best bolt action for dangerous games

[SAFARIKIDD]

There is a nice 505 in the classifieds for sale now and Jason also has some other big bores for sale..458Lott and up..All good ones to consider !

 

[Doug Hamilton]

By doing so, and doing it continuously with same actual box of ammo, have you guys ever experienced, that bullet was jammed in chamber, and when extracting the powder was spilled all over the action, and magazine?

Never, but then I can't imagine loading a dangerous game round without making sure that the bullet was set back off of the lands and well crimped. They have to work well while feeding and extracting every time. Even if you have to shoot the last round in the magazine of a hard kicking rifle (.458 WM or larger) those bullets should not move within the case. That's part of the testing process while developing a load.
I have heard of it happening with .458 WM factory loads though and Capstick wrote something about bullets being pushed hack by slamming into the front of the magazine during an elephant culling operation. Again, if that was true, it would be the result of poor crimping in factory ammunition.

 

[colorado]

I have seen that in my 500 Jeffery. I bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die and it has solved that issue

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have seen that in my 500 Jeffery. I bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die and it has solved that issue

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is also what I use wit my .458 and I also have one for my .44 mag revolver loads. They work well to keep your bullets from moving in the case.

 

[Sjakon]

Mauser M98 in .416 Rigby. Shot Lion, Cape Buffalo, Kudu, Lechwe, Springbok, Impala in the Kalahari last month.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Mauser M98 in .416 Rigby. Shot Lion, Cape Buffalo, Kudu, Lechwe, Springbok, Impala in the Kalahari last month.

That sounds like a great rifle in a perfect caliber. I've taken two buffalo in Zimbabwe, but I've never seen a lion, not even in Chobe National Park. Probably couldn't manage the high cost of a lion, but I'd love to hunt one. Now you're making me jealous!
Congratulations!

Doug

 

[Sjakon]

Thank you Doug

 

[flying sailor]

Read some Remington history.
I have owned a lot of Rem 700's over the years and have never had one fail to extract a case.

My dad accidentally tried to blow one up once, overcharge of wrong powder was likely. He had to beat the bolt open, but could not get the bolt to retract, so gave it to a smith.
Smith got the bolt out, and guess what was still hanging on to the case rim?
What was left of the case, still there. Extractor held firm at a gross overcharge.
Rifle was put back into service as well.

I was happy to pick up a ZKK 602 a few years ago before anyone saw the need. English stock, and the box holds 6 rounds! Holy Cow. Had Wayne at AHR do a stage one and some cross bolts for me, Actually bought two at the same time, almost consecutive numbers, both worked up and gave one to my son. Mine came with Kahles 2.2-9x42 with German reticle. paid 2400 for both, maybe 5 years ago. Going to use it next year.

 

[flying sailor]

Anybody know of problems with the stocks on Ruger M77 in .458 WM? '70's production, just has one cross bolt. Bought another safe Queen last summer.

 

[BeeMaa]

Anybody know of problems with the stocks on Ruger M77 in .458 WM? '70's production, just has one cross bolt. Bought another safe Queen last summer.

I know some of the Ruger M77 tang safety (production years from aprox 1968-1984) had problems cracking the stock behind the safety. If you are looking to upgrade it, Bell & Carlson make an upgrade. With a bedding job and some minor fitting, you should be good to go. BTW - Bell & Carlson is who CZ was using for their safari caliber stocks, so the strength is there.

Here's an article on the Ruger M77's...
https://www.riflemagazine.com/original-ruger-m77

 

[Warren Knudsen]

1972 zkk602 in 416 Rigby, shot Buffalo a beuty Nyala and warthog in Mozambique August 22, and a mate took a great waterbuck with the rifle also. The load was Norma 400g swift aframe. Worked perfectly.

 

[One Day...]

"And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth."
(Lord Of The Rings opening monologue).


The Mauser external claw extractor myth...

I am on record for observing that the reason the characteristic Mauser big external claw extractor was perfected in the 1890’s by Paul Mauser, at the request of the German Imperial Army, was to prevent extraction failure of the soft pure copper shells loaded with black powder, that were notorious for sticking in dirty chambers after sustained fire.

I reckon that brass shells loaded with smokeless, clean burning powder resolved this issue a long time ago.

The Mauser external claw extractor myth is that it provides (pick your adjective) better/stronger/more reliable extraction.

This WAS true when a big extractor had more bearing surface on a soft copper shell easily stuck in a chamber, not be pressure, but by black powder residues.

