, so I don't think a reply was forthcoming!

As for the recoil, a .500 Jeffery has quite a bit of free recoil energy. It goes backwards faster that a .500 NE. Perhaps this explains the heavier perceived recoil?

So assuming similar weight a 500 NE "factory load" is a 570g bullet at 2150 fps, 2300 fps for the Jeffery.
The recoil shouldn't be that different, but I know when I load my 570g TSX's up to 2500 fps the recoil in my 12 lb CZ 550 500 Jeffery is punishing. Based on the recoil calculator my "mild or normal load" generate 88.7 ft lbs out of my 12 lb rifle With my heavier load the recoil calculator gives 115.8 lbs of recoil which is just past my tolerance level. It does produce 8000 ft lbs of energy though. What a difference 200 fps makes.

 

[Nhoro]

Actually rather than just case capacity it is the type of powder and quantity. For example if you change the .500 NE powder to H-4831 then you need 113.5 grains to reach 2,150 which also brings the recoil impulse up to 88.6 lb/fts

So, if there were powders that required less powder in the case for the Jefferey and Gibbs at the same ballistics WHILE being safe then their recoil impulse would go down.

Just a question- I am assuming that large cases with a large capacity would be more suited to the slower powders. So are you saying that we just cant get slow enough powders for the Gibbs case ? Also a random thought to add- does having a bulky powder help ie a powder that may have less grains in the case but fills it close to 100 %. I am thinking this because it seems using a filler in these large cases is common practice. So do you need to add extra powder to build the pressure of a half empty case, while 100 % load doesnt.

 

[colorado]

The Gibbs is capable in a modern rifle of in excess of 2500 fps with a 600g bullet. I have loaded my 500 Jeffery to over 2500 fps with a 570g bullet. Fun index is low!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Very interesting topic and love the discussion . Although all four calibers ( .500 A Square , .500 Jeffery , .500 Nitro Express and .505 Gibbs ) are very fine charge stoppers , the .505 Gibbs is my favorite one due to it's sheer appearance . The large case capacity is very impressive .

However , I honestly believe that if you loaded the .505 Gibbs case to it's full capacity ... Then , the recoil would be very violent .

I guess this is why Norma loads their 600 Gr FMJ solids and soft nose ammunition in .505 Gibbs , to only 2100 fps . Richard Harland ( famous African white hunter ) used to hand load 600 Gr Barnes Copper jacketed FMJ solids in his .505 Gibbs , to 2150 fps . Dr. Kevin Robertson loads his .505 Gibbs cases to the same velocity , by using 600 Gr Northfork cup nosed solids and flat nosed solids .

 

[xausa]

Very interesting topic and love the discussion . Although all four calibers ( .500 A Square , .500 Jeffery , .500 Nitro Express and .505 Gibbs ) are very fine charge stoppers , the .505 Gibbs is my favorite one due to it's sheer appearance . The large case capacity is very impressive .

However , I honestly believe that if you loaded the .505 Gibbs case to it's full capacity ... Then , the recoil would be very violent .

I guess this is why Norma loads their 600 Gr FMJ solids and soft nose ammunition in .505 Gibbs , to only 2100 fps . Richard Harland ( famous African white hunter ) used to hand load 600 Gr Barnes Copper jacketed FMJ solids in his .505 Gibbs , to 2150 fps . Dr. Kevin Robertson loads his .505 Gibbs cases to the same velocity , by using 600 Gr Northfork cup nosed solids and flat nosed solids .

I use 570 gr. solids meant for the .500 NE in my .505 SRE. I used to swage them down from .510" to .505", but after I discovered that an unswaged .510" bullet will pass easily in the the neck of a fired case, I no longer find it necessary. The recoil with my 8 3/4# rifle is substantial, but not noticable shooting at game. I was able to put four aimed shots in the shoulder of a running Cape buffalo on one occasion.

 

[IvW]

What is a 505 SRE?

 

[IvW]

According to Wikipedia the original load of the .500 Nitro Express was a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps, for the .500 Jeffery it was a 535 grain bullet at 2350 fps, and the .505 Gibbs pushed a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps.

Using load data from Barnes which makes all these bullets, powder charges are .500 NE - 93.5 grs. (RL15), .500 Jeffery - 107 grs.(Varget), and .505 Gibbs - 138 grs. (RL22).

