Aoudad Trophy or Scurge WSF podcast

[Muskox]

Wild Sheep Foundation

www.wildsheepfoundation.org

Check out this podcast and let me know what you think?


My thoughts:

From the rancher prospective:
1. Some asshole (the Wild Sheep Foundation), should not get to tell me how to manage private land, no should they try to.

If we look at the example in Wyoming, Montana, Colorado and Idaho in the push for more wild sheep and the removal of domestic sheep on the range, I think this has emboldened these assholes into thinking they can tell a rancher what to do in states that are 100% private land.

If they sold the sheep to the ranchers, who were interested and they got to treat them the same as they do aoudad, there would be tons of them.

2. The amount of wasted finances put in saving bighorn sheep so a very limited number of guys can shoot one is really sad. If the same effort was put into some kind of a management system for feral horse eradication or feral swine eradication it would benefit all wildlife.

3. Aoudad help to provide a financial resource that can be gained from the land. Bighorns remove the privatized wildlife issue from the rancher and give it to the state. Then the rancher who had aoudad has to ask the state for tags to sell on his land. Would you rather sell 20 aoudad hunts or 1 bighorn hunt. I am sure the amount of work involved in the 20 aoudad would actually be more like 25 times the work. But what is ultimately in it for the rancher?

4. The government agencies have lied to the livestock industry for as long as there have been government agencies. So what rancher would want more government oversight and bullshit?

From the blue collar/gray collar/white collar hunter:

1. The blue collar guy is going to have a 1 in 30,000 chance of drawing a tag in Texas. The odds are higher that a ton of money will be spent and no rams will be shot.
The middle class to white collar guys who can afford to do this, can't afford $200,000 for a private land hunt. They will hunt aoudad free range 1-5 times and apply for bighorns in other places. Or they will hunt in Mexico for $50,000. This isn't for everyone, clearly. The number of guys dumping $200,000 on a hunt is pretty limited.

2. This does not ultimately represent more opportunty for the public. It is a huge waste of Pittman Robertson dollars if it is used for that, and it is a vanity project. Doge would cut the hell out of this.

3. I think most hunters do not have a problem with a company like Kuiu self funding conservation for vanity projects. Kuiu has put more sheep on the mountain through their own efforts. This in my mind is a Montana bulls for billionaires scheme.

From the optics of the anti-hunting community:

1. This is a vanity project to fund wildlife management for a single species with limited public scope.




I am a sheep hunter, I have taken an aoudad in the Davis mountains and it was an amazing experience. I have also hunted aoudad in New Mexico many times. I have also raised exotic sheep when I was younger (mostly mouflons). I have never had a bighorn tag, I have hunted OTC resident Dall's sheep in Alaska years ago and I don't have a ram but I had a good time.

We should be putting more mountain goats in areas that would hold them in the west.

 

[MS 9x56]

For a guy from Germany you seem to have a pretty good understanding of Texas landowner rights and government oversight.

 

[Muskox]

I am an American, who grew up in a ranching family in Wyoming. Spent most of my life doing military stuff all over the world.

 

[MS 9x56]

I am an American, who grew up in a ranching family in Wyoming. Spent most of my life doing military stuff all over the world.

I kind of figured your post was well written and I agree with most of what you posted. I am yearning to get to west Texas to hunt aoudad in the next couple of years.

 

[Muskox]

Was a great hunt, I hunted near Fort Stockton. Baraso peak ranch. 500,000 acres. Used to be owned by Tommy Lee Jones. We stayed in his old ranch house.

 

[dogcat1]

I am an upper level membeer of WSF. It does some good but is mostly a money raising machine. They talk a great game but the average Joe will never hunt sheep except aoudad in the USA.
The draws are nearly impossible, the entities that enter you charge a bunch, governors tags are too pricey. There is virtually no way the average guy can hunt sheep anymore. An Alaska resident can, but who wants to live there just to hunt sheep.

Anyway, I have moved away from WSF as I really do not see the good they claim to do.

 

[uplander01]

The astoundingly rich and famous are funding Sheep, Moose, Goat, and Brown bear hunting. End of Story.

There are about the same number of guys spending 200k on a sheep hunt as there are spending a million on a Ferrari. It doesn't do regular mortals any good to even dwell on it. I used to think I wanted to hunt all the aforementioned game animals, now, I'd rather go to Africa with wife and friends, wear shorts and a t-shirt, hike, and shoot a half dozen animals and live like a king for a week or two.

 

[dchum]

Yes the relocated big horns really struggle to take hold In the trans pecos region. And the aoudad do a ton of habitat damage. They will eat a whole mountains side of grass in no time. Thats Bad for everything - the are tough and breed well.

I’m not sure what the solution is. I wish the big horns were hardier when they get to Texas. Lot of money spent as you have said on relocating. For them to just die…

I do know that aoudad numbers are already out of control and we know that population increase is exponential. Desert habitat is very fragile.

