CBL Banned??

[Kharn]

No question about it, if wild lions were much more affordable versus to just a select few there would be no demand for CBL

But what about the convenience?

Some hunters (NOT talking about myself here) actually do value the Trophy more than anything else, not the journey/the hunt/the memory, just the Trophy & everything to get that Trophy is just "annoying waste of time grifting etc", They LOVE being able to pick & choose their Trophy from a neatly presented catalogue! It's WHY they are there!

It's just (lol) a matter of ""making"" CBL Hunts pay for Wild Lion Habitats, maybe CBL Hunt prices should increase so that a portion of it goes to Wild Lion Habitats? How to enforce it though... yeah ok

 

[Tanks]

No question about it, if wild lions were much more affordable versus to just a select few there would be no demand for CBL

That was not my point. My point was that CBL going away is not going to increase demand for wild hunts.

Personally, I would even like a restriction on elephant hunts to preserve the genetic stock. Either use the Tanzanian approach (6ft or so a side of visible tusk) or a minimum weight of 50lbs or so before one is able to shoot an elephant. Increase prices accordingly so it is revenue neutral.

 

[fourfive8]

Putting minimum size requirement on any trophy species puts all the pressure on exactly the segment of the population that needs protection.

 

[Tanks]

Putting minimum size requirement on any trophy species puts all the pressure on exactly the segment of the population that needs protection.

Seems to work for Tanzania. Not to mention most lions, leopards etc. have an age limit for the free range countries.

 

[Russ16]

Seems to work for Tanzania. Not to mention most lions, leopards etc. have an age limit for the free range countries.

It’s a fine balance. There are some areas where a species just doesn’t get as big.

I don’t know about elephant genetics but with deer you need to take some of the smaller ones to eliminate their genetics. Not sure if that’s the case with tusks.

 

[fourfive8]

Biologically, the most expendable in a population is the younger age class. But psychologically, sport hunters forever have campaigned against shooting younger animals. Ideally, harvests should be numerically limited and reflective of a level among all age classes and sexes to maintain a healthy, reproductive population. A complete understanding of compensatory mortality should be required prior to making what usually degenerates into politically based harvest decisions. In many populations, sufficient % of older males and breeding male dominance can play a critical role in population reproductive health, group survival and overall population resilience.

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

Looks like an interesting and relevant read:

Cuddle Me, Kill Me: A True Account of South Africa's Captive Lion Breeding and Canned Hunting Industry​

by Richard Peirce

Canned lion hunting sprang to the world’s attention with the 2015 launch of the documentary, Blood Lions. This movie blew the cover off a brutal industry that has burgeoned in the last decade or so, operating largely under the radar of public concern.

In Cuddle Me Kill Me, Richard Peirce

- He tells the true story of two male lions rescued from breeding farms
- The exploitation and misery of these apex predators when they are bred in captivity
- How young cubs are removed from their mothers mere hours after birth
- How they are first used for petting by an adoring (and paying) public
- Their subsequent use for ‘walking with lions’ tourism
- And how, in the final stage of exploitation, they are served up in fenced enclosure for execution by canned hunters – or simply shot by breeders for the value of their carcass, a prized product in the East.

Well researched by Peirce with the help of an undercover agent, and illustrated with photos taken along the way, this is a disturbing and passionate plea to end commercial captive lion breeding and the repurposing of wildlife to cater for human greed.

 

[mark-hunter]

Looks like an interesting and relevant read:

This is antihunting agenda.

What is the difference between lion farm in South Africa, and tiger farm in China?
Well, lion farm is closely related to hunting industry, and that is bad. We dont want hunting around in modern urban world.

In China, they raise tigers on the farm for purpose of traditional medicine.

So, which one goes to bad press?
CBL you can find all over the internet and media, only few articles here and there about tiger farming.

 

[Russ16]

This is antihunting agenda.

What is the difference between lion farm in South Africa, and tiger farm in China?
Well, lion farm is closely related to hunting industry, and that is bad. We dont want hunting around in modern urban world.

In China, they raise tigers on the farm for purpose of traditional medicine.

So, which one goes to bad press?
CBL you can find all over the internet and media, only few articles here and there about tiger farming.

The lack of a free press in China and the difficulty in reporting on their activities is a big part of that.

Lots of Chinese practices are abhorrent and rarely reported on.

 

[mark-hunter]

Yes, maybe.
But "free press" is legacy of western countries, and 1st amendment which is implemented in various legal form in western world.
It is not exactly flourishing on African continent.

