458 Win Mag. Short Barrel Chrono Results...

HWL

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I cannot speak for what anyone else does or don't do, only myself.

But I know, that Ken Oehler sells you his equipment...... so he can't be wrong. ;)

I believe in test barrels, since decades.

Here it is common practice to send some five cartridges to the proof house, where they test it in a CIP test barrel.

I have seen lots of rifles blown apart, loaded with calculated ammunition, but non a single one with reloaded CIP tested ammunition.

These are the hard facts....


HWL
 

CoElkHunter

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Actually that is not correct. I know exactly the pressures we are running with most all the loads I have posted. I have been running pressures and load data here for over 20 years, with several different systems, including the Industry Standard by Oehler systems. We work on a 50 yard Indoor Shooting range, where computers, LabRadar, PACT Chronographs, and Pressure equipment is setup ready to use at a moments notice when required. I have run literally 1000s upon top of 1000s of rounds of Pressure tests in everything from 223 up to and including 577 Nitro Express..........

In addition to that, I have taken this same pressure data to Africa, multiple times, have hunted with this same pressure tested ammo in Africa at 115 degrees F.......... Many Times over again. And concerning hot climate, my friend, I live in the Coastal Plains of South Carolina, where July and August it gets so damn hot you cannot be outside, 110 degrees and humidity 80% or better, you walk outside and hit a WALL of hot wet air that you cannot get your breath, don't talk to me about Hot Climate. I have taken loaded ammo, left it in the hot sun for determined periods, and then tested it for high pressure, do not pretend to tell me about what pressures can be generated in hot climates. I have also taken ammo like this and put it in the freezer for determined periods to test in the other direction as well, especially when I was preparing for a trip to Russia for bear, and or Alaska.

You speak out of turn, outside your area of expertise, and presume too much.......

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There is nothing done here that is not based in science, from load/pressure data, to blending powders together, bullet technology designed and developed here, design of various different cartridges developed here, and many special projects completed here and no where else in the world............ Many shooters go out and plink cans for fun, we do science for fun..............
I've read a number of threads/posts here on AH and elsewhere, talking about hunting in extreme heat and thus the increase in pressure in rifle cartridges. Who hunts big game in those extreme temperatures? I've hunted doves in the 100s F, but never big game. Most hunting here occurs in temperate and/or cold weather in the fall and winter. Never having been there, I was led to believe that African hunting is during their winter months with temperate weather for the most part? If so, why the emphasis on cartridge pressure during big game hunting in extremely hot weather?
 

PeteG

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I've read a number of threads/posts here on AH and elsewhere, talking about hunting in extreme heat and thus the increase in pressure in rifle cartridges. Who hunts big game in those extreme temperatures? I've hunted doves in the 100s F, but never big game. Most hunting here occurs in temperate and/or cold weather in the fall and winter. Never having been there, I was led to believe that African hunting is during their winter months with temperate weather for the most part? If so, why the emphasis on cartridge pressure during big game hunting in extremely hot weather?
Temperature is most definitely a factor.
Most hunting here starts near the end of our winter and runs through the hottest season to the start of the rains.
If you were in the luangwa valley now, you'd be facing between 35degC (95F) and 40degC (104F) as the current max temps.

It will only get hotter as October moves on.
Testing ammo in those hot temps is definitely a good thing.

Other countries will vary.
 

michael458

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I've read a number of threads/posts here on AH and elsewhere, talking about hunting in extreme heat and thus the increase in pressure in rifle cartridges. Who hunts big game in those extreme temperatures?
Back in the day (dinosaurs roamed the earth)..... I would take the left over quota of buffalo that some of my guys had on hand for the season. That always meant late season, and mostly Zimbabwe, and much of the time hot as hell...... One year we hunted daily temps were running 105-115 and it was miserable. But I got to shoot a lot of buffalo at reasonable prices in those days, so it was worth it to me, at the time...... Not today, I am too fat for that.........

I have also hunted Australia and it gets hot as hell there too in late season. We would normally shoot from daylight until around 9 am and call it off until later, 4-5 pm......... Sit in camp under the shade tree in between and eat anything cold that you could........ I remember we had some ice cold dill pickles that year, and man they were refreshing..... HEH........

I have heard of the Extreme Pressures and what have you concerning heat and ammo. But I have to tell you, I have never experienced a problem or issue with that. Of course my hunting took place from the mid 90s forward, I used a lot of different big bores, lots of different powders, never a problem. I suspect most of those issues may have occurred before the dinosaurs, and working with powders from those days. Todays modern powders are far less temperature sensitive, and most are just plain resistant to wide ranges of temperatures. I would not believe that it is as big of an issue today, as it might have been 60+ years ago. Powders 60+ years ago may very well have been a concern, and especially pushing pressures to the max. Today, I am personally not convinced its much to worry about. I never had this happen, I don't know of anyone that it has been a problem, and honestly today if I heard this I would suspect strongly that there might be other issues involved as well.