The heard of Pronghorn is not doing good. I hear stories of people in early 2000 driving to El Paso. You would see pronghorn for hours. Now the heard is 1100 individuals + or -

I know the relocated elk have taken hold and I will be chasing some at the end of the month.

Elk roamed the trans pecos area of west Texas for a long time. I guess Texas elk and bighorn is more of a “re populating” of former native range for those two species

It’s special country and I hope the right people can take care of it. Most ranch owners are stewards of wildlife these days. Like everything in life - this seems complicated.

I’m just lucky to get to enjoy it every once on a while, I have the best friends ever

 

[wesheltonj]

Hmm, 27 years ago I had the opportunity to shoot as many as possible for $0. They were a pest that the ranchers want gone. My boss shot like 18 that weekend, I did not go as I was not interested in driving all the way to Val Verde County to shoot pests. No one wanted them. Now, outfitters have created demand (poor man's sheep hunt) and now those hunt are around 6K for one.

I can tell you some of the ranchers around Alpine, Texas still don't want them and other do. The ones that have Bighorn despise them and want all them gone. Those that have them are too busy selling hunts making money.

I am not sure what the answer is. I know I will not pay 100k to shoot one animal. There will never be enough supply to meet the current demand for Bighorn. Farmed, high fenced might be the answer.

I suspect the only wild sheep that I will hunt is Mouflon in Europe. So far 19 years entering for a Texas tag and no luck and at 64 time is working against me.

Texas elk is different problem. They are not a "game animal" and not regulated by TPWD. They are not eligible for inclusion into Boone & Crockett as they are not a "game animal." Every legislative session their is a bill introduced to make them a "game animal" back by RMEF. It alway fails as Texas Wildlife Association is against it and makes sure it never makes it out of committee. I personally would never hunt one in Texas because of their treatment.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I might be the outlier but in my opinion but IMO if an exotic, non native species is competing with the wild sheep in terms of habitat and resources, or damaging the population due to disease then the state/federal government agencies charged with protection of our wild game need to step in and work the problem. This is an issue of conserving native North American Fauna vs a non native exotic species which could be considered by some as invasive. Ones ability to hunt wild sheep or one’s financial ability to do so is irrelevant, it’s about conservation of a species within their native habitat range.

To put this into a more African perspective, we’re talking about a total wild sheep population in North America (across the US, Mexico, and Canada) of roughly 85k individual animals. Thats less individual sheep than there are elephants in Botswana. I’d wager the number of sheep hunted in NA compared to Elephants in Botswana are fairly similar. Costs for a sheep hunt and an elephant hunt are also similar cost wise and not every hunter has the financial means to pursue a trophy bull. If Asian Elephants were introduced to Africa and competing against African Elephants and out performing them what would your stance be? How are NA Wild Sheep different than cattle or goats in Africa? Texas Landowners in this scenario are experiencing a unique human/wildlife conflict issue similar to African locals and landowners experience with Elephants, Rhinos, Lions, and Leopards.

 

[pilar]

I’m in the middle, I worked In the fort Davis area and Valentine, van horn areas for years
And they were all considered shoot on sight, we had a very good management program and large numbers of muledeer and pronghorns, now the aoudad have spread a respiratory disease and are in direct competition with them on forage, yet I am still reluctant about having the government come in and mandate rules,
I dearly love hunting for aoudad yet having seen their destruction of the habitat so something really needs to happen soon.
$5000-6000 per ram is ridiculous imo , same with nilgia they carry diseased ticks that are terrible for the cattle industry and deer hunting and need to be controlled, but have reached a tipping point where they are just not worth the cost of a hunt ( that only the deeper pockets can afford them)
It’s unfortunate that both aoudad and nilgia have to be controlled by the government with helicopter operators now , but they are diseased exotic animals that are spreading out in ranges that are not very healthy for their neighbor native species .

 

[dchum]

Now, outfitters have created demand (poor man's sheep hunt) and now those hunt are around 6K for one.

I agree with a lot in your post

But I don’t think outfitters “created the demand”. The 6k price tag is just simple economics.
It’s a great hunt and people really enjoy going after old mature rams and trophy hunting them.

Of course going out and shooting as many as you see indiscriminately would not be fun for most ,even for free. So you were probably smart to not drive to Val verde (also note that Val verde county has no big horn, never had big horn, and has no big horn projects and is not in or near the trans pecos mountain ranges and isn’t really apart of the Aoudad vs “native” big horn habitat argument) Those is the devils river aoudad population.

hunting and locating the oldest biggest ram is what makes it fun hunting.
You can say that for a lot of species “Pest” or not…


It’s interesting that the two non “game animals” and un protected animals - the Aoudad and Elk, are thriving with herds increasing rapidly in west Texas

While the Pronghorn, mule deer, and Big Horn are Texas game animals and are protected. Yet, they are dwindling and going in the opposite direction in the Trans pecos region.

