Brno ZKK602 .416 rigby stock questions

Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
I have a couple of questions you may help me with. I have searched the forum but did find the answers I was looking for. I got the opportunity to buy a ZKK 602 in .416 rigby. The action is marked 68 and it has the pop up peep sights and 25 inch barrel. If I shorten the barrel to 22 inch will the sling attachment be too high? And will it affect the balance of the gun?

And does anybody have any experience with this stock? I have not seen it before on a ZKK 602. I will use the rifle for DG hunting and like the shorter barrel.

IMG_3204.JPG
 

mark-hunter

AH elite
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
1,893
Reaction score
2,397
Media
23
Articles
2
Hunted
Namibia - Kalahari, Namibia - Khomas highland
I have the same stock, it is ZKK 602 - lux model, (375 H&H) the other one is standard.
Mine is vintage 1985. see photo below.
See also attached older ZKK catalogue, (although for zkk 600 and 602, but it depicts two standard factry stocks)
With this type of stock, for me, it is pleasent to shoot, but it is 375 not 416 as yours. Even weatherby is fitting montecarlo stocks on his rifles (strooong recoiiilll), so in theory should be ok, provided that you have at least an average body build.

Regarding the sling swivel on the barrel, it depends on how do you shoot.
I think it will not affect the balance of the rifle, under condition that you do not use sling around forearm for shooting.
Barrel sling swivel looks like being fitted on older models, and discontinued on newer models??
Newer model drawing attached, and older model brochure attached.


Mind, there are some rifles with very short barrel, that have the sling swivel on the muzzle. (that I even like, but never tried shooting them with sling around forearm)

For example, attached short barreled mauser m03 trail, with sling swivel on muzzle.

ZKK600-Brochure.jpg
ZKK-602-Brochure.jpg
mauser m12.jpg
karabin-zkk-602-.jpg
Bruenner_zkk602.jpg
BD54480C-C931-4299-9C87-501178903DB9.jpeg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

USMA84DAB

Bronze supporter
AH enthusiast
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
380
Reaction score
592
Location
Kansas City, MO area
Media
47
Articles
1
Hunting reports
USA/Canada
1
Member of
NRA Life Member
Hunted
MO, CO, SD
WRT the sling - I have seen many clips of people actively pursuing game - the sling has been taken off of the rifle so it doesn't snag on brush/get in the way/confuse anything. Seems many use it JUST for carry administratively. YMMV.

Mark - thanks for posting the pics!
 

mark-hunter

AH elite
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
1,893
Reaction score
2,397
Media
23
Articles
2
Hunted
Namibia - Kalahari, Namibia - Khomas highland
@USMA84DAB
You are welcome!
(had the pictures available, because I've been researching ZKK line of rifles for some time by know, before purchasing one, so it was not an issue)
 

Luvthunt

AH enthusiast
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Messages
382
Reaction score
271
Media
2
Rick80
Should you decide not to buy pls send me a pm I may have interest.
Many Thanks
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
My experience.. Ive owned 602s and carried a CZ550 (better safety) in 416Rigby for many many years, (and Rigbys in DSB and SSB). I suggest keep the barrel at 25" or if you must no shorter than 24".
If you fire 5 shots before you buy it, you will find recoil of a 416 Rigby is sharp and nasty, and muzzle blast from a fat case make more than most noise and blast that will damage your ear drums. Further away is better for your ears. Before the world had soft foam ear plugs etc etc, the experienced big game hunters "ordered" 25 and 26 inch barrels on bolt rifles, and 26 or 28 barrels on doubles... and the reason is muzzle blast kept further away from ones ears.. especially the left one for most. I sold a 456H&H double with 24" barrels as my hearing suffered, and I wanted back to my 24 or 25" bolt actions.
For some reason some people chop off barrels.... a fad.. so as to climb through jungle... which you can do with anything anyway. But only one thing WILL happen, more blast and noise. My hearing as a guide has slowly suffered, until one of my guides kicked me into wearing the $10 Sonic plugs, which get put in just before the stalk to shoot. Occasionally me or hunter dont get plugs in, and ringing damaged ears is just stupid permanent damage... ( upon damage)..!!
Anyway I love the 416 for its awesome penetration of dangerous game and whilst hunting recoil is sometimes not so noticeable. But practice and sighting is a yucky task.
If you plan to shoot Buffalo and Elephant, a good choice.
The 416RM (with a normal load), 400H&H, and 404 Jeffery will all be more comfortable to shoot, and thus makers make these a bit lighter to carry. 9lb to 9.5lb total is great for a PH.
The 416Rigby however should be over 10lb and I like 10.5lb loaded carry weight for that cartridge.
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
24 years ago I had a 602 with Lux stock in 458WM rechambered to a 458Lott.. stock was reasonably ok for a big kicker, at the time I always used a scope, and had a 1-4 Leopold mounted way forward. However I'm a relaxed type of shooter and about ever 4th shot the scope would whack me and blood everywhere.
Sold that kicker for a CZ550 in (what I thought would be) a "milder" newly released 416 rigby cliber with safari/tropical (no cheekpiece) classic stock.That stock looked nice but was awful with open sights, and super awful with no cheek support at all for scoped use.. and the 416 Rigby recoil was faster and sharper.. ooch... Only good thing was scope didn't quite reach cutting my brow/head... and penetration of bullets was further into Buffalo..
So after finding a mild (recoil) powder, a 2350fps loads, and a nice custom stock with coarse checkered, soft recoil pad etc, all was solved.
 

