CEB crimp issue?

[Brandon.Gleason]

I'm in the midst of loading our final batch of ammo for Zambia (leaving in 5 weeks!). Both I and my usual hunting partner are using CEB safari raptors and solids for this hunt. We're primarily bringing raptors, but I'm loading each of us 10 solids. I've loaded hundreds of CEB bullets in years past, using the same technique of seating die to depth, and then Lee factory crimp die to crimp. In loading Greg's solids for his .416 Rem Mag, seating to 3.600, four out of the ten bullets I can freely spin in the case neck, but not have any fore or aft movement of the bullet into/out of the case. COAL is exactly the same on the immobile bullets as the mobile ones. I've rechecked setting on the crimp die, and its giving a good crimp. I'm thinking I might be just behind the driving band and not quite catching the bullet? But I'm perplexed I have no fore/aft movement of the bullet in the case. Anyone ever experience this? I've, ultimately, loaded 4 more solids and they're well seated. I've never had this trouble with .375 H&H or .458 Lott with the safari solids in the past.

 

[TOBY458]

I believe the mouth of your case is crimped down into the groove between the driving bands. But it seems your case necks don’t have enough tension either. What kind of sizing die are you using?

 

[deewayne2003]

I believe the mouth of your case is crimped down into the groove between the driving bands. But it seems your case necks don’t have enough tension either. What kind of sizing die are you using?

I believe Toby is spot on, something is up with the neck tension and it could be that the expanding ball in the sizing die came out of adjustment while sizing or the sizing die backed out while sizing.

Have you tried chambering the rounds that free spin?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree about the suspicions on the neck tension. Is the brass new or are they previously used?

 

[Rare Breed]

I'm in the midst of loading our final batch of ammo for Zambia (leaving in 5 weeks!). Both I and my usual hunting partner are using CEB safari raptors and solids for this hunt. We're primarily bringing raptors, but I'm loading each of us 10 solids. I've loaded hundreds of CEB bullets in years past, using the same technique of seating die to depth, and then Lee factory crimp die to crimp. In loading Greg's solids for his .416 Rem Mag, seating to 3.600, four out of the ten bullets I can freely spin in the case neck, but not have any fore or aft movement of the bullet into/out of the case. COAL is exactly the same on the immobile bullets as the mobile ones. I've rechecked setting on the crimp die, and it’s giving a good crimp. I'm thinking I might be just behind the driving band and not quite catching the bullet? But I'm perplexed I have no fore/aft movement of the bullet in the case. Anyone ever experience this? I've, ultimately, loaded 4 more solids and they're well seated. I've never had this trouble with .375 H&H or .458 Lott with the safari solids in the past.

First I love CEB especially for elephant. I had two in my box that were slightly undersized that they could be twisted by hand after seating. I just discarded them after checking that all my others seated perfectly

 

[MacJenkins]

Long time user of CEB bullets as well. Are the bullets loose before crimping? I crimp right under the first driving band closest to the ogive. So 3 bands are in the case.

I have had some harsh crimps with Lee Crip Dies, and have had machinist friends modify them to be a slight taper crimp. I generally use a standard seating die to crimp my CEB rounds after seating them fully to legnth.

 

[Brandon.Gleason]

I agree about the suspicions on the neck tension. Is the brass new or are they previously used?

These are brand new Norma cases that were resized with an FL Lee die. I’ve been using the same Lee die for three years reloading for that caliber. Definitely a new problem. I’ll mic some bullets tonight to check that sizing as well.

 

[SRvet]

I had the same issue with .458 Lott rounds. I thought it was me having made an error with the neck expander die or perhaps with the crimp die. I set the loose ones aside for practice.

 

[Lance Hopper]

I had the same issue loading a 450 nitro express, but I quit using the flaring die, and the problem went away. Not sure if you’re shooting a straight wall cartridge or not, but those seem to give the most problems with that.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

These are brand new Norma cases that were resized with an FL Lee die. I’ve been using the same Lee die for three years reloading for that caliber. Definitely a new problem. I’ll mic some bullets tonight to check that sizing as well.

