Bullet Performance Database

[Professor Mawla]

May I suggest if you can source them the following:

.458 500gr Safari Solid

20ct This .458 diameter 500 grain Safari Solid™ hunting bullet is designed for Bolt Action Rifles as well as double rifles. Design incorporates 3 + 1 band configuration for reduced barrel strain. It has the 67% Meplat BBW#13™ nose profile which has proven to give the deepest penetration of any...

cuttingedgebullets.com

The design of these bullets went thru a lot of effort by CEB and AH's own @michael458. The flat meplat and shoulder went thru many iterations until optimized for straight line and overall depth of penetration.

@PHOENIX PHIL
Let then then , trial some Cutting Edge Bullets as well .

 

[Professor Mawla]

@Professor Mawla
The Woodleigh hydrostatic stabilized projectiles will out penetrate any conventional lead core solid wether steel or copper jacket and do it in a straight line. When your life depends on penetration the woodleigh works.
Are they expensive yes but so is a funeral when thing go pear shaped.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
That is most sound advice . I was extremely fortunate that my Garo tracker had brought along that .303 British with him , from the armory of the forest department .

 

[CoElkHunter]

View attachment 375795View attachment 375796View attachment 375797View attachment 375798View attachment 375799
UPDATE , 14th November 2020 : Hornady 500 grain DGS ( Dangerous Game Solid ) meplat nose copper clad steel jacketed solids ( used in .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads ) are completely unsuited for frontal brain shots on rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls .

Gross deformation and bullet failure experienced at 30 yard range , on seven ton rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull . Animal had to be downed with borrowed .303 British ( standard forest department issue Lee Enfield ) and 215 grain meplat nosed nickel clad steel jacketed solids ( East Bengal Ordinance Factories production loading ) .

Suggestions for improvement : Bonding steel jacket to alloy core , increasing jacket thickness , enclosing bullet’s rear end with steel jacket .

Personal note : Extremely disappointed . Genuinely was under the impression that Hornady had improved the construction of all their bullets . Based on above experience , the Hornady DGS cannot be recommended for shoulder shots on Gaur bulls either .

Looks like that bullet hit a Land Rover instead of an elephant! Ha! Ha!

 

[Professor Mawla]

I’d sure like to hear that story sometime @Professor Mawla , you certainly lead an exciting life. I would try the CEB solids, in your 458 win mag. The 450 grain should be perfect.

@Wyatt Smith
Thank you very much . I shall provide a full report of the incident , next month . For now , this shall have to do .

 

[Professor Mawla]

Looks like that bullet hit a Land Rover instead of an elephant! Ha! Ha!

@CoElkHunter
Here you are . The actual Hornady DGS 500 grain meplat nosed copper clad steel jacketed solid bullet , which was recovered from the rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull .

Observe the way in which the alloy core has gotten squeezed out of the open bullet base . As well as the riveted shape .

 

[CoElkHunter]

@CoElkHunter
Here you are . The actual Hornady DGS 500 grain meplat nosed copper clad steel jacketed solid bullet , which was recovered from the rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull .
View attachment 375938
Observe the way in which the alloy core has gotten squeezed out of the open bullet base . As well as the riveted shape .

Very interesting! You would think bullet manufacturers would test their bullets more carefully before loading them in a DG caliber made to be used on elephant?

 

[Professor Mawla]

Very interesting! You would think bullet manufacturers would test their bullets more carefully before loading them in a DG caliber made to be used on elephant?

@CoElkHunter
It could simply be a quality control problem in this particular batch . I am most disappointed . In all of my previous writings , I have always ( and without exception ) recommended Hornady Dangerous Game Solids for use against rogue Asiatic jungle elephants and Gaur . Between 1958 to 1965 and 1980 to 1990 , Hornady used to manufacture an excellent round nosed steel jacketed 500 grain solid as a reloading component ( in .458 calibre ) . These were renowned for their extremely robust construction and thick steel jackets , as specially designed by Joyce Hornady himself . Often , a fired bullet remained flawlessly intact upon recovery and could easily be reloaded and used a second time . Barring the rifling marks , one would never have known that they had been fired .

