CBL Banned??

[HankBuck]

I mean, at some point you have to stop somewhere in pursuit of an animal. I've never hunted free-range Africa (I want to badly) but I do know that many of those areas are very strictly enforced quotas. They need to be but with that comes challenges. HF areas vary in size. Some have self-sustaining populations. There are so many variables.

What I am saying is every area has limits to some point.

I know very little about CBL other than I would never do it and they behave much different than true wild ones.

The point goes back to that if we don't unite we will all fall at some point. CBL is like tower shooting here. I have no idea how someone finds enjoyment from shooting farm raised game birds released all at once out of a tower. But once you ban that...it cracks the door. Then it becomes "Well, maybe we should stop pheasant stocking?" or "Maybe we should ban high fence hunting all together?"

@HookMeUpII - you make a point that many other AH members have raised and opinions differ. Some agree with You that “at some point” animals are inhibited from traveling whether by a Fence or other type of barrier — it’s only a matter of How far they can travel before hitting a barrier. I am one that sees a clear line between High Fence and Free Range and Boone & Crocket also seems to have No trouble distinguishing between Fenced & Free Range. I also believe Hunters should decide what they feel good about and enjoy, laws vary (stay within the Law) and everyone’s ethics can also vary.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

If your Single buddy goes out Friday Night and Sunday tells you “I picked up a gorgeous blond at a bar and had great sex with her all weekend”….but leaves out She-was-a-Hooker, wouldn’t that be relevant?

This one made me laugh, and yes, at least for my entertainment, the last bit is overly relevant. But really, in this bar, don’t we all pay to play. I haven’t had fun around this bar that I didn’t pay for. So maybe the issue is more an argument of my kind escort is ok but your kind of hooker isn’t.

I understand how this thread is purposeful and apparently very necessary since CBL isn’t totally banned in another 18-24-36 months or whatever the date may be, and it’s not just a thread to back bite and argue because we have nothing else better to discuss….but after all these pages, is anything new being said or just more of the same? Certainly reads like we devolved from what might have started as a debate to something far inferior. More nu uh, oh ya, nu uh…repeat…repeat.

Can we maybe get back to the escort and hooker part of this discussion. Maybe “Pretty Woman” it up in here some. Are they exportable to the US? Should it make a difference with CITES if they are classified as escort or hooker? Are male and female of the species open or?

Or maybe debate fly fishing stocked rivers vs wild run, and if both are ok so long as you catch and release vs put and take?

I’ll be honest, at this point I’d rather go read the back biting arguments of why vegetarians are killing the world and only real vegans go to heaven…and how that offends half the readers’ delicate feelers because it interjects a religious presumption to the debate.

Love all yall, but this horse is starting to stink. Life’s too short, moving on. Someone tag me if something novel is brought to the discussion, or truly humorous/entertaining…

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Wildwillalaska only Freegan Vegans get into heaven. Lets discuss that lifestyle, haha.

 

[375Fox]

I make this comment as nonjudgmentally as possible. How is shooting a CBL much different than a pen raised Cape Buffalo? Tons of buffalo are shot in RSA. Some of them may have just been dropped off the truck into the preserve. I've seen posts on here where guys post a pic standing outside the fenced pen and the next pic is with a dead cape buffalo.

I have no desire to shoot either under those circumstances but banning CBL may then lead to banning buffalo, sable, roan, etc. Those are all heavily put and take animals in RSA.

The slope is very slippery. Money is the deciding factor on multiple fronts here.

I won’t understand why anyone wants to waste their money shooting a put and take buffalo, but I do find it less offensive. No CBL lion will contribute to a self sustaining population. The farmers don’t want them their land more than a few days. A majority of buffalo will be used to supplement “self sustaining” herds even if they are harvested that same year. I put “self sustaining” in quotes because the ratio of bulls to cows in these herds could be debated, but the cows do have calves. The timeline to harvest is that season to several years for the stocked bulls. They’d be living an existence that resembles wild buffalo. CBL lion are commercially raised then stocked into the fenced area. The harvest is measured in days not years. Interesting, the province where the majority of these harvesting events take place the legal release time is measured in hours. However, the biggest difference between the two to me is CBL has been combined with the tourist trade for cub petting and the bone trade. That crosses a line for me. Hunting is just the final harvesting method for a farm animal. It shouldn’t be a hunting practice. However, if I was a CBL lion farmer with no ethics I’d probably have no problem maximizing the value from each animal either and lying to the tourists and hunters to keep it going. There seem to be plenty willing to believe the lie and pay for both activities.