It is the western press on the offensive against international hunting.
There are some bad practices with CBL, which come conveniently for them.

Western press is also not banned of access in China to report back in home countries.
But they are selective in their work.

And there is a reason for selectiveness.
It is called cherry picking and is one of major propaganda tools.
They qoute 8000 tigers bred in captivity in China, twice the number of tigers in the wild.
Its big business.
(But apparently not so interesting for western press, because it has nothing to do with hunting).

https://www.worldwildlife.org/news/stories/what-i-saw-at-a-chinese-tiger-farm-and-what-it-means-for-wild-tigers/

 

[375Fox]

And there is a reason for selectiveness.
It is called cherry picking and is one of major propaganda tools.
They qoute 8000 tigers bred in captivity in China, twice the number of tigers in the wild.
Its big business.
(But apparently not so interesting for western press, because it has nothing to do with hunting).

The Chinese also don’t market cub petting or tiger shooting events to westerners. South Africans brought this down on themselves. There were tiger shooting events sold in South Africa a few years ago too by the way. We shouldn’t be defending this as hunting. It’s commercial farming with a unique harvesting method. As much as I find CBL reprehensible, if it was done quietly where I didn’t see or hear of it and no one else did either, I’d find it an acceptable compromise. It appears to be going that direction now if it isn’t banned.

 

[mark-hunter]

South Africans brought this down on themselves.

I agree with that - they did advertising and this brought down the public wrath on them.
But other half of blame is on hunters blasting pictures around on internet.
What better evidence antihunters need?
All they need to do is spin it, and add few morality phrases about blood thirsty white hunters from our communities.

Almost all antihunting campaigns started by making a spin of the photos of hunters with animals, who posted their own pictures around.

There were tiger shooting events sold in South Africa a few years ago too by the way.

True. At least one tiger shot in South Africa, I found on this forum. I was surprised.
But somehow this practise vanished from public domaine

It’s commercial farming with a unique harvesting method.

True.

As much as I find CBL reprehensible, if it was done quietly where I didn’t see or hear of it and no one else did either, I’d find it an acceptable compromise.

I agree.
But still, I would not ban it, even if I will not participate in it. To each, his own.

 

[Azklmsr]

Pretty interesting topic. Lots of passion on both sides. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.

For me, it comes down to do I personally see it as a sporting activity. Few of us on this forum argue that truly wind lion hunting is anything by very sporting. Current CBL hunting as I understand it, doesn't pass my personal hurdle. That's me and I'm not feeling the need to drive others into my perspective.

Could it be made sporting. I think so. Animals released on sufficiently large enough property and in numbers that allow them to congregate and act like a pride. A hunt that is not running 100%. Cost that are a lot more than the typical, but not to the cost of a hunt in Tanzania. I'd consider that. Again, that's me.

I bow hunt. I use a recurve. I spear fish, breath-hold only. I rifle hunt, but I don't have an interest in a 400+ yrd shot ( ok, truth be known, my longest ever was 215 yards on a white tail in east texas and that was with a scoped pistol). My hunt success is likely super low compared to many. It's ok with me.

Someone wants to do a CBL and they value the experience. Do it. I'm good and not judging you. Got no problem with shooting cow elk over alfalfa for the freezer. Not same as mountain hunts in my native AZ on public land, but then again, I've gotten a near perfect (zero) record on the latter? LOl

My point is that I think CBL as it is conducted today does not attract me. I think it could be modified to attract me. I think some like it and if they are hunter brothers, I'm not looking down on them.

Just 1 guys 2 cents

Go in Peace

Kurt

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Seems to work for Tanzania. Not to mention most lions, leopards etc. have an age limit for the free range countries.

I think regulations are double edged swords in many respects and what works for Tanzania coming out of a huge poaching era may not prove equally applicable to areas of Zimbabwe or Botswana. What folks in their golden years with decades of experience seem to say is even in areas with overpopulation issues, they seem more vacant of the size class that was present or more abundant 20-30+ years ago. I’m a lawyer not a biologist, so I can’t conclude if it’s something where higher population densities means less core nutrients for ivory growth (like deer antlers), one biologist on a podcast says no, or if it’s more a situation of breeding stock removal. Maybe it’s folks shooting too soon and not waiting to see if there is yet another older bull, since there is at least some discussion as to the incredible amount of ivory pushed out late in life well after the last set of molars…granted that pertained to Kruger bulls, so not sure if equally pertinent to other gentic populations.