I not saying disregard it, and testing things is always the best bet, especially when going to an environment totally different from your load development. Those of us that are so lucky as to live in the Southern US, developing our loads in our summer, and shooting, will have no issues going to hot climates anywhere on the planet. Of course, this is coming from yours truly who does his load development in nice Cool Air Con...... HEH HEH..............Test outside? Oh Hell No........... No days like that........
 

michael458

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Hello Michael.

I'm here in Socastee and work outside all year in Horry and GTN Counties. I agree with you.. I can't imagine anyone doing it for fun. 100 + Temps and humidity above 85% most of the time is brutal.
DB
Howdy Neighbor........... Know exactly where you are, about 12 miles from me......Yep, folks don't have a clue unless they have spent some time here with us....

My wife is South African. Before we got married, and she was in Pretoria, we spoke one day on the phone, she was telling me hot brutally hot it was, and she was going to melt....... OK.... I got online, looked at the weather in Pretoria, it was only 90 degrees.... LOL.... I laughed at her and told her, "Honey, you ain't seen hot until you pitch up here"................. Its not hot in Pretoria, that is a nice COOL Day for Horry! She has been here 20 years now, and she agrees completely..........

I can say with confidence, we work up our loads here, then they are safe anywhere on the planet. Hell might be a tad hotter than Horry County, but only on certain days.........

Of course, I am not going to mention that ALL of my shooting is now done indoors under the Cool Air Con blowing on me and the rifles, keeping it a "balmy" 70 degrees...........I can't imagine what "Common Shooter" has to live with these days..... Ho Hummmm...... LOL... OK, I am kidding here..... Not about the Air Con, just the "common shooter" comment.... HEH HEH...........OK OK.... I am testing for COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS....................

@Daggaboy375 good to hear of a local boy but you gonna have to change that 375 crap to something proper, maybe 458 or something..........
 

Daggaboy375

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Yes sir. That was my first "african caliber". Have since acquired an SC made Model 70 458WM. And a pre 64 m70 in 300 H&H that I am enjoying reloading for and. shooting.

Sorry for thread drift.

DB from Ward Gunrack days.
 

michael458

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Yes sir. That was my first "african caliber". Have since acquired an SC made Model 70 458WM.
Now that is what I would expect of a fine upstanding South Carolina Boy! VERY VERY WELL Done.......

DB from Ward Gunrack days.
Oh My.... DB, we are getting Old my friend.... We have to know each other as much time as I spent down there back in the days of Dinosaurs, talking about Dom the old Dino!

Yes, @TOBY458 apologies for the high jack.... However, DB does have a proper 458 so that kinda works its way in.........

DB, sending you a PM..........
 

Forrest Halley

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Yeah, I could not wait a few weeks either, just barely a few days... LOL.... Its posted above, you just missed it is all.........I did the range work yesterday in fact..............Unfortunately I had very little direct comparisons, but enough to give some ideas. And, I did shoot enough to know that 22 inch 458 Lott is a viable project, just as @TOBY458 s 22 inch 458 Winchester is....... And you can compound that with using Bullet Tech.
I missed it!?! Darn, you're right, I did.

Anywho you fired the 450 solid but not the 420 raptor? What about the 420 raptor? Inquiring minds are curious... :A Stirring: How bad off would a 16" .458 Lott or WM be given all this science?
 

michael458

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What about the 420 raptor? Inquiring minds are curious...
No, I did not run any 420 Raptors. I did however run some older versions of a 425 gr Lehigh Brass HP's I have on hand from the old days instead of wasting Raptors, and its a good bullet too. The only thing about it, the Nose Projection is very long, it could have used some design tweaks. These come in at 425 gr, so I did use the same load as the 450 Solid and 420 Raptor Comparisons.....80/IMR 8208

425 Lehigh 80/IMR 208 two tests, both odd as it seems averaged 2378 fps PACT velocity, with one 2399 fps LabRadar and the the other 2405 fps LabRadar........

Same 425 Lehigh with 79/V-N530 ran 2377 fps PACT and 2403 fps LabRadar........

Compared with 2442 fps from the #50 24 inch barrel with the 420 Raptor........
How bad off would a 16" .458 Lott or WM be given all this science?
What, the Science of the HackSaw?...........I don't know, but I suspect that you will begin to reach diminishing returns at some point, it takes what it takes, end of story. Now what did I say? It takes what it takes! Meaning, that you have to have so many cubic inches of inside space to burn a certain amount of powder, and the way that powder starts off in the chamber, short and fat, or long and skinny, makes a difference in internal ballistics. Burning 80 gr of powder, and depending on the burn rates of any given powder, it takes a certain amount of barrel length to burn efficiently. Longer barrels can burn slower powders better, shorter barrels need to work with faster powders, but you can only take it so far. You can add Bullet Tech and this will help you in your endeavors in the field. This is true with long or short of course, but with the short, it becomes even more important to your success.