 

[375Fox]

I understand how this thread is purposeful and apparently very necessary since CBL isn’t totally banned in another 18-24-36 months or whatever the date may be, and it’s not just a thread to back bite and argue because we have nothing else better to discuss….but after all these pages, is anything new being said or just more of the same? Certainly reads like we devolved from what might have started as a debate to something far inferior. More nu uh, oh ya, nu uh…repeat…repeat.

Can we maybe get back to the escort and hooker part of this discussion. Maybe “Pretty Woman” it up in here some. Are they exportable to the US? Should it make a difference with CITES if they are classified as escort or hooker? Are male and female of the species open or?

Or maybe debate fly fishing stocked rivers vs wild run, and if both are ok so long as you catch and release vs put and take?

I’ll be honest, at this point I’d rather go read the back biting arguments of why vegetarians are killing the world and only real vegans go to heaven…and how that offends half the readers’ delicate feelers because it interjects a religious presumption to the debate.

Love all yall, but this horse is starting to stink. Life’s too short, moving on. Someone tag me if something novel is brought to the discussion, or truly humorous/entertaining…

I highly doubt CBL will ever be banned. It was getting banned in 21, then in 23 it was getting banned in 25, now it’s 2026. I wish it would get banned so I never had to see a discussion about it again, but South Africa has bigger problems.

 

[STXhammer]

Your inventory getting eaten is bad for business…

Releasing a specific animal from captivity just to be hunted isn’t really a hunt, in my opinion.

Has anyone ever booked a CBL hunt and gone home without killing one? It’s harvesting.

The usual rebuttal is that South African operations release antelope too and nobody complains about that. The difference is that on good operations those antelopes are part of self sustaining populations. They reproduce, create multiple generation on the land, and actually live and interact naturally.

The CBL system isn’t that in the slightest.

Some people just want to check a box it seems… conservation and a true wildlife experience be damned! A bucket list animal that they will kill by any means.

There is no conservation fullcircle moment in the CBL system. Theirs is no romance to it. It just feels wrong.

I guess to some that view point makes me a leftist anti hunter? Not reality but oh well.

Out of curiosity how many animals have you not harvested that you have came to Africa to hunt ?

 

[STXhammer]

I never understood why as hunters we cannot all stand side by side. We all love the hunting industry but seem to constantly be at each others throats about seemingly everything. The anti-hunters are a strong unified group cause they all have 1 common goal. Us we argue about the littlest things. And forget about the big picture.

 

[dchum]

Out of curiosity how many animals have you not harvested that you have came to Africa to hunt ?

On my two safaris, That would be a total count of 4 animals I wished to take that I was unable to kill.

That’s Hunting, Im sure you were trying to play gotcha and make a point? Sorry

 

[375Fox]

I never understood why as hunters we cannot all stand side by side. We all love the hunting industry but seem to constantly be at each others throats about seemingly everything. The anti-hunters are a strong unified group cause they all have 1 common goal. Us we argue about the littlest things. And forget about the big picture.

I never understood why certain hunters are willing to participate in “hunting” activities that are detrimental to hunting. I should stand side by side with you when you are an anti-hunting asset? No. Every hunting organization outside South Africa opposes this activity. Who is the problem?

 

[dchum]

We all love the hunting industry

Not if that is including picked out hand fed lions being released from trailers only to be killed by some "hunter".

 

[STXhammer]

If you don’t mind me asking, how do you define hunting? Is a wild lion hunt on its natural range still true hunting, even if you didn’t personally spend days scouting, hanging baits, or building blinds? In many of those scenarios, you’re the one with the rifle making the shot, but the success depends heavily on the knowledge, tracking, and preparation of PH and trackers. I’m not opposed to any legal form of hunting — people should pursue whatever brings them fulfillment, whether it’s backpacking solo into the backcountry or booking a guided safari. That said, where does the ‘hunting’ end and the ‘shooting’ begin? Is it only authentic hunting if you fly to Africa alone, rent a vehicle, find huntable land, and do everything without assistance? I’m genuinely curious where you draw the line.