I’m in no way saying Alaska’s fish and game regs are the pinnacle, because they are overly confusing for most, but for certain species (big game and fish) they do essentially a slot limit. Younger, non-trophy meat animals/fish and then older, past maturity requirements. It protects the core breeding age population…granted it protects those of both great and sub-par genetics.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I actually hate the CBL debates in hunting forums. In part because I hate hunters arguing with hunters over disparity or difference in opinion of hunting practices. It only damages hunting more than the varied practices itself. It’s why I think hunters hurt hunting as much as anti-hunters. I don’t think anti-hunters bicker and back-bite over how to bitch and bemoan about hunters. But as a group, we are always so quick to bicker and back-bite each other.

I’m not saying we should turn blind eye to illegal hunting or unethical practices, but send a PM or advocate for better practices without poo-poo-ing your hunting brethren.

I then more than anything hate CBL debates as I am 100% conflicted about doing one. I’ll admit, I don’t give a slightest care if someone wants to go and shoot pen raised quail or CBL. Is it as sporting as a wild quail or lion, of course not, but I dont stand in judgment of someone who chooses to, of course not. I don’t like high fences…like not at all. But fully admit they make sense in South Africa. While I’ve never hunting a small or cross fenced property, I have hunted a South African high fenced property. Took my teen daughter hunting on several. Do I personally feel they are as sporting as unfenced…no, but that’s my personal feeling and not based on any kind of empirical data. I fully admit that some of the South African fenced properties, the game is exponentially more skittish than more wild areas I’ve hunted in Zimbabwe and Botswana. So even with my personal bias that high-fenced properties are not for me, it doesn’t make them canned hunts either, and potentially even more difficult.

So why I really hate the CBL debates is they make me feel almost dirty since I find myself considering doing one. Total COSTCO style…I don’t even care if it’s a male or lioness. I don’t want to dedicate 7-10 days to one either. I just kind of want to experience tracking lion once, with the ability to take one if the opportunity presented. I don’t like hunting from a blind or over bait if I can help it. I grew up deer hunting our own ranch from various blinds and feeders, and I was over it before starting high school. I still did it and enjoyed the time with my father, but took to bow and handgun hunting, then traditional archery, anything to make it more interesting. Mostly, it’s the boredom of just sitting there that I didn’t like, so still hunted and stalked every chance I got. I’ve done black bear bait sites and the like in Alaska and while productive and have zero issue with it as a practice, it’s not that much fun for me. Do I think baiting is as sporting as going out, glassing, spotting, and stalking in for your shot…of course not…but some species and environment simply isn’t conducive to spot and stalk or tracking. Baiting and sitting a blind make sense. The idea of tracking a CBL male or female sounds honestly intriguing if the property is big enough and they were released long enough before the hunt.

BUT….i don’t know that I feel sporting in a lion released a month or two before. So as much as I’d like to track a lion, I don’t know that I’ll ever do a CBL hunt because of that component, and not sure I’d do a wild lion hunt as I sure as hell am not paying anywhere close to what they cost and have to hunt from a blind over bait. I figure someday when my knees and/or hips go from sheep hunting, I may change my mind and take a leopard but until then, at least until CBL is no more…I’m conflicted and perched between just not being a cat guy at all or feeling a little dirty and doing an abbreviated tracked CBL…that honestly I’d probably enjoy more coming home empty handed. It is one of those situations where I’d enjoy the track and chase more than the kill.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Lastly, all the talk about conservation, are we not allowed to hunt something anymore if it’s not for conservation? I do want to promote conservation, here in the US and anywhere I hunt, but some hunts benefit the conservation model more than others. I dont know that all hunts benefit conservation, at least in the states. I think we are reaching a time where many of our limited draw hunts are not necessarily helping conservation. Now the governors tags that are raffled off and auctioned for big money, those absolutely help. It’s why we should be happy when you hear a sheep tag auctioned for over a million dollars in Reno…those dollars eclipse the tag fees for all others sheep sold in that state combined. One elite hunter just donated more than everyone else combined for the chance to hunt. That’s putting money into conservation.

If I draw a tag, go hunt a population that is low enough that we have to do the lottery to allow a lucky few to hunt, is that population better off if I get on an animal and chose to photograph it vs shoot it? The kind thing might be to just photograph it…but I admit I want to kill it. I want to kill and eat it. Does me killing that ram help the population or help conservation…my dollars do to a much smaller extent. Does me killing a whitetail or exotic behind a high fence in Texas help conservation? Maybe somehow in some way…and while I’m not a high fence guy…I’m totally down with someone who it. Go do it and enjoy it.