The depressing thing is that this is not the first time , when Hornady bullets have failed against dangerous game .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Wyatt Smith
Thank you very much . I shall provide a full report of the incident , next month . For now , this shall have to do .
View attachment 375936

@Professor Mawla
A very unusual set of tusks being straight instead of curved.
Bob

 

[Shootist43]

Professor I'm glad that everything turned out ok. May I suggest that you contact Hornady about this problem. Perhaps seeing the actual bullet will help them do a better job (next time.) I don't recall ever seeing lead come out the back end of a bullet while the front looks "more or less" undamaged.

 

[CoElkHunter]

@Professor Mawla
A very unusual set of tusks being straight instead of curved.
Bob

Maybe that’s why the elephant went “rogue”? The other elephants teased him until he lost his mind! Ha! Ha!

 

[michael458]

From the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance #3............................

#3 Construction & Material


Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

 

[BeeMaa]

Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

You said "our" solids in your post.
Do you work for Hornady or another bullet company?

 

[michael458]

You said "our" solids in your post.
Do you work for Hornady or another bullet company?

Do I work For Hornady? Would I post “Failures” of Hornady bullets if I worked for Hornady? Do I work for another bullet company? I don’t work for or own any part of any other bullet company, nor do I own stock in any bullet company. I am a hunter/shooter end of story.

The “Our” refers to you, me, and everyone else that has use of solids..... simple as that, it could have maybe should have said. “The solids available to US today”, but then along those lines, who is “US”...... same thing........

Do I have preferences and prejudices? Absolutely, I was part of the design team that gave you the Cutting Edge Solids, fact is, they were designed on my personal 50 yard test range, and they were tweaked and designed to do a particular job, drive deep and drive dead straight. Along the way is where we learned about the 8 Factors Of Solid Penetration and how these factors effect the stability of a solid as it penetrates. I also had some input on various North Fork bullets as well. No, I don’t own either, and have no stock or monetary interests at all, the work was done because I wanted to have a better bullet for my hunting, and increase the success I would have in the field...... Again, end of story......

 

[BeeMaa]

Do I work For Hornady? Would I post “Failures” of Hornady bullets if I worked for Hornady? Do I work for another bullet company? I don’t work for or own any part of any other bullet company, nor do I own stock in any bullet company. I am a hunter/shooter end of story.

The “Our” refers to you, me, and everyone else that has use of solids..... simple as that, it could have maybe should have said. “The solids available to US today”, but then along those lines, who is “US”...... same thing........

Do I have preferences and prejudices? Absolutely, I was part of the design team that gave you the Cutting Edge Solids, fact is, they were designed on my personal 50 yard test range, and they were tweaked and designed to do a particular job, drive deep and drive dead straight. Along the way is where we learned about the 8 Factors Of Solid Penetration and how these factors effect the stability of a solid as it penetrates. I also had some input on various North Fork bullets as well. No, I don’t own either, and have no stock or monetary interests at all, the work was done because I wanted to have a better bullet for my hunting, and increase the success I would have in the field...... Again, end of story......

Take breath for a minute and read your post again.
It can be taken a few different ways.
That's why I asked.
It was a question...not an accusation.

And in the sam light...I re-read my post.
I see how it may have been seen as an attack on you.
Apologies, however it was not my intent.

 

[michael458]

Take breath for a minute and read your post again.
It can be taken a few different ways.
That's why I asked.
It was a question...not an accusation.

And in the sam light...I re-read my post.
I see how it may have been seen as an attack on you.
Apologies, however it was not my intent.

@BeeMaa .......Apology very appreciated. And yes, I might be a bit sensitive on that matter because of the battles I fought for YEARS concerning Solid Bullet Technology, and being literally accused of this very same thing, along with 100s of other things. Thank you.