 

[STXhammer]

On my two safaris, That would be a total count of 4 animals I wished to take that I was unable to kill.

That’s Hunting, Im sure you were trying to play gotcha and make a point? Sorry

Was not trying to make a gotcha point at all I was curious. Just trying to have a conversation on here not everything has to be hostile.

 

[dchum]

If you don’t mind me asking, how do you define hunting? Is a wild lion hunt on its natural range still true hunting, even if you didn’t personally spend days scouting, hanging baits, or building blinds? In many of those scenarios, you’re the one with the rifle making the shot, but the success depends heavily on the knowledge, tracking, and preparation of PH and trackers. I’m not opposed to any legal form of hunting — people should pursue whatever brings them fulfillment, whether it’s backpacking solo into the backcountry or booking a guided safari. That said, where does the ‘hunting’ end and the ‘shooting’ begin? Is it only authentic hunting if you fly to Africa alone, rent a vehicle, find huntable land, and do everything without assistance? I’m genuinely curious where you draw the line.

Saving my breath, my guess is you have not read through the entire thread and just started commenting. First is Conservation. One supports and the other does not.

Read the thread, all these points have been made and countered.

 

[revturbo9967]

I hate to admit it but it's a good comparison.

I make this comment as nonjudgmentally as possible. How is shooting a CBL much different than a pen raised Cape Buffalo? Tons of buffalo are shot in RSA. Some of them may have just been dropped off the truck into the preserve. I've seen posts on here where guys post a pic standing outside the fenced pen and the next pic is with a dead cape buffalo.

I have no desire to shoot either under those circumstances but banning CBL may then lead to banning buffalo, sable, roan, etc. Those are all heavily put and take animals in RSA.

The slope is very slippery. Money is the deciding factor on multiple fronts here.

Yes, I would put cape buffalo in the same category. To me, theres no meaningful difference between raising a cape buffalo or a lion behind a fence and then dropping it into a pen to be shot. The only reason buffalo operations are tolerated more is because, in some cases, introduced animals are meant to strengthen breeding programs and build sustainable populations, not simply serve as a trophy.

If a large property brings in buffalo bulls for breeding and herd improvement, that’s one thing. If a 45-inch bull is hauled in and released solely so someone can shoot it, I don’t see how that’s any different from a captive bred lion.

Personally, I’d rather see all high fences disappear and wildlife managed as free ranging populations. Then the discussion shifts away from farming animals for dollars and toward protecting habitat and maintaining healthy wild populations. Hunters would be supporting the resource itself instead of debating where the line is between hunting and livestock production.

 

[375Fox]

If you don’t mind me asking, how do you define hunting? Is a wild lion hunt on its natural range still true hunting, even if you didn’t personally spend days scouting, hanging baits, or building blinds? In many of those scenarios, you’re the one with the rifle making the shot, but the success depends heavily on the knowledge, tracking, and preparation of PH and trackers. I’m not opposed to any legal form of hunting — people should pursue whatever brings them fulfillment, whether it’s backpacking solo into the backcountry or booking a guided safari. That said, where does the ‘hunting’ end and the ‘shooting’ begin? Is it only authentic hunting if you fly to Africa alone, rent a vehicle, find huntable land, and do everything without assistance? I’m genuinely curious where you draw the line.

There was an earlier comment made on here about the phrase “genuinely curious.”

 

[revturbo9967]

I never understood why as hunters we cannot all stand side by side. We all love the hunting industry but seem to constantly be at each others throats about seemingly everything. The anti-hunters are a strong unified group cause they all have 1 common goal. Us we argue about the littlest things. And forget about the big picture.

I'm tired of hearing, "why won't hunters stand with other hunters"?

The problem is that a large portion of hunters don't view put and take operations or released trophy animals as hunting in the first place. Whether you agree with that or not, pretending it's some fringe opinion is stupid. A lot of hunters, especially in the US, draw a line there.

So asking everyone to stand together because we're all hunters misses the point. That's like asking marathon runners to defend the guy who took an uber to mile 25 and jogged the last mile because you both finished the race. Or asking a mountain climber to applaud the guy who paid for a helicopter ride to the summit because you both made it to the top.