Case capacities are 138 grs., 158 grs., and 178 grs., respectively.

Using a standard weight of 11.5 pounds rifle, recoil figures are 75 lbs-ft., 88.5 lbs-ft., and 102 lbs-ft.

It's interesting to me how much effect on recoil the case capacity has as it necessitates a larger powder charge to get equivalent ballistics.

And yes, I'm bored from social isolation!

505 Gibbs will out recoil a 500 Jeff all the time....
500 Jeff is my baby

 

[postoak]

What is a 505 SRE?

See post #42 above.

"This led me to design a case based on the Weatherby case shortened to 2.500" and necked to accomodate a .505" bullet."

 

[xausa]

What is a 505 SRE?

A .505 SRE is a cartridge I came up with in the late 1960's, with the cooperation of John Buhmiller, US gunsmith, barrel maker and African hunter with over 100 elephants to his credit. It is formed from a .460 Weatherby case, shortened to 2.500" and opened up to accommodate a .505" diameter bullet. I ended up using a .570 grain bullet meant for the .500 NE and achieved .500 NE velocity with a much smaller case which fit in a standard length (P14 Enfield) action. The SRE stands for Short Range Express. The rifle accounted for three elephants, five Cape buffalo and a black rhino, mostly one shot kills.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A .505 SRE is a cartridge I came up with in the late 1960's, with the cooperation of John Buhmiller, US gunsmith, barrel maker and African hunter with over 100 elephants to his credit. It is formed from a .460 Weatherby case, shortened to 2.500" and opened up to accommodate a .505" diameter bullet. I ended up using a .570 grain bullet meant for the .500 NE and achieved .500 NE velocity with a much smaller case which fit in a standard length (P14 Enfield) action. The SRE stands for Short Range Express. The rifle accounted for three elephants, five Cape buffalo and a black rhino, mostly one shot kills.

Isn’t the Pattern 14 Enfield a Magnum length action which can house the .505 Gibbs , anyway ?

 

[xausa]

Isn’t the Pattern 14 Enfield a Magnum length action which can house the .505 Gibbs , anyway ?

The Pattern 14 action was originally built to accommodate the .276 Enfield cartridge, then altered to use the .303 British. In the latter configuration, it would have to be altered to accommodate a Magnum length cartridge, which was done immediately after the World Wars, when Magnum size actions were hard to find. However, my cartridge required no such modification.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The Pattern 14 action was originally built to accommodate the .276 Enfield cartridge, then altered to use the .303 British. In the latter configuration, it would have to be altered to accommodate a Magnum length cartridge, which was done immediately after the World Wars, when Magnum size actions were hard to find. However, my cartridge required no such modification.View attachment 413422

Oh . I understand . So the Pattern 14 Enfield is originally a standard length action , which gunsmiths open up to Magnum length .

 

[John Telford]

A line from Hemingway's short story, "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" stuck in my mind after reading it for the first time. It referred to the Professional Hunter's rifle, a "short, ugly, .incredibly big bored .505 Gibbs." It resulted in my resolve to carry such a rifle on my African adventure. Several events changed my mind. In 1970 Kynoch stopped manufacturing all but rimfire and shotgun ammunition, leaving African hunters with traditional rifles stranded by the prospect of no ammunition for them in the future.

In the mean time I had been corresponding with barrel maker, gunsmith and African hunter, John Buhmiller and he was good enough to send me copies of his various writings on his experience with hunting in Africa with rifles he built himself in calibers he diesigned himself, inclusing the .45-.378 Weathrby and various .50 calibers. At one point John expressed the opinion that the Weatherby case was unnecessarily large for modern powders, and I started thinking of that in terms of a "wildcat" .505, which would duplicate the Gibbs ballistic performance, but with a smaller case, useable in a "standard" sized bolt action. This led me to design a case based on the Weatherby case shortened to 2.500" and necked to accomodate a .505" bullet.

