Cannelure on brass?

[Ace4059]

Hey folks,
I thought maybe someone would understand what I am trying to do since a lot of the cartridges used in Africa are straight walled and you understand dangerous game hunting and the redundancy with needing equipment that works when you life depends on it.
I am looking for either a crimp die, or a machine that can create a cannelure on the brass itself at the base of the bullet to add additional safety for bullet setback. I’m not looking for a crimp die that just crimps the brass into the bullet with a roll crimp or tapper crimp like traditional reloading. I would have thought there would be a hand cranked machine like a roll sizer to do this but I have yet to find one.
I am loading 405 gr hard cast 45-70 gov. The bullet has a crimp groove and I am applying a strong roll crimp but I want the additional safety of a cannelure on the brass like factory ammo.
This will be used for protection against grizzly and moose with a 1895 guide gun so I certainly would not want bullet setback if I ever have to use this rifle.
Anyone know of a way to do this hand loading or would this only be possible with factory loads?
Thanks
Ryan

 

[deewayne2003]

I know what you are trying to do, I've seen old .45acp ammo that had the crimp behind the bullet.

This tool is made for putting cannelures in conventional bullets, but I don't see why it couldn't be used to do what you want.

Cannelure Tool

Cannelure tool

chtoolanddie.com

 

[The Engineer]

Have you looked into the Lee crimping die? It is a collet type crimper that will actually create its own cannelure in a bullet which does not have a cannelure.

 

[Ace4059]

I know what you are trying to do, I've seen old .45acp ammo that had the crimp behind the bullet.

This tool is made for putting cannelures in conventional bullets, but I don't see why it couldn't be used to do what you want.

Cannelure Tool

Cannelure tool

chtoolanddie.com

The research I’ve done with the CH model is it lacks the force required to place a cannelure on brass.

There was a hand cannelure that was sold years ago and it was called the UCT (ultimate cannelure tool) that would work but it was discontinued when the owner moved across country. Only 200 of those machines were made.

And lastly the Corbin cannelure hand machine will only cannelure bullets and rimless brass. There machine will not cannelure rimmed brass.

Any other options out there that will work with 45-70?
Maybe I am over looking something, or haven’t found the correct tool yet.

 

[Ace4059]

Have you looked into the Lee crimping die? It is a collet type crimper that will actually create its own cannelure in a bullet which does not have a cannelure.

That crimps the very end of the brass into the bullet. Im trying to crimp the brass about a 1/3 of the way down.

 

[GuttormG]

A decent machinist or toolmaker should be able to make the tool (or modify the one linked to).
Why you feel this to necessary is my question?

 

[Ace4059]

I feel it’s necessary because factory hard cast ammo is loaded this way. It’s a redundant failsafe feature. It would be needed for range ammo but as something that will be used potentially as defense against dangerous animals, I want to avoid bullet setback.

If there is nothing “factory made” maybe the Corbin cannelure will suit my needs the best and I just have a machinist modify it.

 

[deewayne2003]

The research I’ve done with the CH model is it lacks the force required to place a cannelure on brass.

There was a hand cannelure that was sold years ago and it was called the UCT (ultimate cannelure tool) that would work but it was discontinued when the owner moved across country. Only 200 of those machines were made.

And lastly the Corbin cannelure hand machine will only cannelure bullets and rimless brass. There machine will not cannelure rimmed brass.

Any other options out there that will work with 45-70?
Maybe I am over looking something, or haven’t found the correct tool yet.

I would measure the width of the casing where you want the crimp to be, you could possibly find a Lee FCD that would work behind the bullet or order a 45-70 one and have a machinist open it up if needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were able use it as is, by simply adjusting the amount the die is screwed into the press and force used on the lever.

 

[JimP]

Just the heavy crimp on the bullet should be enough, even with shooting heavy hand loads.

You could always experiment a little to see if there is a problem by loading the magazine and just shooting a single shot leaving a majority of rounds inside the magazine. After doing this for several shots measure all the rounds left in the magazine to see if there was any jump or movement into the case.

Old timers would also rotate the rounds just encase there was some movement.

 

[DG870]

I had a problem with bullet setback when I switched from cast lead bullets to jacketed bullets in 45 ACP. I tried a heavy crimp and used Lee factory crimp dies and still could easily rotate the bullets in the case. I finally found a fix, Lee makes an undersized reloading die in 45 ACP. The case was sized smaller so when the bullet was seated the case showed a very slight bulge where the base of the bullet was seated. This is probably not as secure as a cannulure at that point but it has worked well in the pistol. I don’t know if anyone makes an undersized die for the 45-70 but you could probably have one made.

 

[mgstucson]

The Corbin hand cannelure tool will work, but will require some modification. The Ultimate Cannelure Tool is what you really need, but there are not many around and almost never one for sale. (I have 2 but neither are for sale.) The CH tool is not useful for this purpose, as others have stated.

Here is a Corbin Cannelure Tool. Can be purchased at Corbins.com.

I believe if you remove location adjustment screw A

Shift wheel B as far to the left as it will go. (There is a set screw on the wheel that allows you to slide the wheel back and forth along the shaft. There are set screws in bushings that allow you to remove the shaft and the wheel to replace it with other types of wheels.

And lay the 45-70 loaded round onto the 2 bottom rollers of the tool, with the nose of the bullet pushed all the way up against the hole in the frame where location adjustment screw A was before you removed it, and let the long end of the cartridge hang out of the frame in the notch made for the purpose at location C, I believe you will have enough adjustment in wheel B that you can get the wheel set below the place on the case where the bottom of the 405gr bullet will be.

Then simply roll the handle and cannelure the case.

If you cannot adjust the wheel far enough left to clear the bottom of the bullet inside the case, you can always take a drum sanding wheel on a Dremel tool and sand down the edge of the frame where screw A is, until that side of the frame has a notch in it that looks like the notch in the frame on the opposite side at location C. (I would remove the bottom rollers while sanding the notch into the right side of the frame at location A so that the rollers are not damaged while sanding the new notch into the frame. You will have sanded away the hole in the frame where the location adjustment screw A mounted, so no more location adjustment screw A. The result will be that you can freely slide the cartridge left and right along the rollers, allowing it to stick out beyond the frame to the left or right side, or stick out on both sides at once, so you can cannelure the case of the cartridge anywhere you want. You can always jerry rig a location adjustment stop on the tool and/or the work bench to use when duplicating cannelure locations on cases and/or bullets.

It may accomplish your purpose with simple adjustments on the tool, but it will certainly accomplish your purpose with permanent modification of the tool.


Hope this helps.

Just for information purposes, below is a picture of the Ultimate Cannleure Tool which is about twice as wide as the Corbin tool, has bottom roller replacements with grooves in the for rimmed cartridges, and has a lateral adjustment screw to move the wheel arm back and forth for precision duplication of cannleure placement. Now you know how this tool got its name. The bullet laying on the tool base is simply a visual for scale, it is a 750gr A-Max bullet for the 50bmg and is nearly as long as a 45-70 case.

 

[dlmac]

I have seen Valve stems and piston skirts knurled....don't see why a bullet could not be done, but I think it should be done on a lathe.