Neale

AH enthusiast
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Messages
497
Reaction score
542
Location
Cape York, Queensland Australia
Media
102
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Member of
SSAA
Hunted
Australia, South Africa ( Eastern Cape, Free State, Limpopo,KwaZulu Natal )
Some good information @expresshunt. I am thinking of getting a 404J barrel on my brno 602 and having it at 22". What do you think would be best barrel length?
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
Our slings go on all rifles in May, go hunting Buffalo non stop, and slings come off in November.. for storage. (salt from sweat accumulates in them).
Carrying rifles loaded and balanced on shoulders pointed at others is not permitted. So slings stay on, and a comfortable carry all week. Plus 2 hands free for climbing up or down occasional steep hills or river banks many times each day.

If your African hunting Elephant or Buffalo etc in thick stuff and thorns, then yes take the sling off at the time.
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
Some good information @expresshunt. I am thinking of getting a 404J barrel on my brno 602 and having it at 22". What do you think would be best barrel length?
24" is the best answer. But on a custom 602, 550 or magnum action I would go 23 not including thread... which is about 23.5 overall.
 

Nhoro

AH enthusiast
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
390
Reaction score
491
Media
26
I would suggest that you try the rifle before you cut the barrel shorter. I have a CZ in 458 Lott. People suggested I get a bigger front bead (which I did) for quick target acquisition. They also suggested moving the sling swivel and shortening the barrel. I researched and bent my brain thinking about it. The main reason for shortening the barrel is the feel or balance of the rifle and the theory that it snags less when walking. When walking through thick bush, I prefer to hold the rifle in my hands anyway.

I guide walks with school kids and that sort of stuff, not hunting, so I have open sights and my rifle was too light to start with (9.25 lbs). The balance was also barrel heavy. So I put some lead in the butt and now is is about 9.75 lbs. Balance moved back and the rifle feels better.You can always stick some weight on the back using some tape and see how it feels. Recoil is much better-it used to be a Win Mag and felt recoil is better now with Lott ammo.

So, IMHO, the main reason for cutting the barrel is the look (fashion ?) and to keep the rifle light. The main reason that people shoot poorly is recoil and muzzle blast. PH's rifles are generally open sights and therefore probably muzzle heavy from the factory. They are also carried for months in the year and very seldom fired in anger. So the fashion is to trim the barrel and put up with more noise. The better balance also helps with felt recoil. I went another direction with more weight, specifically at the back to sort out balance and improve recoil.
 

mark-hunter

AH elite
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
1,893
Reaction score
2,397
Media
23
Articles
2
Hunted
Namibia - Kalahari, Namibia - Khomas highland
If putting weight to the stock, and moving center of gravity to the back, than it can as well to be considered putting mercury recoil reducers to the stock
 

Nhoro

AH enthusiast
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
390
Reaction score
491
Media
26
If putting weight to the stock, and moving center of gravity to the back, than it can as well to be considered putting mercury recoil reducers to the stock
Yes, a mercury reducer would add weight. But as a former physics teacher, I cannot see any scientific reason that a mercury reducer is anything more than a weight in the stock-equivalent to and far more expensive than a lead weight. In fact physics would suggest that a lead weight is superior because it acts directlt with no delay. Mercury will first slop to the front of the container and then begin working but that is a topic for another thread !
 

mark-hunter

AH elite
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
1,893
Reaction score
2,397
Media
23
Articles
2
Hunted
Namibia - Kalahari, Namibia - Khomas highland
@Nhoro
My understanding is, slow moving inert liquid (mercury), is delaying recoil impulse, from quick and sharp to gentle push, plus effect of added weight.

