.416 isn't grouping well!

[Shootist43]

Bruce you are correct. Prior to your comment I always considered accuracy testing and zeroing part and parcel of the same thing. They can be broken down into two separate functions. Thanks

 

[Hogpatrol]

Tests have been done that have shown scope reticles can move with recoil on the first shot after adjustment. As far as the lead sled, I have observed myself and other guys shooting in a lead sled get better accuracy and groups shooting out of the sled.

Edit, I've only seen one scope destroyed in a lead sled, a Bushnell mounted on a BPS muzzleloader.

 

[fourfive8]

Once you get the thing shooting with acceptable accuracy--- 50 yards is a very useful distance for sighting in and practice with a DG rifle for several reasons. If the 416 is to be used for longer distance PG and not DG then maybe practice shooting at 100 + and zeroing at 100 up to maybe 1 inch high at 100 MIGHT be useful.

Another thing to consider is if it is to be used for DG- sight in and adjust the open sights first. Get used to using the open sights at 25 to 50 yards and make sure the opens sights put the POI at POA at 50. Trying to sight in, zero or practice at longer distances with open sights on a DG rifle can become counter productive. Then mount scope and zero it also at about 50 yards. Any accuracy or shooter errors are easily detected at 50 yards and most first shots at dangerous game are at roughly that range. What would be the point of sighting in/zeroing for DG at longer ranges anyway! For DG practice hitting POA at various distances from pretty close up to about 100 max off sticks or off hand or whatever other field conditions you may like. After all that for DG prep, go ahead and practice some at maybe 100 to 150 for those fairly common follow ups on hit but fleeing DG. A scoped 416 zeroed at 50 with a 400 gr bullet with normal BC and normal vel will only be about 2.5 inches low @ 150... nothing really on a large DG animal.

 

[One Day...]

Going on the same general path as fourfive8, but a bit further...

(...and per previous posts, I am not worried about getting that CZ to shoot straight. It is already shooting straight I bet. It will be really simple in retrospect: I stick to my diagnosis: a 10 MOA issue with a scoped rifle is mechanical, period, especially with a guy who has been shooting and reloading for years. A green shooter would be a different story. Don't forget the nail polish drops, you will be surprised )

Happily, you can forget the 50 yd zero vs. 100 yd zero discussion for the Rigby

Interestingly the .416 Rigby has this fine characteristic that with 400 slugs it is SIMULTANEOUSLY zeroed at 50 AND 100 yards . That should indeed be the iron sights zero. Easy!

This being said, 100 yd is not, in my view, the best zero for the SCOPE on the Rigby, even for DG or DG/PG combo. Throwing 400 gr TSX at 2,400 fps, I personally zero the scope for: +1" @ 50 yd / +2" @ 100 yd / +1.3" @ 150 yd / -1.3" @ 200 yd. Frankly, who cares if you re 2" high on a buff (or most anything short of a duiker) at 100 yd - I agree with fourfive8, it is "nothing" - not to mention that under field conditions the cross hairs will be hovering a few inches anyway, even off the sticks never mind if you shoot off hand

The shortcoming, in my view, of the 100 yd zero for the Rigby is that it gives you: 0" @ 50 yd / 0" @ 100 yd / -2.0" @ 150 yd / -6" @ 200 yd. I would rather be +2" at 100 yd and have a 200 yd reach, than be 0" at 100 yd and -6" at 200 yd. That first shot is indeed likely to be close on DG (although it seems that a lot more buffs are shot at 100 yd than people realize, especially in open habitat: Zambezi delta, Okavango, etc.) but 200 yd is likely to be useful on follow up shots, if needed...

Just my $0.02 and happily to each his own...

 

[bruce moulds]

I thought we were talking about grouping problems, but since ideal zeroing ranges have crept into the discussion, here are 2 calculations for the 400 gn swift at 2300 fps.
scope 1.5" above bore centreline.
irons will be different.

100 yd zero.
25yds -0.5"
50yds +0.2"
75yds +0.3"
100yds 0"
150yds -2.2"

25yd zero
25yds 0"
50yds +1.1"
75yds +1.7"
100yds +1.8"
150yds +0.6"
175yds -0.9"

take this for what it costs you. nothing is right or wrong.
most rifles zeroed at 25 yds shoot high at 100, and faster ones with higher b.c. bullets will shoot high at 200.
if you are shooting for zero at 25, and you are 1/10" out, this will be magnified by the time the bullet gets further out. both for windage and elevation.
if you are shooting at 200, wind can become an issue.
if you want a true 25 yd zero, still shoot at 100, and put the group 1.8" to 2" high, and the zeros will probably be more accurate.
bruce.

 

[Graham Hunter]

Ive used my lead sled with my 416 Rigby and a VX3 2.5-8. Haven't had any problems. Haven't seen a durable scope go down to one yet, but not to say that cant happen. Using one to make sure your rifle and scope are mechanically correct or 'perfect' is a great way to start preparation for your practice in more hunting type situations. Its also an easy way to diagnose certain problems.

Side note, Ive seen first hand the machine that Leupold uses to test scopes, both theirs and others. Ive seen the premium mentioned scopes in this thread fail and VX3's pass....same extreme forces. Ive also seen some scopes lenses blow out that make you shutter.