Well it’s not due to the brass being hardened then. Putting a mic to the bullets seems to be the next logical and simple step.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Do the spin before the crimp. Crimping can do weird thing to neck tension. Measure the bullets with a micrometer, not a caliper.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Had exactly the same problem in my 450 NE. Some of the loaded CEB solid bullets spun in the case after crimping.
Ended up shooting a elephant bull with that ammo. He went down and was dead before he hit the ground with a perfect side brain shot.

I paid the insurance as per the PH’s instructions.

Every time after firing a round I broke the action and loaded a fresh round in the right chamber…,after 3 insurance shots all fired from the right barrel I tried to remove the cartridge from the left chamber….it was a not budging come hell or high water.

The CEB solid lodged itself in the throat of the rifle barrel despite being crimped (Lee taper crimp). I had a heck of a time getting the cartridge out of the chamber and after prying it out with a knife I ended up with an action full of gunpowder and a bullet lodged in the barrel which I was only able to remove when I got back home.

 

[BourbonTrail]

I also had issues early on with getting the 416 CEB’s to stay put. After following the other recommendations, I would also try backing off your crimp step by step and see if there’s a spot where it distorts your neck. There’s a sweet spot for that crimp with those CEB’s (also seating depth).

I have had an awful time with my lee dies compared to my Weatherby dies (stuck cases, longer setup time), good luck figuring it out.

 

[fourfive8]

Try backing out body of bullet seating die a turn. Then readjust seating stem to desired bullet seating depth. Best place for crimp on bullet shank is just behind a drive band or at forward edge of crimp groove. A Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) will not loosen bullet in neck. Case mouth hitting roll crimp shoulder in bullet seating die during bullet seating stroke can wrinkle case neck and lessen neck tension. Backing out the bullet seating die then readjusting seating stem for seating depth will prevent that.

Before loading even new brass, trim to recommended length then trim as needed. That solves/prevent several potential problems.

 

[Brandon.Gleason]

Long time user of CEB bullets as well. Are the bullets loose before crimping? I crimp right under the first driving band closest to the ogive. So 3 bands are in the case.

I have had some harsh crimps with Lee Crip Dies, and have had machinist friends modify them to be a slight taper crimp. I generally use a standard seating die to crimp my CEB rounds after seating them fully to legnth.

Rereading this prompted some thoughts. There were a few with less than expected force in seating the bullets. I'm wondering if I had something screwy when I set the sizing die up. I'm going to take it apart tonight and clean the expander ball, check the alignment with the stem, and resize/reload a few more new cases. I'll measure bullets while I'm at it. I don't own a mic, currently, so we'll see if amazon can get me one by the time I get home from meetings tonight.

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@michael458, would you have any thoughts on this matter?

 

[MacJenkins]

Rereading this prompted some thoughts. There were a few with less than expected force in seating the bullets. I'm wondering if I had something screwy when I set the sizing die up. I'm going to take it apart tonight and clean the expander ball, check the alignment with the stem, and resize/reload a few more new cases. I'll measure bullets while I'm at it. I don't own a mic, currently, so we'll see if amazon can get me one by the time I get home from meetings tonight.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Most of my big bore dies don't even come with an expander ball. Try removing that and see how much tighter that makes the neck. You will probably need to lightly flare your case for seating. Larger the case the more flare I have found is needed for CEB's as the larger the diameter the case neck is weaker with most brass.

 

[fourfive8]

There is a limit to brass memory and how much decreasing neck ID relative to bullet shank OD will increase neck tension.

Also may be some definition/terminology errors and confusion creeping into the discussion. A Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) uses a collet compression system. It is not the same as nor at all related to the Lee Bullet Seating Die which has a roll crimp shoulder within the die. Most common bullet seating dies have a similar roll crimp shoulder within the die. Nearly impossible for a Lee FCD to alter neck tension. The roll crimp shoulder in a common bullet seating die certainly can decrease neck tension.

 

[roklok]

Apart from the spinning issue I learned the hard way to crimp the CEB solids between driving bands and not in front of the front band. There is a slight groove in front of front band, but it is not enough to prevent bullet setback from battering in magazine box. It would probably be fine on a double, but not a magazine rifle.

 

[zephyr]

Which Bullet did you buy ??
CEB makes a .457 dia Bullet for the 450NE and a .458 dia Bullet for the Lott, Win Mag and others