450/400 3” Velocity…is it enough?

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Hi guys!

Looking for some opinions..

I’m in the process of developing a load to regulate in my new to me double rifle.
After trialing about 5 different gunpowders en 5 different bullets I finally found a combination that regulates well in the rifle.72 gr of IMR 4831. As I increase the velocity the group starts crossing.

The problem is the regulation velocity is only 1950 fps out of 24” barrels.

Is this enough for cape buffalo?

Please share your thoughts

Cheers

F

 

[wildwilderness]

Exactly which bullet is this with? What weight? Hard to calculate KE without that info, or potential performance.


As a guess, it will kill a buff, but the question is it ideal?

 

[MacJenkins]

I would want another 100fps or so. Not sure if needed?

Seams like a little more dwell time in the barrel. Tried anything in the RL22, 23, N165 range?

 

[Skshyk]

I noticed you wrote Hornady on the target, I am assuming you are using DG bullets. Try Barnes as we are all aware now they are great buffalo medicine.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Bullet is Hornady DGX bonded 400 gr.

I have tried H1000,H4831SC,H4350,Reloader 15. I have tried Barnes, Woodleigh, Swift A frames.

I would be pretty concerned about a Barnes not expanding at 1950fps

 

[Rare Breed]

View attachment 713145Hi guys!

Looking for some opinions..

I’m in the process of developing a load to regulate in my new to me double rifle.
After trialing about 5 different gunpowders en 5 different bullets I finally found a combination that regulates well in the rifle.72 gr of IMR 4831. As I increase the velocity the group starts crossing.

The problem is the regulation velocity is only 1950 fps out of 24” barrels.

Is this enough for cape buffalo?

Please share your thoughts

Cheers

F

I have only heard of this in old English DRs. Just curious how are you discovering it is 1950 FPS? If chronometer just asking if it is set up to give an accurate measure? I would have expected to see 2050 FPS to get regulation which is what my handloads did with Hornady DGX which took my first Cape Buffalo

 

[Rare Breed]

In my own 450-400 DR

 

[Longwalker]

I shot a buffalo in Mozambique last year with my .450-400 3". Used Swift A frame bullets at a muzzle velocity of 2050 fps. The situation called for a "long" shot of approx. 90-120M. Penetration was full with exit on the the first shot, broadside to the base of the neck. That just missed the spinal cord. A follow up shot at the departing buffalo penetrated the haunch, the guts, rumen, and was found resting on the diaphragm. A third shot behind the ear finished the story. I thought both expansion and penetration of those shots at double "normal" buffalo shooting distances was OK. So I wouldn't be too worried about your load going 100 fps slower, but would refrain from "far" shots with it. Your load fired at 50 M wouldn't be much different than what I experienced.
Your load duplicates the lower velocity "African" load that made the reputation of the .450-400 in days gone by. Necessary then because those cartridges were loaded with temperature sensitive cordite powder. Certainly not all those buffalo and elephant were shot during seasons of the hottest temperatures, and they still died.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

I have only heard of this in old English DRs. Just curious how are you discovering it is 1950 FPS? If chronometer just asking if it is set up to give an accurate measure? I would have expected to see 2050 FPS to get regulation which is what my handloads did with Hornady DGX which took my first Cape Buffalo

Velocity was measured with a Labradar .Not much to screw up with that device. The shots at higher velocities crossed so I reduced the loads in 1 gr increments until they stopped crossing..

 

[318AE]

Others may tell you differently, but I think it’s good enough. I have some of experience getting old 450/400 3” DRs to regulate, and am not surprised this is the load that regulates. Mine have usually regulated closer to 2,050. The only remaining variable to try is the Woodleighs in bore diameters +/- .001. There was some variance is the bores of these old rifles, and getting that right can be key.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

View attachment 713145Hi guys!

Looking for some opinions..

I’m in the process of developing a load to regulate in my new to me double rifle.
After trialing about 5 different gunpowders en 5 different bullets I finally found a combination that regulates well in the rifle.72 gr of IMR 4831. As I increase the velocity the group starts crossing.