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa .......Apology very appreciated. And yes, I might be a bit sensitive on that matter because of the battles I fought for YEARS concerning Solid Bullet Technology, and being literally accused of this very same thing, along with 100s of other things. Thank you.

Cheers.

 

[machinistbutler]

I can't wait until you post the story! I really enjoy reading them . Did you just fire your 458 Winchester Magnum once at the Rouge elephant? I am just wondering why you would switch rifles during such a stressful situation?

It gets a bit hectic when my 85 pound black lab gets a case of the Zoomies, tucks his tail between his legs and runs full speed around my back yard. I get nervous he will hit me and break one of my legs . I can't imagine a mad elephant!

@colorado
I know that you mean . If my Garo tracker did not hand me the .303 British in time , then that rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull would have managed to reach me ; day before yesterday .

 

[Professor Mawla]

I can't wait until you post the story! I really enjoy reading them . Did you just fire your 458 Winchester Magnum once at the Rouge elephant? I am just wondering why you would switch rifles during such a stressful situation?

It gets a bit hectic when my 85 pound black lab gets a case of the Zoomies, tucks his tail between his legs and runs full speed around my back yard. I get nervous he will hit me and break one of my legs . I can't imagine a mad elephant!

@machinistbutler
Thank you very much . I fired at him three times , with my .458 Winchester Magnum . My tracker always carries a forest department issued .303 British , whenever he is accompanying me on Problem Animal Control work . I snatched the .303 British from him , when I had expended all the rounds in the magazine of my .458 Winchester Magnum . That .303 British ended up preventing my potential demise .

 

[machinistbutler]

@machinistbutler
Thank you very much . I fired at him three times , with my .458 Winchester Magnum . My tracker always carries a forest department issued .303 British , whenever he is accompanying me on Problem Animal Control work . I snatched the .303 British from him , when I had expended all the rounds in the magazine of my .458 Winchester Magnum . That .303 British ended up preventing my potential demise .

Does your 458 hold just the three rounds. People always say you shouldn't need more than one or two . My CZ 458 Lott holds 6. Maybe there is something to the greater magazine capacity at times like that!

Was that a picture of the elephant that you had to shoot? It looks huge! Does the forest department make use of the tusks off it and the meat? I don't know much at all about elephants but those looks quite big!!


I am glad you weren't hurt, and it is too bad the ammunition didn't perform up to expectations. Hopefully the monometal solids will not deform and change direction like the Hornady did.


Thanks!

Craig

 

[Professor Mawla]

Does your 458 hold just the three rounds. People always say you shouldn't need more than one or two . My CZ 458 Lott holds 6. Maybe there is something to the greater magazine capacity at times like that!

Was that a picture of the elephant that you had to shoot? It looks huge! Does the forest department make use of the tusks off it and the meat? I don't know much at all about elephants but those looks quite big!!


I am glad you weren't hurt, and it is too bad the ammunition didn't perform up to expectations. Hopefully the monometal solids will not deform and change direction like the Hornady did.


Thanks!

Craig

@machinistbutler
Yes , you are correct . My .458 Winchester Magnum is custom built on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action and the magazine holds three rounds . The rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull in the photograph , is the one which nearly succeeded in trampling me to death .

The meat from dispatched rogue Asiatic jungle elephants , is always invariably donated to the Upojati ( tribal ) trackers who are under the employment of the Maulvi Bazaar forest department . I have been permitted to retain the rogue’s tusks and I shall relate the entire incident in detail , sometime after Christmas and before New Year’s Eve .

Until then , perhaps you may enjoy a chapter from my book which I have related on AH forums already . It features an incident from 1977 , when I was forced to contend with another rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull .

Hunting A Rogue Asiatic Elephant

Today , I will write about an incident where I was fortunate enough to shoot a rogue Asiatic elephant in 1977 . This incident features in chapter eight of my book and I personally consider it to have been one of the most exciting highlights in my dangerous game hunting career . During my youth...

www.africahunting.com