This is essentially irrelevant with a modern brass case loaded with clean burning powder stuck in a chamber by overpressure. If a case gets stuck in the chamber nowadays following an overpressure event, Mauser claw extractor or not, the action itself is stuck shut, short of a rubber mallet.

The Mauser CRF myth...

I am on record also for observing that the reason the Mauser CRF was perfected was to prevent 1890’s peasant conscripts who had never handled a bolt action rifle before, to:

1- jam the rifle by double feeding, i.e. trying to load a cartridge in the chamber after leaving one in it unintentionally for whatever reason, from combat fever to mishandling;​

2- risk detonating the cartridge in the chamber with the tip of the spitzer bullet of a second cartridge being rammed into it;​

​

3- load the rifle inadvertently (and likely cause an accidental/negligent discharge) by pushing a cartridge in the chamber and leaving it there.​

THIS was the primary purpose of CRF: carrying a cartridge into the chamber, as opposed to pushing it there, which means that the bolt carries the cartridge back out of the chamber, even if the bolt has not been closed on the cartridge, making it impossible to leave unintentionally a cartridge in the chamber.

The Mauser CRF & external claw extractor "thing that should not have been forgotten but that was lost"...

Of course, beveling the Mauser extractor to allow the extractor to jump the rim and close over a cartridge inserted directly into the chamber entirely defeats the two purposes of the Mauser system:

1- infallible extraction: evidently, if the extractor can jump the rim on the way in, it can also jump the rim on the way out......................​

​

2- impossibility to double feed or leave a cartridge in the chamber unwittingly: evidently, if the extractor can jump the rim of a cartridge in the chamber, the action can be closed on a cartridge unknowingly pushed in the chamber, and/or double feed on top of it.​

Beveling the Mauser extractor converts a true functional Mauser system into a decorative Mauser-look-alike system.

Admittedly, since the true rationale for the Mauser system is likely obsolete with experienced riflemen hunters shooting reasonable pressure modern ammo with strong brass case in reasonably clean rifles, decoration can take over function.

This was probably (?) Bill Ruger's reasoning when he put out the original 77's from 1968-1991. The rifles had a big external "Mauser-look-alike" extractor but they were not Mauser-system in as much as they did not have CRF and the extractor snapped over the cartridge head just as any push feed extractor.

If you doubt what I am saying, just take a look at these original 77's bolt head: they have a plunger ejector, which, to the ones in the know, instantly affirm that they CANNOT carry a cartridge in or out.

By the way, the same "Mauser-look-alike" pretend approach applied to the safety: it looks like a Mauser bolt-mounted, firing-pin-blocking, safety, but it is not. It is a receiver-mounted, sear-blocking safety. To the best of my knowledge, to this day it is still the case.

Does it all matter?

Well, to each their own!

I personally continue to appreciate the fact that in a true Mauser CRF rifle it is impossible to close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber - and I only wish that no CRF extractor would be beveled to allow it to jump the rim of a cartridge already pushed into the chamber, as some manufacturers do. This would make it impossible to load a CRF rifle inadvertently, and to fire it accidentally.

As to quickly slipping a cartridge directly into the chamber - assumedly in a rush, after having emptied the magazine - I shall argue that it is faster and easier to click a cartridge down in the magazine, than it is to line up one with the barrel bore without bumping into the barrel shoulder...

As to the Mauser system making a rifle feed better and extract better, I doubt that it has any reality with experienced riflemen using modern brass cased ammo.

Actually, I shall make the point that many Mauser-system rifles that were chambered for cartridges other than the one for which 1) the magazine width; 2) the feeding rails geometry; 3) the feeding ramp angle; 4) the extractor timing were designed, are LESS reliable than most push feed rifles.

If you doubt what I am saying, just take a look at the endless threads lamenting feeding issues with CRF actions designed for the long, bottlenecked .375 H&H, and jamming with short (e.g. .458 Win) and/or straight walled (e.g. .458 Lott), and/or fat (e.g. .500 Jeffery) cartridges, because they were just barreled in another caliber, including at the factory, without the action being modified with different rails geometry, extractor timing, etc. etc.

In conclusion from a purely functional perspective...

Yes, like everyone else, I have long been under the spell of the mythical Mauser 98, but, in truth, from a purely functional perspective, the vaunted claw extractor is - most of the time - neutered by beveling (oh crime of ignorance!); the CRF feeding timing is - on most factory rifles in anything else than .375 based cartridges - questionable at best; and an accidental overpressure - in factory or, dare I say?, more commonly in reloaded ammo, will lock any action shut regardless of extractor system.