The problem is the regulation velocity is only 1950 fps out of 24” barrels.

Is this enough for cape buffalo?

Please share your thoughts

Cheers

F

On a broadside heart-lung shot, yes.

On a frontal or quartering away shot, no.

I know this from personal experience. The hunt was disastrous.

 

[Rem700stw]

Yes. This represents the likely REAL velocity of the old tropical loads back in the day. I used Hornady DGX bonded bullets out of necessity in my vintage 450-400 on Buffalo in 2023. No complaints from me. The Buffalo however got very sick and died rather suddenly.

My RL 15 load was similar in velocity to yours and quite accurate. I find most commercial ammo in today’s world to be somewhat optimistic in terms of claimed velocity and expect it has always been thus.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I noticed you wrote Hornady on the target, I am assuming you are using DG bullets. Try Barnes as we are all aware now they are great buffalo medicine.

I agree with you regarding Barnes TSX being far superior to Hornady DGX Bonded for Cape buffalo hunting.

But in the original poster’s context, I would not recommend Barnes TSX. He is only getting 1950 FPS as it is, with a lead cored bullet out of his .450/400 Nitro Express Standard 3”. The Barnes TSX is a monometal bullet, and so (in 400Gr weight) would be longer than the 400Gr Hornady DGX Bonded bullet. Consequently, this would take up more case capacity and result in an even slower veloctiy.

 

[Rem700stw]

I just saw Hunter-Habib’s post and even though my shot was quartering away I must defer to his experience and expertise and will try to boost my loads in the future.

 

[MacJenkins]

Seams like you have tried almost everything. So I have a 1920ish Westley Richard’s 450/400 3” that was being a SOB to get regulated similar to yours. Finally tried some .410 and .411 Northfork Cup Point and Solids. That did the trick! Shot both good.

Not tying to make you chase down more bullets. But that’s ended up being the only bullet I found that would shoot. I tried them all all the popular bullets except for the TSX.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Seams like you have tried almost everything. So I have a 1920ish Westley Richard’s 450/400 3” that was being a SOB to get regulated similar to yours. Finally tried some .410 and .411 Northfork Cup Point and Solids. That did the trick! Shot both good.

Not tying to make you chase down more bullets. But that’s ended up being the only bullet I found that would shoot. I tried them all all the popular bullets except for the TSX.

I’m happy to try the North Forks, but to be fair the Aframes are not too far off not crossing.

My real concern is with the more strongly constructed bullets that they might not function optimally at the lower velocities .

 

[wildwilderness]

I’m happy to try the North Forks, but to be fair the Aframes are not too far off not crossing.

My real concern is with the more strongly constructed bullets that they might not function optimally at the lower velocities .

I think there may be a paradox- if it’s going slow a stronger bullet will not expand as much but will penetrate deeper

A really soft bullet will expand more but penetrate less.

So which do you want? (Of course an ideal scenario is both good expansion and full penetration but that would need a faster bullet)

What would be better to properly kill a buffalo?

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

I think there may be a paradox- if it’s going slow a stronger bullet will not expand as much but will penetrate deeper

A really soft bullet will expand more but penetrate less.

So which do you want? (Of course an ideal scenario is both good expansion and full penetration but that would need a faster bullet)

What would be better to properly kill a buffalo?

Fair point

 

[Desperatezulu]

DGX, even the newer and supposedly better version, would NOT be my choice for DG. I get that you're trying to get your double regulating but as has been mentioned, Woodleighs and Northfork should be explored. A-Frames are always worth a try too.

Another factor to bear in mind, just because the Hornadys regulate at 1950 doesn't mean that another bullet will regulate at the same MV. So you may find that Barnes or something else regulates at 2050 or 2100.

My opinion - use a suitable bullet first. You're not trying to achieve PRS levels of accuracy here.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

I have put the above mentioned bullets through a range of velocities ranging from 1800-2200.
It is not through a lack of trying.
I have hope that the new powder that I am currently exploring might do the trick -IMR4831.

I do not mind not achieving sniper level accuracy…But if they cross at 25 m already it becomes a problem