We have a 458 B&M Super Short, shooting 325 gr #13 Solids that have shot through 6 feet of elephant frontal brain...... Hmmm...... Those guns weigh 6.25 lbs and have 16.25 inch barrels, how about that.....What would happen if you put that Bullet Tech in a 16 inch 458 Lott? Hmmmmmm........What would happen if you designed a 400 gr #13 for that 16 inch gun? Hmmmm.....
 

Forrest Halley

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Well my problem is that I will never be able to board the B&M train. The concept is great, but I myself have great insecurities about anything that the brass isn't commonly available for and if these RUMs dry up as I think they are going to, that's a problem. For me it would have to be a Lott to play the short barrel game with so I could hedge my bets two ways.

why-is-the-rum-gone-2.gif
 
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michael458

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For me it would have to be a Lott to play the short barrel game with so I could hedge my bets two ways.
Yeah, sure thing..... Go find some 458 Lott brass today.........maybe some is available but I could not find any the other day..... I don't need any, just looking, I have plenty that I made long before there was Hornady 458 Lott, made it from 375HH.... And later from 416 Rem. Naturally the 416 Rem//458 Lott brass is far more effective....... I still have plenty of 375 and 416 brass, I can make more 458 Lott easy enough....... Both are much better brass than the current 458 Lott from Hornady.

Thats why you don't buy 50 pieces at a time, you buy 1000........... The 500 MDM requires 375 RUM, of course, there isn't any, but I am sitting on 2000 pieces. At some Point, Norma, Hornady, and Nosler will make 375RUM, as they are making most all the other RUM and its available from some sources today. But I will never need it, nor will any of the other owners.

Well my problem is that I will never be able to board the B&M train
And you think you could, even if you wanted to? I am not sure you have passed the test..............LOL

Now, I must go and sort my 458 Lott brass, I just gave it all a good wash the other day and it is beautiful stuff now nice and shiny, precious metals I say....... some incredible good looking nickel 416 Rem/458 Lott to go with it....... maybe if Forrest is a good boy, I will even take a photo for him.....HEH
 

Forrest Halley

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Yeah, sure thing..... Go find some 458 Lott brass today.........maybe some is available but I could not find any the other day..... I don't need any, just looking, I have plenty that I made long before there was Hornady 458 Lott, made it from 375HH.... And later from 416 Rem. Naturally the 416 Rem//458 Lott brass is far more effective....... I still have plenty of 375 and 416 brass, I can make more 458 Lott easy enough....... Both are much better brass than the current 458 Lott from Hornady.

Thats why you don't buy 50 pieces at a time, you buy 1000........... The 500 MDM requires 375 RUM, of course, there isn't any, but I am sitting on 2000 pieces. At some Point, Norma, Hornady, and Nosler will make 375RUM, as they are making most all the other RUM and its available from some sources today. But I will never need it, nor will any of the other owners.


And you think you could, even if you wanted to? I am not sure you have passed the test..............LOL

Now, I must go and sort my 458 Lott brass, I just gave it all a good wash the other day and it is beautiful stuff now nice and shiny, precious metals I say....... some incredible good looking nickel 416 Rem/458 Lott to go with it....... maybe if Forrest is a good boy, I will even take a photo for him.....HEH
Well that's another thing entirely. I have 400+ pieces of .458 Lott, but like you said I can make it from other brass that is available and will likely remain available.

I wouldn't join any rifle club that would have me as a member...haha!

Yeah you go play with your pretty little cases in your evil scientist cave and we'll all sit here and be jealous and call you names. :A Tease:
 

michael458

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why-is-the-rum-gone-2.gif


I have it ALL....................LOL...............

Well that's another thing entirely. I have 400+ pieces of .458 Lott, but like you said I can make it from other brass that is available and will likely remain available.
That a boy..........But do you have any Nickel Cases like some of these...... ???

DSCN2932-X3.jpg



Yeah you go play with your pretty little cases in your evil scientist cave and we'll all sit here and be jealous and call you names.

DSC05744-XL.jpg


DSC05749-X2.jpg



HEH HEH..... OK.......
 
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Forrest Halley

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View attachment 429547

I have it ALL....................LOL...............


That a boy..........But do you have any Nickel Cases like some of these...... ???

View attachment 429550




View attachment 429548

View attachment 429549


HEH HEH..... OK.......
Oh my goodness! I laughed so loudly my wife came over to see what was the matter. Well played indeed sir. You have that Kimber well employed as well...as a paperweight! Haha!

Strangely enough I have some nickel 416/458 too.
 

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kidogo

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Never understood why you'd want to chop a barrel that short. Never had a problem with a longer barrel and you'll get more velocity.
 

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