Again, if you doubt me, ask Buzz Charlton, whose trusted, mega Mauser extractor, Ruger M77 Mk II Express .416 Rigby was locked shut by a client's overpressure handload while he was attempting to back a client on Elephant. He even shows it in one of his videos...

In conclusion from an emotional perspective...

Yes, like everyone else, I have long been under the spell of Denys Finch Hatton, and I too have long dreamed of having a farm in Africa, and there is no escaping that the ONLY way to hunt Africa "proper" is to pair a British double and a German Mauser...

So where does it leave "the best bolt action for dangerous game"?

Simple! There is no such thing as "the best bolt action for dangerous game"...

There is no such thing as an out-of-the-box, hunt-ready, DG rifle. ANY rifle from ANY maker will likely need some tune up. I once received a brand new Win 70 Classic, from New Haven, on which the safety could not engage. So much for the out-of-the-box-ready Winchester 70 myth! And do not get me started on CZ, or even ZKK, which I revere as great low-cost DG rifles, but that virtually all need some tune up before reaching their true potential.

There is no such thing as a universally fitting rifle. If you ever intend to use a DG rifle in a defensive situation, it needs to come to your shoulder, sights aligned, like a well fitting shotgun. Stock length, shape, cast, drop, etc. on any given rifle, may, or may not fit you well, and there are major differences between a CZ stock; a Winchester stock; a Sako stock; a stock designed for scope shooting; a stock designed for iron sights shooting; a British pattern stock; a Continental pattern stock; an American pattern stock; etc. etc.

Practice is 95% of the game. We all remember the old say going something like "beware of the one-rifle man, he likely knows how to use it". How many times per year (never mind month) are DG rifles in stopper caliber (historically .45+, but .40+ will do for the sake of this discussion) shot outside of Africa? With full loads might I add...

I will take a well debugged, well fitting, well practiced push feed anything (Remington, Sako, Tikka, non CRF Win 70, Savage, original Ruger 77, etc.) over a poorly fitting, rarely fired at the range, never shot under field conditions, CRF anything (Mark X, ZKK 602, CZ 550, Winchester 70, Ruger 77 Mk II, Zastava, Santa Barbara, etc.), including some pretty expensive "custom" rifles. And I will not even trust high end offerings such as modern Mauser M98, Heym, Rigby, etc. without shooting a hundred rounds, in any imaginable scenario (single loading, full mag loading, slow cycling, rapid cycling, immobile, on the run, cold bore, hot bore, etc.) with the load(s) I intend to hunt.

If you doubt what I am saying, just ask many folks who were shocked into apoplexy discovering that their $15,000 hand-tuned, best-name, marvel that fed one spitzer soft at a time like greased billiard balls, jammed every time they tried to feed it a truncated solid, or every time they tried to feed it from a full magazine; kicked back the empties in the feeding rails after a scope was mounted; etc. etc.

My own choice has evolved.

I continue to love an original Holland & Holland in .375, an original or modern Rigby in .416, a modern Mauser M98 in 12.7×70mm Schuler (OK, most folks call it the .500 Jeffery), a Heym Express (truth be told I prefer the more rugged pre-Martini version), or my own Mauser 98 actioned Dumoulin.

I continue to believe that the ZKK 602 / CZ 550 Magnum is a diamond in the rough, and the best-ever value in DG rifles although it needs some finishing work to become what it truly has the potential to be, and mine have been worked to functional perfection.

I continue to believe that the Win 70 is a great rifle, although not always as out-of-the-box ready as many think; generally too light for true stopper calibers; and with an action too short and a magazine too shallow for truly big cartridges (i.e. anything bigger than the .375 case family), and this is what I gifted my boys when they came of center-fire age.

I continue to love some great European classics such as the .458 Win Mannlicher Schönauer, or my own Mauser 66 .458 Lott (the multi barrel, telescopic action trailblazer - pun fully intended - that led to the Blaser R8).

Etc. etc.

And as many of you know, I ended on the Blaser R8 bandwagon that I reckon to be currently "the best bolt action rifle" for both non-dangerous and dangerous game due to its functionality, practicality, flawless engineering, and, so far for me 100% reliability both in the US and in Africa, after Elephant, Lion, Buffalo, dozens of PG species, and several thousand rounds from .223 Rem to .458 Lott, through .257 Wby, .300 Wby, and .375 H&H, as well as .270 Win and 9.3x62 for my wife.

It does everything my Mauser system rifles do, plus a lot more (!!!), and I do not mourn a Mauser extractor on it, because overpressure loads that would prevent its action from extracting would also prevent a Mauser from opening; nor do I mourn CRF on it, because its separate cocking system makes it just as safe, and it feeds anything I have tried so far like red hot spike through butter.