Regarding recoil calculation and mathematical values, I have never seen recoil calculation based on type of rifle: semiautomatics will have less recoil then bolt action.
Then, we all know that muzzle brakes work, in reducing recoil - but I have seen no calculation, or table making difference between same weight - same caliber rifle - using same bullet, in three options: bolt action, semi auto or bolt action, muzzle braked.
Some things are just not calculated. (To my understanding, ballistics is still full of mathematical mystery, with external ballistic having most of advancements of other two )
 

Nhoro

AH enthusiast
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
390
Reaction score
491
Media
26
@Nhoro
My understanding is, slow moving inert liquid (mercury), is delaying recoil impulse, from quick and sharp to gentle push, plus effect of added weight.

Regarding recoil calculation and mathematical values, I have never seen recoil calculation based on type of rifle: semiautomatics will have less recoil then bolt action.
Then, we all know that muzzle brakes work, in reducing recoil - but I have seen no calculation, or table making difference between same weight - same caliber rifle - using same bullet, in three options: bolt action, semi auto or bolt action, muzzle braked.
Some things are just not calculated. (To my understanding, ballistics is still full of mathematical mystery, with external ballistic having most of advancements of other two )
My point is that a solid weight will do the same thing and from the instant the trigger is pulled. Mercury will remain stationary until the rifle recoils and the mercury hits the front of its chamber. Then it will work like a solid lead weight to reduce the recoil. Basically, lead weight is cheaper and more effective.

Anyway, I think balance has a lot to do with felt recoil. A rifle that jumps up into your face will feel worse than one that recoils straight back. Large drop at heel will jump up more as well. I think tat is why Rigby and H&H will fit the rifle to you-so it feels good.
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
@Nhoro
My understanding is, slow moving inert liquid (mercury), is delaying recoil impulse, from quick and sharp to gentle push, plus effect of added weight.

Regarding recoil calculation and mathematical values, I have never seen recoil calculation based on type of rifle: semiautomatics will have less recoil then bolt action.
Then, we all know that muzzle brakes work, in reducing recoil - but I have seen no calculation, or table making difference between same weight - same caliber rifle - using same bullet, in three options: bolt action, semi auto or bolt action, muzzle braked.
Some things are just not calculated. (To my understanding, ballistics is still full of mathematical mystery, with external ballistic having most of advancements of other
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
Back to the 416 Rigby, JMO, I will try stay on this caliber;

I doubt anyone would ever buy a secondhand 416 Rigby with a 22inch barrel.
Why... because it should have a 24 or 25" barrel for the combustion of the cartridge..
Of course you can do what ever you like. 99.9% of gunsmiths aren't PHs, and don't do DG hunts every year, some will sell anything for an income, even muzzle brakes on DG rifles.. OMG..

If the 416 Rigby rifle is too heavy out front for someone, don't buy the rifle.
Its not the rifles fault, its that the hunter needs to practice, get stronger arms and practice some more.
Expensive long established DG rifle makers, make sure barrels are profiled to not be heavy out the front.

A 5" OAL shorter 10lb double rifle, feels lighter than a 10lb 416 Rigby... funny that, and yes its easier to carry in thick bush. But I personally want my rifles muzzle blast to be far from my ear hole for 5 months in the field. For someone doing one or two DG hunts a year, they can use whatever they like, and pop ear plugs in before the shot.

If you want to hunt dangerous game or anything in the field with a 22" barreled 416 Rigby, (or anything muzzle braked for that matter) you will need ear muffs or ear plugs, or you will have nasty muzzle blast and permanent ear damage. Fact.
A correct barrel length for caliber will have a manageable muzzle blast for limited hunt activity ie a few shots.

Re electronic muffs - over the years we have had people arrive with electronic muffs, and put them on and start walking around, by the afternoon its annoying them and hot and sweaty around their neck. By day 2 its still annoying them, and either swinging off the rifle somewhere, or now in the day-pack (doesn't get used). Day 3 is left in camp.

The only time I ever saw a hunter wear the muffs of his head like mickey mouse for 7 full hunt days, was a film hunter, and he had to for one of his sponsors. I declined my allocated pair.

A factory CZ 416 Rigby is a tiny bit light for caliber, but a DG PH carrying all day open sights will be very happy under 10lb, as he rarely ever shoots it. But the same rifle for a slim Jim hunter, or person who wants to practice lots, or a Big Game Rifle event shooter, then yes I think a recoil reducer in the stock is a good idea, and or adding a scope and mounts adds weight to make the rifle a bit more comfortable to shoot.

As Nhoro said, (if in doubt), shoot the rifle first.... if it boots the hell out of you, cutting the barrel shorter will just make more recoil, more muzzle jump and more muzzle blast noise.

I can shoot a 375H&H lots and enjoy it, but a 416 Rigby I do not enjoy practicing with, but I love the 416 Rigby ballistics, penetration and effect for back up on an escaping or charging Buffalo.