I have cracked 2 stocks from a lead sled. A 375 and a 416. Apparently I had too much weight on the sled with 50lbs. Now I never put more than 25 lbs and have had no problems.

 

[bruce moulds]

the more I look at the above trajectories, the better the 100 yd zero looks for dangerous game shooting.
at the closer ranges the bullet is closer to the line of sight, while still allowing for follow up shots further out.
however getting a zero is not really simple.
even the 9.3x64 will shoot to different heights depending on the hold.
of course the zero must be correct for offhand, as that is the fallback position with dangerous game.
but who can group meaningfully shooting offhand.
you need to shoot from some sort of rest , and then fire something like a 10 shot group offhand, taking the average, to test it.
bruce.

 

[IvW]

the more I look at the above trajectories, the better the 100 yd zero looks for dangerous game shooting.
at the closer ranges the bullet is closer to the line of sight, while still allowing for follow up shots further out.
however getting a zero is not really simple.
even the 9.3x64 will shoot to different heights depending on the hold.
of course the zero must be correct for offhand, as that is the fallback position with dangerous game.
but who can group meaningfully shooting offhand.
you need to shoot from some sort of rest , and then fire something like a 10 shot group offhand, taking the average, to test it.
bruce.

OP first needs to get the rifle grouping before thinking about zero distance. 25 and 50 yards is a suggested starting point to try and determine what is causing the inaccuracy/large grouping.

 

[bruce moulds]

yes I made that point before, but others started talking about zero ranges.
25 and 50 yds is a waste of time for both zeroing, as demonstrated above, and testing in general.
they are distances to use to teach youth how to shoot, building confidence by minimizing the appearance of bad shots.
here you want to see bad shots.
bruce.

 

[IvW]

25 and 50 yds is a waste of time for that.
bruce.

Ok

 

[Patrik D]

I'm loading 410gr Woodleigh soft points over 90gr of RL22. A start load.

As Graham Hunter wrote, your load is below minimum load.

RL22 is equal to Norma MRP and Norma says 94 grains MRP as a minimum and max 98,5 grains.

There you have your problem... try 96 grains RL22 and you will see much better grouping.

Don't be scared of the recoil... you might notice the recoil but it wont hurt you unless you are made of gelly...

 

[IvW]

Don't be scared of the recoil... you might notice the recoil but it wont hurt you unless you are made of gelly...

That may well be part of the problem as well.

 

[njc110381]

As Graham Hunter wrote, your load is below minimum load.

RL22 is equal to Norma MRP and Norma says 94 grains MRP as a minimum and max 98,5 grains.

There you have your problem... try 96 grains RL22 and you will see much better grouping.

Don't be scared of the recoil... you might notice the recoil but it wont hurt you unless you are made of gelly...

See I'm a bit lost by the loadings to be honest. Minimum listed charge varies from 86gr (Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition) to 96gr (Barnes). Likewise maximum load varies from 96gr to 106gr. As far as case fill is concerned, 90gr isn't looking to be low enough to be a problem. Sure I'll up it to give it a go, but I really can't see that causing a 10" group? A poor charge weight group is never 10", it's just impossible!

 

[Shootist43]

Njc, I just realized what others have said. Your load is way too light. QuickLoad came up with 101 Gr. of RL - 22 for a velocity of 2442 FPS. My loads produce just over 2400 FPS with a different powder. Load up a few at the higher charge weight and give it a go. It seems like a lot of us including me overlooked the obvious.

 

[bruce moulds]

obvious or possibility?

 

[njc110381]

Lets hope obvious! If that's all it is then it's a simple fix. As much as I could be flinching the shots a little, I don't feel like I am. When I started out years ago I remember starting to develop a flinch and it was something I was very aware of. We got around it by my mentor loading the rifle for me whilst I looked the other way. The flinch on an empty chamber which I thought was loaded was obvious too!

 

[njc110381]

Njc, I just realized what others have said. Your load is way too light. QuickLoad came up with 101 Gr. of RL - 22 for a velocity of 2442 FPS. My loads produce just over 2400 FPS with a different powder. Load up a few at the higher charge weight and give it a go. It seems like a lot of us including me overlooked the obvious.

Is that 101gr max load on QL or is that the start load? Thanks for checking that out for me, much appreciated.

 

[Shootist43]

That is a max load. QuickLoad tends to be on the conservative side. The 2400 FPS +/- is pretty standard stuff for projectiles in the 400 Gr. range.

 

[Patrik D]

Start inside safe range according to Norma.

What brand of brass do you use?

If your rifle begins to shoot better on higher loads you may be able to exeed Normas maxload if you have some premium brass... if not, stay on the safe side.

 

[mdwest]

I have cracked 2 stocks from a lead sled. A 375 and a 416. Apparently I had too much weight on the sled with 50lbs. Now I never put more than 25 lbs and have had no problems.

Ive got a 375 and a 416 that I have shot pretty extensively on a lead sled when working up loads, zeroing optics, etc.. never had a problem with either.. but I also have never put any additional weight on the sled.. I just use it "as is"..

I've contemplated throwing an additional 5-10lbs on when shooting the 416 as it can get a bit hard on the shoulder after 20+ rounds when doing load development.. glad to see you havent had any issues after dropping to 25lbs or less.. I was a little concerned I might be pushing my limits with the 416 by adding on some weight..