Seems to be a loosing battle at this rate

 

[Red Leg]

The cost of an aoudad hunt is no more outrageous than any other consumer driven demand.

In the Alpine area of Texas, it can take 80 -150 acres to sustain a single cow - that does not include rotating pasturage or the vertical terrain where cattle can't graze but aoudad can. A 100k ranch is little more than a mom and pop operation trying to survive. Were I the owner, and an outfitter offered me $3K a tag for ten to fifteen "permits," those worthless rams are the difference between survival and an auction sale.

Meanwhile there is exactly zero that the wealthy bighorn proponents are offering that same land owner other than potential limitations on the use of his own property. Unless the Feds step in (which will not be popular in Texas), I suspect aoudad are here to stay.

Fortunately, they represent a great hunting opportunity.

 

[pilar]

“
It’s interesting that the two non “game animals” and un protected animals - the Aoudad and Elk, are thriving with herds increasing rapidly in west Texas

While the Pronghorn, mule deer, and Big Horn are Texas game animals and are protected. Yet, they are dwindling and going in the opposite direction in the Trans pecos region.

Seems to be a loosing battle at this rate””

They don’t have any immunity’s to the pneumonia the aoudad carry and the extreme over grazing conditions that have been observed lately.
We used to have wast high gama grass and other cover important to the native game
Recruitment, now lots of areas are bare, only good I see is that aoudad tearing holes in the fences so pronghorn can move around to eat and drink .
As ranch’s become smaller and smaller all across the country it is a bad deal for pronghorn and muledeer
In my life time I have seen pronghorn disappear from Mexico and South Texas due to livestock and exotic
And aoudad exploding across the south west Texas and hill country, Mexico
I truly love aoudad hunting but I also love to hunt pronghorn and muledeer in Texas

 

[LivingTheDream]

Wild Sheep Foundation

www.wildsheepfoundation.org

Check out this podcast and let me know what you think?


My thoughts:

From the rancher prospective:
1. Some asshole (the Wild Sheep Foundation), should not get to tell me how to manage private land, no should they try to.

If we look at the example in Wyoming, Montana, Colorado and Idaho in the push for more wild sheep and the removal of domestic sheep on the range, I think this has emboldened these assholes into thinking they can tell a rancher what to do in states that are 100% private land.

If they sold the sheep to the ranchers, who were interested and they got to treat them the same as they do aoudad, there would be tons of them.

2. The amount of wasted finances put in saving bighorn sheep so a very limited number of guys can shoot one is really sad. If the same effort was put into some kind of a management system for feral horse eradication or feral swine eradication it would benefit all wildlife.

3. Aoudad help to provide a financial resource that can be gained from the land. Bighorns remove the privatized wildlife issue from the rancher and give it to the state. Then the rancher who had aoudad has to ask the state for tags to sell on his land. Would you rather sell 20 aoudad hunts or 1 bighorn hunt. I am sure the amount of work involved in the 20 aoudad would actually be more like 25 times the work. But what is ultimately in it for the rancher?

4. The government agencies have lied to the livestock industry for as long as there have been government agencies. So what rancher would want more government oversight and bullshit?

From the blue collar/gray collar/white collar hunter:

1. The blue collar guy is going to have a 1 in 30,000 chance of drawing a tag in Texas. The odds are higher that a ton of money will be spent and no rams will be shot.
The middle class to white collar guys who can afford to do this, can't afford $200,000 for a private land hunt. They will hunt aoudad free range 1-5 times and apply for bighorns in other places. Or they will hunt in Mexico for $50,000. This isn't for everyone, clearly. The number of guys dumping $200,000 on a hunt is pretty limited.

2. This does not ultimately represent more opportunty for the public. It is a huge waste of Pittman Robertson dollars if it is used for that, and it is a vanity project. Doge would cut the hell out of this.

3. I think most hunters do not have a problem with a company like Kuiu self funding conservation for vanity projects. Kuiu has put more sheep on the mountain through their own efforts. This in my mind is a Montana bulls for billionaires scheme.

From the optics of the anti-hunting community:

1. This is a vanity project to fund wildlife management for a single species with limited public scope.




I am a sheep hunter, I have taken an aoudad in the Davis mountains and it was an amazing experience. I have also hunted aoudad in New Mexico many times. I have also raised exotic sheep when I was younger (mostly mouflons). I have never had a bighorn tag, I have hunted OTC resident Dall's sheep in Alaska years ago and I don't have a ram but I had a good time.

We should be putting more mountain goats in areas that would hold them in the west.

I pretty much disagree with everything in your post, however I do agree we should be doing more for mountain goats and getting them in areas that will hold them.

Oh and yes the government has continuously lied to ranchers that is pretty much spot on.