So a 22" 416 Rigby hunter needs ear muffs or ear plugs at every shot, or WILL permanently damage hearing.
A 24" barrelled 416 Rigby hunter with no ear protection in the open, its not so bad... but after +30 years of 3006, 375, 416, 458 etc, I have some hearing loss, and must not lose more, now I use the $10 Sonic ear plugs if I remember, small and fast to put in. (I dont like the molded ear ones, and have never seen any DG hunters use them for a whole week).

You can get bigger interchangeable front sight beads for CZ and 602 rifles, a very good system. Come in bronze, white, red and silver... I have spares of these in white at different heights as they are great.

Now changing topic to a 458WM, this cartridge and combustion is fine at 22". (but 20" or 18" would bring on that muzzle blast noise again).

Many old time PHs or experienced hunters if they arrived at a camp, and had 6 rifles to pick from, 99% would chose the longer barrel ones, for that reason... and never a brake.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Thank you for very good advice on the barrel length. Solid info that I have not taken into consideration. I was able to test shoot it today. I had both earplugs and earmuffs. It have a sharp kick but it's doable and it shoots good. It will be a very good rifle for the price.

Thank you for advice on the interchangeable front sight beads. Will switch that when I get it.
 

expresshunt

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
83
Reaction score
151
Location
Australia
Media
14
Member of
IPHA, SCI, SSAA, DCS, ADA, SWH&C, MSL.
Hunted
Australia, RSA, Belgium, Hungary, NZ, Nam/Caprivi, Moz, Kyrgyzstan, France, USA, Spain.
No worries. Great caliber, nice fat case. I once dropped a fast departing (375) wounded Buffalo on the run through brush at 250 yards, with a rear raking shot. It crashed and skidded to a halt in a cloud of dust. I assumed spine was taken out in the middle between front shoulders.. we caped it out, and got back after dark. Next day the camp assistant was to clean the flesh off the head. He discovered a 416 Rigby Woodleigh fmj solid in the front of the brain, so about 8' of penetration..!! Obviously no serious bones on the way. But after seeing that I was satisfied with my mild ~2340fps reloads.. I didnt need faster..
Also the 404 or 416 RM, or 400H&H all have to be fantastic carry weight and effective rifles for Buffalo. First shot must be perfect and do the job.... but if not.. then 2nd and 3rd shots might be raking from the side or rear, and thats when the 400 caliber is one of the best for penetration.
 

Professor Mawla

AH fanatic
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
773
Reaction score
2,216
Media
58
Articles
13
I have seen the same kind of stock on the BRNO ZKK-600 ( a 9.3x62 mm Mauser ) , which I had used to hunt one of my three Markhor goats . That stock is not uncomfortable , at all . At least , I certainly did not find it to be so . I agree with @Nhoro and I strongly advise against shortening that magnificent Poldi steel barrel . The Douglas Premium barrel of my own custom .458 Winchester Magnum is also 25 inches long , and I do not find it to be even remotely unwieldy ( even in the densest parts of the Sundarban mangrove forests ) .

In case anyone else might be interested , here are two more scans of BRNO ZKK series rifle catalogs .
04819835-1562-446E-8E48-89C8851A74C6.jpeg
63439F7B-3B7B-49E3-A32C-E38A3E1D4322.jpeg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
37,290
Messages
710,727
Members
66,396
Latest member
CamillaMar
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

cal pappas wrote on Mnelson2's profile.
Nelson. Is this message a PM format. I want to send you my email, but don't know if this is the cirrect way to do it. I'm at <pappas@mtaonline.net> Send me an email with your phone and I will call you about a skull I have. I went to school in Boston and am from Bernardston in the west part of the state. Moved to Alaska in 1984 adn never looked back.
BeeMaa wrote on Justbryan's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. He was a pleasure to do business with.
BeeMaa wrote on 375Fox's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. Was a pleasure to do business with.
Tundra Tiger wrote on Alaska Luke's profile.
Hi Luke. Just saw your message. I am in Dillingham, and have been since 2002. I took an elementary teaching gig here, taught here five years, and then got a job with Togiak National Wildlife Refuge as their education and outreach specialist. Recently I just got a promotion and now I'm the Visitor Services Manager. Prior to DLG I spent 6 years teaching for Lake and Pen in Nondalton.
Serbian Hunter wrote on Tundra Tiger's profile.
Hi TT
I am glad you found some useful info in my posts. Hard cast WFN with GC will do the job fine. I trust Veral Smith (owner of LBT company) - I believe that he can provide you with some finest HC bullets. Many companies are coping his design. I can help you from here in developing max loads (40.000psi) just let me know which powder you are using (I use Quick Load software which turns to be very reliable).
 
Top