If you want to go buy a cow from a rancher and show up and shoot it…go do it. It’s a far better end than it will find at the locker plant. I love hunting and enjoy killing the meat we eat whenever possible…even when it’s not saving the species or the environment. When I harvest a moose, I’m not saving the planet and I’m not putting thousands of dollars into conservation. It’s a free over the counter tag…I’m feeding my family and having fun doing it.

I think it’s good to try and promote conservation always, and absolutely feel good about your dollars helping someone, and the meat helping others…but I also think we shouldn’t feel guilty hunting something for the sport and enjoyment of the hunt when it’s not directly promoting conservation on that specific animal. The sport as a whole, helps conservation tremendously. And while that CBL hunt may not help conservation of that species, the dollars raised from the hunt might help promote the conservation or preservation of a hunting area, keep a mom/pop business going, and maybe keep an operator operating that promotes the conservation of other species.

I say hunt your hunt, don’t shame your hunting brethren, and don’t criticize other hunters who choose to hunt differently, be it over bait, behind a high fence, or with a weapon not of your preference. If you see something that is offensive or might give hunting a black eye…be a gentleman and speak up…to them. Send them a message and say it as close to their face as you can from a couch on the internet. Say hey, maybe clean the animal up before posting a photo, or not sit on top of it, or not show the high fence in the picture, or glorify some aspect that the general public might find offensive. And take pride in the fact we get to hunt and we get to choose, even if our choices don’t align with theirs, they have the freedom to choose and hunt differently as well.

 

[Fulvio]

Your inventory getting eaten is bad for business…

Releasing a specific animal from captivity just to be hunted isn’t really a hunt, in my opinion.

Has anyone ever booked a CBL hunt and gone home without killing one? It’s harvesting.

The usual rebuttal is that South African operations release antelope too and nobody complains about that. The difference is that on good operations those antelopes are part of self sustaining populations. They reproduce, create multiple generation on the land, and actually live and interact naturally.

The CBL system isn’t that in the slightest.

Some people just want to check a box it seems… conservation and a true wildlife experience be damned! A bucket list animal that they will kill by any means.

There is no conservation fullcircle moment in the CBL system. Theirs is no romance to it. It just feels wrong.

I guess to some that view point makes me a leftist anti hunter? Not reality but oh well.

Has anyone ever booked a CBL hunt and gone home without killing one? It’s harvesting.

No, its called shooting the house cat.

 

[mark-hunter]

Has anyone ever booked a CBL hunt and gone home without killing one? It’s harvesting.

No, its called shooting the house cat.

Questionable and misleading, because you can change the word from CBL to general plains game.

Uncertain hunts are:
Wild lion
Leopard
Buffalo sometimes
Rain forest hunts
Mountain nyala
Specific elephant hunts, 80, 90, 100 pounds
etc

Certain hunts: are as per above, general plains game on multiple species.
If you dont get zebra, you will get impala at worst case.

There are also affordable hunts, and non affordable hunts for majority of hunters.

This is fundamental part of equation in this perspective, a part often omitted in these discussions.

Non affordable for many, and not guaranteed equals strain to hunting ethics and this polarizing modern hunting community.

No lion at all, or CBL as comforting substitute?

 

[dchum]

Questionable and misleading, because you can change the word from CBL to general plains game.

Uncertain hunts are:
Wild lion
Leopard
Buffalo sometimes
Rain forest hunts
Mountain nyala
Specific elephant hunts, 80, 90, 100 pounds
etc

Certain hunts: are as per above, general plains game on multiple species.
If you dont get zebra, you will get impala at worst case.

There are also affordable hunts, and non affordable hunts for majority of hunters.

This is fundamental part of equation in this perspective, a part often omitted in these discussions.

Non affordable for many, and not guaranteed equals strain to hunting ethics and this polarizing modern hunting community.

No lion at all, or CBL as comforting substitute?

I’m just not really understating what your point is?

Also, Mountain Nyala hunts are almost 99% success rate. You can ask the Roussos.

Way higher success rate then trying to kill a 6+ year old lion in a Gov concession.


Still, non of that above is the point of the CBL issues. Yes on game farms in Limpopo people shoot a 5 animal package by day two.
That is also lame but using that to justify CBL?

I just don’t get the point

 

[Tanks]

...

No lion at all, or CBL as comforting substitute?

No lion at all for me if the only choice is CBL. Wine and dine a woman, interact, enjoy the chase or just go hire an escort, same difference in my view.