John obligingly supplied me with a barrel for my project and the rifle was assembled using a P14 Enfield action, test fired and fitted with a stock by Reinhart Fajan. At that point, I was dispayed to learn that since the .505 Gibbs is a propriatary cartridge, bullets in that caliber were not available commercially from the manufacturer of the ammunition, Kynoch. The Barnes bullet company made two versions of a .505 bullet, both with jackets made from copper tubing, a 600 grain soft point and a 600 grain solid. I tried them out and was not impressed. However, at about that time I was able to secure a supply of .500 Nitro Express 570 grain steel jacketed bullets, which, although they were .510" in diameter, as opposed to the .505" bullets, could be adapted for use in my rifle. I was able to achieve velocities of 2150 fps with the modified bullets, the same as a .500 Nitro Express, so I felt no handicap from a lack of original 535 grain Gibbs bullets.

I fired full loads with my 8 3/4 pound rifle only to test ammunition and to secure a reliable zero with the Lyman 48 aperture rear sight and the Patridge front sight. These were fired using my
version of a "lead sled" based on a similar device, a Preuss Gerät, which I had seen in use at the Krieghoff factory in Germany. Afterwards, all my practice was done with light loads and cast bullets, which served to make me totally familiar with the working of the rifle and the use of the sights.

This is the rifle I took with me to Africa with the idea of using it exclusively on thick skinned game (elephant, rhinoceros) and large and aggressive thin skinned game (Cape buffalo). On other thin skinned game I considered my .375 H&H to be totally adequate.

Things worked out exactly as planned, and I successfully accounted for three elephants, five Cape buffalo and a rhino, with the PH shooting only at the first elephant and the rhino,
the latter shots being totally ineffectual. When I questioned the PH as to why he had found it necessary to add his contribution to an elephant already on the ground, he pointed out that
the action had taken place only a few hundred yards away from the boundary of a game refuge, and if the elephant had regained its feet and made it across the boundary, it would have been
lost. The two shots he contributed to the rhino consisted of one shot which grazed the animals front horn and another which keyholed in his left hip. On successive safaris my PH never fired his rifle, since my two brain shots on elephant were successful and All the buffalo were either found dead or finished off by me.

My cartridge, the .505 SRE, is the one in the middle of the photo, with my .450 C&W on the left and my .577 VSRE on the right. The bullet in the front is a 570 grain Kynoch full metal jacket.

Wow this is quite interesting! A friend of mine has used the same concept in developing the .423 Lucas which is basically a necked up .375 Ruger. It fits a standard action.
@Hunter -habib - Doc Kevin used .600 gn Woodleigh ( the only ones in the World and made just for him) his Northfork are 525 gns.

 

[xausa]

Oh . I understand . So the Pattern 14 Enfield is originally a standard length action , which gunsmiths open up to Magnum length .

Overall length (OAL) comparison:
P-13 Enfield .276 Enfield OAL 3.23" (82mm)
P-14 Enfield .303 British OAL 3.075" (79.11 mm)
M1917 Enfield .30-'06 US OAL 3.34" (85mm)
.505 SRE OAL 3.300"(84 mm)
.505 Gibbs OAL 3.850"(97.8mm)

 

[Rare Breed]

Actually rather than just case capacity it is the type of powder and quantity. For example if you change the .500 NE powder to H-4831 then you need 113.5 grains to reach 2,150 which also brings the recoil impulse up to 88.6 lb/fts

So, if there were powders that required less powder in the case for the Jefferey and Gibbs at the same ballistics WHILE being safe then their recoil impulse would go down.

Tanks. I just bought a 500 NE. What powder, load grains, % shell capacity and FPS do you get please?

 

[Tanks]

Tanks. I just bought a 500 NE. What powder, load grains, % shell capacity and FPS do you get please?

PM inbound. Here is some published data as well. BTW, just like all new load development start well below indicated loads and work up.

 

[rookhawk]

As a general rule of thumb for duplicating original regulation and the lowest recoil at a given velocity, your first stop is trying a load with 3031. Failing that, you then try imr4350, and if that fails you go to RL15. Last try for the worst recoil, but often the powder that regulates is your last stop with 4831.

This is what I was taught by Ken Owen and what has worked for me on several rifles now.

3031 is as close as you can get to the original cordite loads. So if the rifle was regulated for Kynoch ammo originally, this is the powder that will reproduce those properties.

Using 4831 I’d have a bruised shoulder and flinch my shots, using IMR3031 it felt like the difference between a 500NE and a 375HH by comparison.