 

[Nevada Mike]

One Day...​

While I prefer CRF rifles, and I have Mauser 98 (magnum length DSB), Dakota, Win M70 (several), Ruger 77 Mk II, etc., I also have a M700 (in 22-250). I agree that every rifle should fit the shooter, that they all require some tuning, and that serious practice is essential.

But your argument that beveling the extractor face is somehow problematic does not convince me. I fail to see how the extractor can 'slip over' the cartridge rim on extraction if it is not beveled incorrectly. I insist that my CRF rifles be capable of single feeding without putting the cartridge down in the magazine, which takes more time than dropping it in and pushing it forward with the bolt - like a PF design.

 

[uplander01]

You can usually push an extra round in any CRF, especially if you have had someone polish it down (which creates a thinner extractor, but the real reason you shouldn't is that at some point you may risk snapping off/breaking the lower corner of the claw extractor where its thin and relatively pointed. When that happens, and you won't know it happened, it will pull the pushed in round out after firing, but you may have a feeding problem right at that moment in time with the next round coming out of the magazine. I was told this a long time ago regarding a pre-64 model 70.

 

[IvW]

One Day...​

While I prefer CRF rifles, and I have Mauser 98 (magnum length DSB), Dakota, Win M70 (several), Ruger 77 Mk II, etc., I also have a M700 (in 22-250). I agree that every rifle should fit the shooter, that they all require some tuning, and that serious practice is essential.

But your argument that beveling the extractor face is somehow problematic does not convince me. I fail to see how the extractor can 'slip over' the cartridge rim on extraction if it is not beveled incorrectly. I insist that my CRF rifles be capable of single feeding without putting the cartridge down in the magazine, which takes more time than dropping it in and pushing it forward with the bolt - like a PF design.

Correct a properly beveled extracter designed to slip over the rim is equally as strong as one designed not to do so when extracting a spent cartridge....

 

[Nhoro]

@Hogpatrol - I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one for the very reason that @Nevada Mike stated. A traveling hunter and PH have very different jobs and their choice in kit will vary accordingly.

That isnt what you said on the thread asking why PH's dont use Blaser R8. There you couldnt understand why PH's didnt use the rifle that you use ???

Funny enough I agree with what you said here. PH's need reliability first and then accuracy. Clients the other way around.

 

[jwp475]

Definitely NO expert on D/G rifles, except what I've learned from others.
Hundreds of handloads for various c/f rifles, and thousands for handguns, and yes, I've had stuff-ups, which have taught me a big bunch. (A custom Ruger No1 that's sub-MOA capable @ 1,000 yards?)
The O P's original question related to taking a bolt actioned rifle, presumably to Afrika, for hunting D/G.
extensive discussions with PHs, gunsmiths of extensive knowledge, and research lead me to the following:
CRF action, built to fit me, in an established, recognised workable caliber, mebbe one of the40s, and step up. Set it up load for accuracy and reliability, then thoroughly familiarise yourself with it. As a by-the-by, an "old mate" is having a 500 Jeffery built on a Champlin action; Gunsmiths I know use Mauser 98s, or GMAs. Sure, expensive, and time-consuming, but we'll get the ideal tool for the job.
Custom builds from H&H, Mauser, Rigby et al follow the same path.
'Nuf from me, let the discussion flow ...

I have no idea why some think mass produced ammo is better than meticulous hand loaded ammo. Amazing

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have no idea why some think mass produced ammo is better than meticulous hand loaded ammo. Amazing

You must not have read the writings of the most enlightened one declaring that the rest of us poor mortals are too incompetent to produce finally handcrafted rounds. We just dabble at hand loading and what we produce just can't be as reliable as mass produced cartridges that come in a cardboard box. You know, bullets fall out, extreme pressures that jam rifles, untried for function in our rifles, etc. He "knows" this because all of the PH's have told him this. The PH's that I know don't seem to feel this way at all, and the one I was out with in August shoots hand loads almost exclusively. He must not know anything either, he's only been doing it for 40 some years.
We are truly blessed to have gotten this information handed to us. As you said, "Amazing."

 

[gtrust]

1-I only use take-down rifles, makes transport easy. Your PH will be happy.
2-I like .375HH, Dakota 97, Outfitter. Accurate, weather proof, reliable, excellent iron sights.
3-But my preference is think beyond bolt to double barrels if possible.

 

[Aaron N]

I have no idea why some think mass produced ammo is better than meticulous hand loaded ammo. Amazing

I think the main concern is not so meticulously loaded and unthoroughly tested hand loads.