People stand together when they believe they're participating in the same activity. The entire debate exists because many hunters don't believe dropping an animal behind a fence to be shot is the same thing as hunting a wild animal. You can't demand unity while refusing to acknowledge why so many people reject the comparison in the first place.

 

[STXhammer]

Who decides what is and isn’t considered hunting ?

 

[Russ16]

Who decides what is and isn’t considered hunting ?

Each individual gets to decide that on their own. Just because you shoot something doesn't make it hunting.

For me there are three categories at issue here.

1. Things that are legal and that appeal to me
2. Things that are legal but don't appeal to me so I won't ever do them. The lack of appeal can be for many different reasons.
3. Things that are legal but I don't think should be. This is an opinion but for each of these activities an that I can explain based on my views and experiences. Anyone is welcome to disagree.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I won’t understand why anyone wants to waste their money shooting a put and take buffalo, but I do find it less offensive. No CBL lion will contribute to a self sustaining population. The farmers don’t want them their land more than a few days. A majority of buffalo will be used to supplement “self sustaining” herds even if they are harvested that same year. I put “self sustaining” in quotes because the ratio of bulls to cows in these herds could be debated, but the cows do have calves. The timeline to harvest is that season to several years for the stocked bulls. They’d be living an existence that resembles wild buffalo. CBL lion are commercially raised then stocked into the fenced area. The harvest is measured in days not years. Interesting, the province where the majority of these harvesting events take place the legal release time is measured in hours. However, the biggest difference between the two to me is CBL has been combined with the tourist trade for cub petting and the bone trade. That crosses a line for me. Hunting is just the final harvesting method for a farm animal. It shouldn’t be a hunting practice. However, if I was a CBL lion farmer with no ethics I’d probably have no problem maximizing the value from each animal either and lying to the tourists and hunters to keep it going. There seem to be plenty willing to believe the lie and pay for both activities.

I can't disagree with any of what you said. Like @HankBuck mentioned, we have have to separate ethics and legality. If it's legal, doesn't mean it's ethical. If it's illegal, it's illegal, and that's just the end of that.

I personally have NO desire to shoot a penned buffalo, CBL, and honestly...don't really know I have desire to hunt HF preserves anymore. We've talked a bit personally about this. The problem here is how banning any of these not only changes the legality landscape but also the economies of demand in the industry itself.

Now, I don't believe there is a "huge" market, per say, for CBL hunting. Going back to buffalo, lets say we ban buffalo hunting in RSA because most of it is unethical. Sure, you'll have a lot of folks that then say "Well, I guess I won't do it because $10k is all I can afford in RSA." You also might have a lot of folks that make their way to Zim, Tanzania, Zambia, etc. Then they eat away at those quotas. Maybe now a buff in Zim that was $20k goes to $40k with a reduced quota due to demand. No one benefits there. Same with lions to an extent.

I'm inclined to say I support folks hunting within the legal limits/laws even if it's viewed as unethical. I am not for banning any other methods of take because it then bleeds into the industry and lifestyle as a whole.

I should say that I won't stand for someone bragging at a get together that they hosed a medicated CBL lion sleeping under a tree in a 10k acre preserve.

 

[HookMeUpII]

One thing to keep in mind is closures/bans a lot of times are a one way street: Once you go down it, you aren't coming back.

Case in point: The Atlantic mako shark population. For years, commercial guys decimated these sharks. The average size of a mako in the 80's-90's was like 400 lbs. By the mid 2010's, it was like 185 lbs. They never came up with a good management program for them so they issued a moratorium. I heard from someone who went out recently and said they saw dozens of 200 lb+ makos cruising the 20 fathom line. Can't keep them. I then happened to speak to a biologist who worked for NMFS. I asked him if he thinks they will ever re-open the fishery and the answer was "Not in our lifetime but I could be wrong."

Same with leopards in RSA.

Although I don't think CBL is at all ethical and it most certainly does not interest me...closing/banning it will have repercussions to the lifestyle and industry. It's especially stupid to ban, even though it pains me to admit it, because they are a farm-raised commodity that does take pressure off the wild populations in other areas. Supply/demand and economies of scale. Not much more we can say on a quantitative basis. Qualitative is highly arguable.